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methyl trap please help

Messages
70
I bet your triggers are folate and fructose. Your 'back' cramps may actually be referred pain from liver cramps. Although that could be a bias toward my only point of reference which is my own personal experiences.

As first point of call, I suggest trying high dose (although be conservative at first) niacinamide (NOT niacin), choline bitartrate, myo-inositol, and magnesium. Avoid b2 and folate. I can suggest other things but those are the first I would look at. Otherwise eat an ordinary diet low in the triggers I mentioned.
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
Neck tightness is a low potassium symptom for me. Especially muscles at the side of the neck.
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
I think when i started the b12 i had all that folate trapped it it started the methyalation cycle lowering potassium.

I ate a banana after the b12 felt great !. and less brain fog... so it seems like i was in a methyltrap.

Im still waking up with inflamed joints and sore muscles everyday. This only started from methylfolate.. SO im hoping after a week or so of taking 1mg b12 only and getting potassium this goes away. Also taking 100mg niacin before bed to try cool things off.
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
took 500mcg b12 in the morning. Made me pretty tired.

took 500mcg in the afternoon. gave me a headache and made me feel spaced out.....

why would my body not want b12.. lol...
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
vegetables and fruits are still giving me face/nose pressure and anxiety.

methylb12 still making me spaced and anxious.

amrs and legs feeling weak...

acording to fred i need to megadose folate to get out of this hell.... but i still dont know whats wrong... all i know is that i was fine before touching methylation...
 

PatJ

Forum Support Assistant
Messages
5,288
Location
Canada
I've just found some notes that I took when I was researching Freddd's treatment. Maybe these will be useful for you. The information comes from Freddd's posts and isn't medical advice.

Methyltrap
* Caused by: a deficiency of MethlyB12
* Prevented by: taking at least 1mg (100mcg absorbed) of MB12 per day; avoiding NAC, glutathione or glutathione precursors.
* How to get out: take at least 1mg (100mcg absorbed) of MB12 and Adb12 (dibencozide) with 800mcg l-methylfolate per day

* Can be caused by not taking enough, poor absorption, blocked absorption, induced deficiency
* Cells need MB12 but it isn't available so they expel l-methylfolate which leads to folate deficiency symptoms. This appears paradoxical -- the body has lots of folate but can't use it so sends signals that imply it needs more folate. What it really needs is B12, the missing factor that will allow it to use the existing folate.
* The size of the MF dose is totally irrelevant when in MT
* Symptoms have a hard onset (over a few days) compared to Paradoxical Folate Deficiency which usually has a slow and gentle onset. If PFD symptoms suddenly arise then you're probably in MT.
* NAC and glutathione cause the same symptoms but also prevent B12 from helping
* If you wake terribly sick one morning and many more symptoms take shape over the next week then you're probably in MT and possibly Partial ATP Block (I think the Adb12 helps relieve the partial atp block)

According to Freddd the MB12 and Adb12 should be taken in the upper gum pouch (between lip and gum) for better absorption. High quality MB12 such as Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion, or Country Life brand are recommended.
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
Today took

1200mcg methtlfolate
1500mcg metylb12
B complex


ZERO low potassium. .. what on earth is happening here.... 200mcg folate gave me insatiable potassium loss last time. Now nothing. I think i felt a bit better after my folate dose then got sleepy. The tingling in my feet went away over the last week but now i have a weird weakness sensation in my arms.. kimda like restless arms. I can do push ups fine tho they just feel light. "perceived weakness i guess":

So seeing that im not losing potassium from even 1200 folate would one say i have donut hole folate insufficiency?

Keep upping the dose till i get potassium loss?

Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

Old symptoms returning

Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,

THe symptoms of this are very broad lol... Im not really sure if i have it but what i bolded and underlined is what i have

The main thing is i just dont feel right, something feels off, music sounds very bad now when it didnt before.

And also 1200methylfolate did nothing to my potassium when it destroyed it in the past.

SO what do you say guys? should i megadose foate? didnt get much worse today or better. eaten a high sodium no potassium diet feel fine electrolyte wise.

done niacin last few days and it just made me the same if not worse. The fact is im not dropping potassium which means that the methylaiton cycle isnt cranking. ANd if 1200 folate doesnt do jack what does that tell me? keep upping the dose?
 
Last edited:

Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,401
Brother, all of these things you mention have happened to me. I have different reactions to the same supplement different times of the day and sometines if i take a break and start up again i have entirely different reactions than ever before. Makes it very hard to monitor.

What you need to do is back off of everyrhing for a bit and stabilize out. Its so easy to get caught up in wanting to take a supplement to counter another supplement but its a rabbit hole that never ends. Get off everything you can safely, get your sleep/wake cycles in order and your diet. Figure out what foods are good and bad for you and establish your baseline.

Once you have a baseline that you know is stable and you're comfortable then you can start adding supplements ONE AT A TIME. Also, im going to say this- Freddd is very poor at explaining things and makes them super complicated. Also, he thinks that every single problem people have is methyl trap or b12/folate deficiency because thats what HE had. Its frustrating at times.

I would recommend you start with Rich Vank's protocol, it will give you a much simpler, easier way to start things up. My doctor, who is very well versed in methylation, also urged me to start with Rich's protocol. Here is how she recommended i start:

After the sleep and diet are solid:

1) start taking a b-multi that doesnt have b12 or folate. I use half a cap of seeking health's B Minus but there are others.

2) start with mb12. Slowly titrate your way up. I got to a buffer of at least 5 mg before i started adding and increasing mfolate.

3) then you can start mfolate at a low dose and slowly titrate up. IMPORTANT- only change one supplement/factor at a time and hold there for a few days before changing anything else. It's frustrating but its necessary to maintain your baseline.

Things will get easier once you mitigate how many factors there are, right now you have a ton. One thing at a time man, and you'll be fine.
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
hey mate

thanks for the tips i think i will take your advice.

My concern is that i am stuck in a folate donut hole and i cannot get out without high dose folate.

I came off everything for 3 weeks and ate healthy etc. But i ended up making this thread because i started reacting to carrots and juice. Before i touched mfolate i ate 10 carrots juiced a day zero problems. Now 1 carrot gives me anxiety/depression head pressure etc.

So im not really sure what to do. I want nothing to do with methylation but now i cannot stop thhem and eat healthy because i react to carrots !

all i can think is what fred said.. when you react to vegies you need to megadose folate.
 

caledonia

Senior Member
My health problems are

-chronic constipaiton (severe gut dysbiosis from antibiotics)
-Low free cortisol (causing hypothyroid temps)
-keratosis pilaris and acne (caused from dysbiosis)

My stool test showed an overgrowth of klebseilla and citrobacter... thats all i know.. ive had constipiaton all my life so i probably have many nutrient deficiency.

This answers a lot of questions. You had told me (I think via PM?) that you were healthy before experimenting with methylation supps. You reported being able to work out. I had assumed you had ME since 98% of people on this board do.

So, to clarify, you're generally healthy, but have gut issues and adrenal issues.

Assuming this is the case (and even assuming it's not), my suggestion would be (once again) to stop experimenting with methylation supplements. It doesn't make any sense to keep taking the things that made you feel bad in the first place.

Forget about Freddd and his theories of methyl trapping, folate insufficiency or whatever. The more you take methyl supplements, the more you're going to screw yourself up. The only way to get better is to stop and let them wash out of your system. They will eventually wear off. Your body will naturally go back to it's natural state of balance.

Then, your next issue is gut dysbiosis. No matter if you have ME or not, you should always start treatment with the gut. Methylation supplements will not fix gut dysbiosis. You're taking the wrong supplements.

Your next issue sounds like adrenal fatigue and possibly hypothyroidism. You should be under a doctor's care to address these hormones. You need to get to the root issue of why you have these problems. You may have toxic metals such as mercury and need to chelate those out. You may need to take supplements or medications directly for these problems while you're healing the root cause.

I suggest using the Cutler frequent dose chelation method for chelation and not any other method. If you don't take chelators on a schedule every few hours (the half life of the chelator), you may get mercury redistribution and feel much worse.

Methylation supplements may or may not be helpful for the adrenals and thyroid. They may be helpful for detox support while you're chelating.

My suggestion would be to find a functional medicine doctor to help you with these issues. Functional medicine doctors are regular doctors who are also knowledgeable in naturopathic medicine.

The Institute for Functional Medicine (IFM) has the most comprehensive program for the gut that I have seen anywhere. I was surprised to find a wide selection of practitioners in my area: https://www.functionalmedicine.org/practitioner_search.aspx?id=117

They also have basic courses on methylation, which some practitioners may have taken. You should ask prospective doctors if they are experienced with the IFM gut rebuilding program and treating adrenal fatigue and the thyroid. If they know anything about methylation, that's a plus.

Unfortunately, the IFM chelation program is not a frequent dose program. I suggest using the online Cutler frequent dose chelation support groups for this (if it ends up you have to chelate).

=-==-=-=-=

As far as why are you having bad reactions to supplements and vegetables - the gut dysbiosis explains this. If you have gut dysbiosis, you probably have leaky gut. If you have leaky gut, you have a leaky blood/brain barrier. So basically anything you eat has a chance of causing a systemic reaction in your body and affecting your brain.

The only way to get out of this is to treat the gut first. Then if you need more help, you can proceed with other treatments in order. It's like peeling back the layers of an onion. You may need a combination of treatments - gut, adrenal, thyroid, chelation, and fixing any nutrient deficiencies to get total healing. You may or may not need to fix your methylation cycle.
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
Okay thanks for the detailed response. Yes i will let things clear out.

My only concern was the vegetables. Ive had severe dysbiosis for years and i could eat 10 vegetables in one sitting no issues. Now since starting methylation i can't eat one. Thats why i feared something had to be done.

I will just continue my b complex and hope things come around.
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
Got some more bloodwork

25-OH Vit D: 199 nmol/L (51-140) HIGH

Vit b12 688 pmol/L (>170)

Serum Folate 30.8 nmol/L (>5.9)

Guess i can stop taking my vitd.
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
This answers a lot of questions. You had told me (I think via PM?) that you were healthy before experimenting with methylation supps. You reported being able to work out. I had assumed you had ME since 98% of people on this board do.

So, to clarify, you're generally healthy, but have gut issues and adrenal issues.

Assuming this is the case (and even assuming it's not), my suggestion would be (once again) to stop experimenting with methylation supplements. It doesn't make any sense to keep taking the things that made you feel bad in the first place.

Forget about Freddd and his theories of methyl trapping, folate insufficiency or whatever. The more you take methyl supplements, the more you're going to screw yourself up. The only way to get better is to stop and let them wash out of your system. They will eventually wear off. Your body will naturally go back to it's natural state of balance.

Then, your next issue is gut dysbiosis. No matter if you have ME or not, you should always start treatment with the gut. Methylation supplements will not fix gut dysbiosis. You're taking the wrong supplements.

Your next issue sounds like adrenal fatigue and possibly hypothyroidism. You should be under a doctor's care to address these hormones. You need to get to the root issue of why you have these problems. You may have toxic metals such as mercury and need to chelate those out. You may need to take supplements or medications directly for these problems while you're healing the root cause.

I suggest using the Cutler frequent dose chelation method for chelation and not any other method. If you don't take chelators on a schedule every few hours (the half life of the chelator), you may get mercury redistribution and feel much worse.

Methylation supplements may or may not be helpful for the adrenals and thyroid. They may be helpful for detox support while you're chelating.

My suggestion would be to find a functional medicine doctor to help you with these issues. Functional medicine doctors are regular doctors who are also knowledgeable in naturopathic medicine.

The Institute for Functional Medicine (IFM) has the most comprehensive program for the gut that I have seen anywhere. I was surprised to find a wide selection of practitioners in my area: https://www.functionalmedicine.org/practitioner_search.aspx?id=117

They also have basic courses on methylation, which some practitioners may have taken. You should ask prospective doctors if they are experienced with the IFM gut rebuilding program and treating adrenal fatigue and the thyroid. If they know anything about methylation, that's a plus.

Unfortunately, the IFM chelation program is not a frequent dose program. I suggest using the online Cutler frequent dose chelation support groups for this (if it ends up you have to chelate).

=-==-=-=-=

As far as why are you having bad reactions to supplements and vegetables - the gut dysbiosis explains this. If you have gut dysbiosis, you probably have leaky gut. If you have leaky gut, you have a leaky blood/brain barrier. So basically anything you eat has a chance of causing a systemic reaction in your body and affecting your brain.

The only way to get out of this is to treat the gut first. Then if you need more help, you can proceed with other treatments in order. It's like peeling back the layers of an onion. You may need a combination of treatments - gut, adrenal, thyroid, chelation, and fixing any nutrient deficiencies to get total healing. You may or may not need to fix your methylation cycle.

Hi i seem to be stuck in a catch 22.

How do i heal the gut with Low cortisol (hpa axis issue)

If i take hydrocortisone my constipation goes away and i can tolerate antimicrobials and fiber.

If i dont take hydrocortisone fiber constipates me and i crash from antimicrobials... lol...

But on hydrocortisone i get all sorts of issues like potassium loss its a real mess on the stuff.

I dont know what to do.. I think i might need fecal transplant to heal my gut...
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
hey guys.

pondering the possibility of mercury poisoning.... my adrenals were fine 8 months ago. Then i took a multivitamin that had 25mg ALA in it everyday for next 6 months... now adrenals 0

could be why i felt sick from methylation................ not sure...........

im getting muscle twitches now.

i took goldenseal and got severe brainfog and dry mouhth + metallic taste in mouth.

i think goldenseal helps liver ...

so maybe im full of mercury?

what should i do?

thanks..............
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
I think i have developed CFS/ME now.

I can not eat anythign without getting severe depression and anxiety.

Never had these problems before even though ive had constipation for years. It only came after the methylaiton crash.

ive been bed ridden for days. If i eat just one bit of fruit or a caroot i get suicidal thoughts etc. I did a test yesterday and ate NOTHING for 24 hours and felt so good zero anxity or depression.

So somehoe methylation crash made me intolerant to all foods... or just eating in general..................
 
Messages
61
This guy seems living a hell, I'm concerned about him.
As others said, I think you need stop and wait until you recover. I also did bad things with methyl supplements, but not so bad like you did. I'm just waiting until I recover to my baseline.