Methylation, all those Bs and Potassium Redux

[Kathevans]

Ok. I’ve definitely fallen down that rabbit hole.

Many of you say that the first few months on this methylation protocol were tough and I can’t wait to get to the point where I can look back over my shoulder and smile knowingly. But right now that seems far, far away.

In the meantime, I’m hoping some of you might have some thoughts I could add to the mix.

I’ve fiddled with the B-Complex to get totals down in order to have a truer measure of my needs. And because I realized that something about them was making my pain much worse.

Here’s question #1. Just because you go off all supps for 4 days prior to taking the NutreEval Test, does that mean they’re out of your system and the evaluation is accurate? I’ll give them a call Monday. Meanwhile, let’s assume that yes, it’s accurate.

In that case, I’m:

Normal in A, E, CoQ10, Niacin-B3, Biotion –B7, Magnesium, Manganese & Molybdenum
Borderline in C, Thiamine-B1, Pyridoxing-B6, folic Acit-B9, cobalamin-B12 and Zinc.
High Need in a-Lipoic Acid and Riboflavin-B2

After stopping my B-complex, my heart went haywire—pvcs and afib, a trip to the ER—I titrated it back up to ½ tablet/day, a quarter of what I’d been taking, and things settled down heart-wise. Pretty much. Here’s what that looks like:

So, ½ Country Life Coenzyme B TABLET IS:

Thiamine (B1 as from Thiamine Hydrochloride) (Thianine cocarboxylase chloride) 12.5 mg
Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) (as riboflavin, riboflavin 5’phosphate) 12.5 mg
Niacin (as inositol hexaniacinate) 25 mg
Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine HCl, pyridoxal, 5’phosphate, pyridoxine alpha-ketoglutarate HCL) 20 mg
Folate (as Folic Acid,(6S)-5-Methyletrahydrofolate-glucosamine salt) 200 mcg
Vitamin B-12 (as dibencozide, methycobalamin) 125 mcg
Biotin (as d-Biotin) 50 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (as pantethine, calcium d-pantothenate) 12.5 mg
PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid)12.5 mg
Phosphatidylcholine (from soy)10 mg
Inositol (from Inositol Hexaniacinate) 6.5 mg
Alpha-Lipoic Acid 25 mcg

The B-12 isn’t sublingual and I know that’s a problem. So, hoping to get around sleep/anxiety issues (MAOA?), I added FMN for about 2 weeks. Initially, it did something good. Then I spiraled into sleeplessness and depression, so I moved on.

…to the sublingual MeB12, ¼ tab each morning. This lasted 5 days—I admit I pushed. I never slept well on it. I couldn’t go to sleep at all. 2 ½ mg valium helped a bit, and melatonin helped a bit. Still, I was exhausted—no more than 4-5 hours of disjointed sleep—and miserable and felt beat up every morning, so I decided to call it quits.

I must be a start low and go slow candidate. Unless—given the TCN1 & TCN2 snps I just realized I have—my alterna-doc decides I could use some lithium orotate. However, I found a thread:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transcobalamin-deficiency.23027/,

where @Freddd says: “The presence or lack there of of TC2 makes no difference to directly absorbed AdoCbl and/or MeCbl.”

So? Question #2:

Experience in this realm? The TCN/MeB12/lithium orotate axis? Or have any of you very sensitive ones found that you tolerate AdoCbl better than MeCbl? (I’m referring to sleep here!)

OR:

The start low and go slow road? If I mash up the MeB12 and divide it (eyeball it?) into 32 sections, can I knife the crumbs into a gel-cap to thumb under my gums on subsequent days? Or do I need to start over each day because the MeB12 will degrade?

Finally (so sorry for the length), but I guess this is the good news. I think once I stopped the high level B-Complex, my body has been methylating somewhat because I developed a new horrible symptom—a tightening of my face, my cheeks especially, as if I’m grimacing, clenching my jaw, and along with this, a frontal headache.

It came on gradually, more and more, and I began to experiment with potassium to alleviate it. When I take the MeB12, it doesn’t appear—though granted I took no more than ¼ of the 1000 mcg tablet, absorbing (as per Freddd) about 80 mcg or 30% of that 250 mcg tablet. The ½ B Complex doesn’t seem to bring about the symptoms… 300 mg K/day seem to be sufficient.

Still trying to increase some of the other Bs I’m deficient in, I ordered and tried ½ Tablet of Dr. Ben Lynch’s Seeking Health B-Minus, which contains:

Thiamin (as thiamin hydrochloride) 12.5 mg
Riboflavin (as riboflavin-5'-phosphate sodium) 10 mg
Niacin (as inositol hexanicotinate and niacin) 90 mg
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxal-5'-phosphate) 10 mg
Biotin 250 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate) 75 mg

I took the tablet at 3:30 yesterday and my symptoms of potassium deficiency began an hour later. I began modestly with a 270 mg dose at 4:30, seemed fine till that night after less than an hour of sleep, I woke with an aching face and head. I took ½ tsp of potassium gluconate—270 mg each, at about 1:30, 2:30 and 5. The second dose gave me a head rush (blood pressure issues?) and the third enough relief that I slept three hours. My problem with all this potassium is that when I reach supplementation at these levels, I wake with a sore kidney area. I thought that would only happen if your body wasn’t using it. I’m totally confused. How about @ahmo’s foot baths? How do you know how much you absorb?

Question #3: Today I have no symptoms, only exhaustion. I know that FMN, in particular, is a cofactor of folate. Are some of the other active Bs cofactors as well? I haven’t gotten that far in my understanding. Given that NutrEval says I have ‘Normal’ levels of Niacin and Biotin, should I be taking a supp with such high levels? Should I just take my Bs individually?

This is long and for any of you who get to the end, thanks for reading. Any thoughts are much appreciated.

Kathleen

 

[PeterPositive]

The start low and go slow road? If I mash up the MeB12 and divide it (eyeball it?) into 32 sections, can I knife the crumbs into a gel-cap to thumb under my gums on subsequent days? Or do I need to start over each day because the MeB12 will degrade?

I am not able to answer all of your question. As regards this, it won't degrade. MeB12 is stable at normal temperatures, just make sure to keep it away from direct light and you should be fine.

In general to go low and slow means to start with RDA doses of the vitamins or even fractions of those. For me it was definitely fractions, for the first couple of months. The 1/2 Country Life tablet is already pretty high dosage for starting... You may need to cut in 1/2 a second time.

The TCN/MeB12/lithium orotate axis? Or have any of you very sensitive ones found that you tolerate AdoCbl better than MeCbl? (I’m referring to sleep here!)

Surely Ado-B12 is easier than the methyl form, as the latter crosses the brain blood barrier and it's active in the nervous system.
I've tried Lithium Orotate as a supposed "booster" for B12 and folate with no results, other seem to have found some help, though.

I have no experience with the whole potassium business as I've never had any problems with it.

cheers

 

[ahmo]

How about @ahmo’s foot baths? How do you know how much you absorb?

Sorry it's being such a trial, Kath. I only know how much I absorb by asking my body, self-testing. If I'm still feeling symptoms, or unsure, I ask body if it wants more (or less). I believe I was absorbing things equally by mouth or footbath, but with higher doses of K+, much more pleasant to not drink it.

I just checked Promethease, I appear to have a number of TCN snps, but know nothing about them. But I can say that as my B12 and folate needs have decreased during the past month, so have my Lithium needs, again by self-testing. No longer daily Lithium.

Are some of the other active Bs cofactors as well?

I don't know the answer. @caledonia might. Otherwise, you might create a new thread asking that in the title.

 

[Kathevans]

Thanks @ahmo I'm going to have to revisit your self testing video. I have tried it, initially using a leaning forward or back technique, and I'll try the hand one again. I've just never grown to trust it...

Oh, and the TCN SNPs stand for transcobalamine something or other and have to do with transporting the MeB12 into the cells.

 

[caledonia]

Hi Kathevans,

You can get a lot more information out of the Nutreval than the report that comes with it by using the Nutreval Interpretation Guide (see my signature link).

I have another document called Start Low and Go Slow which may be helpful.

In general, all the B vitamins work together, but at this time you may not be able to tolerate the amounts suggested on the Nutreval test.

Your SNPs are showing that B12 is actually a bigger issue for you than folate.

I also do self muscle testing, but have found that it's difficult to test electrolytes (such as potassium) for amounts because the muscle testing relies on having a good electrolyte balance to transmit good electrical signals. I've also had trouble testing for B12 and folate amounts to due the delayed effect from getting methylation cranking.

So trial and error works better for me in this instance.

 

[Kathevans]

Yes, I've added your wonderful compilations @caledonia to my ever-growing 'Healing' binder. Your NutrEval guide is highlighted and noted from start to finish. Many thanks for the effort you've extended for this and all the others. In fact, I've got a couple of them downloaded on my iPad for quick reference in the middle of the night!

I can see that the self-testing is where I have to begin and to be patient with it. This and the 'Low and Slow' guide.

Yes, B-12 is clearly an issue for me. When I realized this over the past months, it was obvious why the first thing I said to my doctor nearly 20 years ago when I first got sick was that my muscles weren't working. I may have to start with your toothpick method!

Also, I do understand that my B-Complex at the levels I'm ingesting gives me 200 mcg of folate that my cells may not be able to use given not enough B-12. At two tablets a day, this was definitely causing me more and more pain given a paradoxical folate insufficiency. But the 1/2 at least resolves most of my heart irregularity issues, so I'm just going to have to go at it from the inside out.

Once I rebalance with a bit more sleep, that is...

 

[Gondwanaland]

a sore kidney area

I would get that from both oral supplementation and foot baths re potassium and even Magnesium glycinate which I do not tolerate due to oxalates. Potassium supplementation is a huge roadblock for me

 

[Kathevans]

@Gondwanaland Very interesting to hear. I'm heading to the docs tomorrow and I'll ask about other forms of Potassium... I've read about slow-release, also about potassium table 'salt' and so forth. You know I have the oxalate issue as well, so that may be part of the problem. More water may help, but I'm already floating!

 

[Gondwanaland]

K+ Citrate is the way to go with oxalates... But I never tried it, haven't been taking potassium in a long time.

 

[sunking101]

I'm sensitive to *everything* and get awful palpitations from glycinates. I do fine with TwinLabs Potassium Citrate caps.

 

[Kathevans]

Thank you both @Gondwanaland and @sunking101 I've never tried Potassium Citrate and I'll add it on my next iHerb order. My initial fear--that Potassium Gluconate would bother my stomach--hasn't come to pass. Just the kidneys... and seemingly when I add more of it--800-1000+/day. Maybe I'll have to go with more high potassium foods. But I haven't been able to eat bananas for years because they give me a stomach ache and I've avoided coconut water because of the sugars and so on and so forth. The dietary box I've back into seems to get smaller and smaller....

 

[Gondwanaland]

I don't know if potassium citrate is available in powder, I dislike the fact that you can only find 99mg caps/tabs (I usually take far smaller doses).

I haven't been able to eat bananas for years because they give me a stomach ache

I used to eat bananas (the large type) daily and it took me years to associate it with the skin problems I had - I even took accutane for it
Nowadays I only eat the small ones. Not sure if they are lower in ox by their small size or if this type has indeed less ox/volume.

After my salicylate crises I became intolerant to coconut stuff...

As I told you, I never took K citrate, but when I took Mg citrate I usually got some tinnitus and some discomfort - not sure exactly how to describe it - that could be ox dump? IDK, so just a word of caution. We might not tolerate potassium exactly because we have some uncovered kidney issues - knock on wood...

 

[sunking101]

I don't know if potassium citrate is available in powder, I dislike the fact that you can only find 99mg caps/tabs (I usually take far smaller doses).

I used to eat bananas (the large type) daily and it took me years to associate it with the skin problems I had - I even took accutane for it
Nowadays I only eat the small ones. Not sure if they are lower in ox by their small size or if this type has indeed less ox/volume.

After my salicylate crises I became intolerant to coconut stuff...

As I told you, I never took K citrate, but when I took Mg citrate I usually got some tinnitus and some discomfort - not sure exactly how to describe it - that could be ox dump? IDK, so just a word of caution. We might not tolerate potassium exactly because we have some uncovered kidney issues - knock on wood...

I'm salicylate-intolerant also, which is a real shame because it means that I have to avoid lots of excellent supplements such as coconut oil etc.

As for potassium capsules, I'm amazed that you find 99mg too much as it's only 3% of the RDA. There is far more potassium in one small banana. If you take them with food you shouldn't notice that you've even had one. If you buy capsules you can always get hold of some empty veggie caps (iHerb and Ebay sell them) and then halve the caps or whatever.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I'm salicylate-intolerant also, which is a real shame because it means that I have to avoid lots of excellent supplements such as coconut oil etc.

I reversed my sal intolerance with magnesium oxide, but unfortunately coconut products had to stay out of my diet.

As for potassium capsules, I'm amazed that you find 99mg too much as it's only 3% of the RDA.

I am amazed too. Perhaps it is due to low vit B1, I don't know.

If you buy capsules you can always get hold of some empty veggie caps (iHerb and Ebay sell them) and then halve the caps or whatever.

I do have empty caps at home for other stuff - I usually must divide all my supps. Thanks for the idea.

 

[NilaJones]

Can you eat potatoes? Very high in potassium.

 

[Kathevans]

I love potatoes! But didn't eat them for years because of their starchiness and the fear they'd feed candida. But now, with all the resistant starch stuff, well, it seems that this is just what we want in our gut. Who knew? Unfortunately, potatoes are high oxalate. The red-skinned ones apparently have far less than the good old Idaho. They seem to be low to medium oxalate if you can figure out their provenance--good luck with that. And you still need to peel them (though I tend to cheat). And the figures are based on 1/2 cup of potato (and I tend to cheat on this, too). Let's face it, dietary restrictions are the pits! I'm eating a lot of white rice and sprucing it up with low ox veggies and spices.

I've also discovered that yogurt can be high in potassium and eating it is a real treat for me as I've been off dairy for years and years.

I've got to revisit lists of potassium food sources...

 

[Gondwanaland]

I've also discovered that yogurt can be high in potassium and eating it is a real treat for me as I've been off dairy for years and years.

I think the wisest thing I did lately was to reintroduce diary in my diet (no milk). It has the calcium I need, less the ox. PLUS a lot of lysine, see the study I posted on lysine dissolving ox stones at the ox thread (link in my sig).

Yes, we have to be careful with potatoes.

If you tolerate it, avocado is a good source of potassium, I am just not sure how much of it is really absorbable since K+ and fat don't mix well. And coconut water and milk, they are the staples for the low-ox folks (not me though).

 

[Kathevans]

@Gondwanaland Thanks for the heads up about lysine. I had no idea. I'll check it out. And, yes, I'm on to coconut water--though I'd avoided it because of the sugars. Oh well. As to avocado, sadly, it's one of two foods I'm allergic to (along with salmon). So I have to avoid it. But as you say, the fat content may make its potassium contribution less certain...

 

[Kathevans]

Eat up! (after subtracting high ox foods!)

Potassium and Nutrition Facts - Top 201 Foods
a banana, an apple, an egg, an orange, wine, grapes, watermelon, chicken breast, beer, strawberries, alcohol, avocado, coffee, rice, blueberries, chicken, egg whites, red wine, pizza, broccoli, salmon, sugar, carrots, almonds, shrimp, cucumber, steak, honey, a pear, popcorn, milk, pineapple, lettuce, bacon, cantaloupe, orange, a bagel, a peach, celery, oatmeal, butter, cherries, grapefruit, pasta, brown rice, tomatoes, mushrooms, potatoes, baked potato, bread, white rice, peanut butter, cheese, corn, salad, a big mac, a potato, white wine, a slice of pizza, french fries, hard boiled egg, sweet potato, nuts, orange juice, green beans, tuna, skim milk, fish, butternut squash, peanuts, hamburger, green grapes, cottage cheese, yogurt, brown sugar, olives, cheesecake, pumpkin seeds, feta cheese, meatloaf, quinoa, a mango, beef, chilis, cheerios, chips, cod, coke, granola, iceberg lettuce, mango, pecans, raisins, saltine crackers, soy milk, spinach, spirulina, turkey, turkey breast, tuna salad, walnuts, whole milk, oats, cabbage, beets, beans, garbanzo beans, mayonnaise, fried chicken, tofu, kiwi, lentils, pomegranate, kale, black beans, coconut, jello, ice cream, dates, spaghetti, kidney beans, hot dog, cheddar cheese, hummus, eggplant, white bread, lemon, zucchini, tangerine, nectarines, artichokes, plums, whole wheat bread, coconut milk, ham, cranberries, apricots, honeydew, papaya, prunes, prune juice, ricotta, halibut, sea bass, scallops, deer, cauliflower, olive oil, garlic, apple juice, cranberry juice, asparagus, barley, basil, peppers, pepper, brussel sprouts, buckwheat, cashews, cheddar, chili peppers, coriander, doughnuts, dill, fennel, figs, flaxseed, tea, onions, lamb, yams, hazelnuts, leeks, goats cheese, lima beans, millet, shiitake mushrooms, rosemary, sardines, mustard greens, navy beans, parsley, pinto beans, rye, sausages, sesame seeds, soy sauce, soybeans, summer squash, winter squash, sunflower seeds, swiss chard, thyme, tempeh, turnip greens, a shake, a cheeseburger, nachos, chocolate, a granola bar, chia seeds
Read more at http://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/potassium.php#DXm4SMYH1LtRdKfY.99

 

[Gondwanaland]

There is a lot of stuff to strike thru there for us