Methyl folate severe crash

[Tuskentank]

The low energy thing too, I felt like I could have run a marathon after taking the methylfolate sublingually, but was reading what Rich had said about toxic overproduction of nitric oxide (?) and the potential dangers of pushing too hard that way. It did feel more inflammatory the first day I took it, after a while.

Did you feel overstimulated on methylfolate and then increase or was it fatigue? The low energy is my norm, although I can walk about. The general nausea went away too when I took the B12 and lower dose methylfolate too and the wheezing was milder. Just the constipation was worse.

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia ,

Was looking at how you tackled gut issues with Methylation as well. I'm struggling to tackle my gut issues at the minute. I know I have SIBO C because taking things like onions leaves me really sick and bloated and still constipated with wind and cramps all night.

I've been taking Allimed and interphase, and had slowly been coming back to being able to go to the toilet. But since starting the metfolin and swallowing it, I'm constipated again.

Just curious what diet you followed? Between low thiols and anti candida, and SIBO diets, I'm considering a glucose drip...

I'm about to get my 23andme done so will be better clued in as far as methylation goes.

I'm impressed beyond words that you can balance chelation of mercury, methylation and gut rehabilitation.

In fact, all those on this forum from Freddd and Rich right through, you are the pioneers of what will become the future of health treatment. I feel privileged genuinely.

Not to mention I'm in the middle of a what's turned into 9 year taper off Zoloft.

The gut I had mostly worked out prior to doing methylation. I had the methylation worked out prior to doing chelation. The only problem is the length of time it can take if you do things one at a time.

Diet - I've settled on "Zone" type diet, but I include starchy carbs because I have adrenal fatigue and my blood sugar drops unless my brain gets a good hit of carbs. So at all meals and snacks I eat protein, carbs and fat. No sugar or sweeteners. Keeping my blood sugar in the "zone" seems to work for candida.

When I started methylation supps I ran into the CBS issue and did the CBS protocol along with a low thiol diet for 3 months. Then I was able to tolerate B12 and get my methylation worked out.

I may be lucky in that I got my CBS pathway working and haven't so far needed to continue the low thiol diet like some people.

ps. constipation upon taking methylfolate - maybe a sign you need more mag. Mag is a co-factor in the methylation cycle somewhere around methionine and SAMe.

 

[Tuskentank]

Not to mention I'm in the middle of a what's turned into 9 year taper off Zoloft.

The gut I had mostly worked out prior to doing methylation. I had the methylation worked out prior to doing chelation. The only problem is the length of time it can take if you do things one at a time.

Diet - I've settled on "Zone" type diet, but I include starchy carbs because I have adrenal fatigue and my blood sugar drops unless my brain gets a good hit of carbs. So at all meals and snacks I eat protein, carbs and fat. No sugar or sweeteners. Keeping my blood sugar in the "zone" seems to work for candida.

When I started methylation supps I ran into the CBS issue and did the CBS protocol along with a low thiol diet for 3 months. Then I was able to tolerate B12 and get my methylation worked out.

I may be lucky in that I got my CBS pathway working and haven't so far needed to continue the low thiol diet like some people.

ps. constipation upon taking methylfolate - maybe a sign you need more mag. Mag is a co-factor in the methylation cycle somewhere around methionine and SAMe.

It's good to hear someone else talk about needing starchy carbs, Caledonia.

I eat potatoes two or three times a day. I'll add more magnesium during the day too. I went through multiple psych drug withdrawal a few years back, benzos and SSRI, and olanzapine at one point so I know how brutal that can be.

Have you tried the daily microtaper? It's what got me off diazepam. Thanks for the response, I'm finally going to get my tests done now, so 23andme and NutrEval and Doctors Data hair test to start.

I've read some of your responses to others' results, I take it you have a science background? Really impressive stuff. I have a son studying to be a doctor, and I've directed him to Methylation. He said that genetics and tailor made approaches to individual variations are becoming a big part of modern medicine.

Watching me in ill health, he knows what I'm going through. He'll be a sympathetic healer.

 

[Eastman]

A reminder that gastrointestinal symptoms like nausea and constipation and burning pain in the legs have also been attributed to B1 deficiency.

If you feel overstimulated and losing potassium, you may be producing too much aldosterone.

...the adrenals produce mineralocorticoids like aldosterone - especially important for fluid and electrolyte balance, and as Greg said - when we start using b12 without enough b2 in our system, we get flooded with adrenalin and this triggers massive aldosterone dumping into the bloodstream, which in turn lowers potassium. The reason is because our adrenals don't work properly after years of b12 deficiency and so they don't make enough adrenalin (or cortisol if it goes on long enough). So there are tons of adrenalin precursors hanging around which get triggered when b12 is added...

A similar explanation here.

 

[Tuskentank]

A reminder that gastrointestinal symptoms like nausea and constipation and burning pain in the legs have also been attributed to B1 deficiency.

If you feel overstimulated and losing potassium, you may be producing too much aldosterone.



A similar explanation here.

Thanks, Eastman. I've added extra B1 and will see as I increase it how I go. This is tricky, and it does feel like I use B12 up too quickly. I've ordered liquid methylfolate as my constipation is really bad again.

I get nausea from taking extra potassium and I know I have weak adrenals. I feel a bit better on the B1.

Thing is, it feels like I really need the methylfolate. I took extra today and felt better? I swallowed it as opposed to sublingual. It seems I need to find the balance with B12, and take both at the same time. I feel some improvements, but not sure how often to take the B12 and methylfolate in a day.

I feel energised and a bit shakey from the betaine.

@PatJ

How often did you take the B12 and methylfolate in a day?

Can anyone offer me some guidelines for this or is it a case of everyone has to feel it out for themselves?

Is it possible that I need more methylfolate proportionate to B12?

Do I stop taking it earlier in the day?

I've taken 800mcg methylfolate today in 4 split doses since 8am, am moving it up quickly as it seems to settle the "shakey leg" thing. The wheezing is milder too, but still there.

Can the TMG in betaine HCL expose a need for more methylfolate?

I'm sorry, folks, I have so many questions, but it feels like I'm close to something.

I've been able to take more methylfolate today, and some symptoms are milder.

I think paradoxical folate deficiency is what I'm experiencing.

Should I stop for today? How do we know when to ease off for the day?

 

[PatJ]

the burning isn't limited to my stomach, it comes in my legs as well

Does it feel like a lactic acid burn? Does the burn reduce if you take baking soda (1/2 tsp in water)? The baking soda can help to neutralize acidity in the body. Some people here find that it helps to reduce PEM.

I can take 3 capsules per meal now and it's only mildly stimulating.

That's good to hear.

Did you feel overstimulated on methylfolate and then increase or was it fatigue?

I don't remember ever feeling overstimulated by methlyfolate, even when taking 25grams per day, but it has been a couple of years since I stopped Freddd's treatment (I still take 1600mcg of methylfolate and 500mcg of methylB12 per day). I could feel a little weird if I took 15-50mg of methylB12. I would sometimes take a huge amount to see what happened.

How often did you take the B12 and methylfolate in a day?

I took the methylfolate 4 times per day. I think it has a three hour half-life so taking it regularly should help keep up the supply in your body. The B12 was once or twice a day depending on dose, both in the morning since B12 can interfere with sleep if taken later in the day (although for some people it helps them sleep).

Can anyone offer me some guidelines for this or is it a case of everyone has to feel it out for themselves?

For me the methylfolate dosing had to be regular to keep me out of PFD. My potassium demand was crazy after a certain point so I had to take potassium every 1.5 hours, and a dose in the middle of the night, for a total of 3.5 grams per day. It took a couple of months to really get a feel for what my body wanted, and when. It was difficult initially because of the startup effects and changing symptoms. After roughly 2-3 months the symptoms settled and I was in a good routine with micro-managing the symptoms.

I'm sorry, folks, I have so many questions

No need to apologize for asking questions. We'll help if we can. By the way, if I don't answer a question you've asked, it's because I don't know the answer.

 

[caledonia]

It's good to hear someone else talk about needing starchy carbs, Caledonia.

I eat potatoes two or three times a day. I'll add more magnesium during the day too. I went through multiple psych drug withdrawal a few years back, benzos and SSRI, and olanzapine at one point so I know how brutal that can be.

Have you tried the daily microtaper? It's what got me off diazepam. Thanks for the response, I'm finally going to get my tests done now, so 23andme and NutrEval and Doctors Data hair test to start.

I've read some of your responses to others' results, I take it you have a science background? Really impressive stuff. I have a son studying to be a doctor, and I've directed him to Methylation. He said that genetics and tailor made approaches to individual variations are becoming a big part of modern medicine.

Watching me in ill health, he knows what I'm going through. He'll be a sympathetic healer.

I haven't tried a daily microtaper. Diazepams are a different animal than SSRIs. I'm using the Surviving Antidepressants forum progressive 10% taper. You reduce by 10% of the previous dose then hold for 3-6 weeks. In my case, I'm very sensitive so I need to hold for 8 weeks. A change in the dose is what causes your brain to go crazy.

Thanks for the complement. I don't have a science background per se (other than what you would get in high school biology, chemistry and physics), but I do have a technical/design background along with art and music. I worked as technical writer and illustrator for awhile and feel like I do have talent in making complicated stuff understandable.

What's funny is when I did career aptitude testing in 8th grade, the medical field did come up, but I had no interest in it.

That's great that you have a son studying to be a doctor and he's into genetics and methylation.

 

[Tuskentank]

I haven't tried a daily microtaper. Diazepams are a different animal than SSRIs. I'm using the Surviving Antidepressants forum progressive 10% taper. You reduce by 10% of the previous dose then hold for 3-6 weeks. In my case, I'm very sensitive so I need to hold for 8 weeks. A change in the dose is what causes your brain to go crazy.

I came off SSRIs the hard way, didn't know any better. Did a lot of damage to me then. Even 8 weeks is a strong return, Caledonia. Credit to you for that. It's funny, I was into literature, but as I got older and ill health showed it's horns, I've read a lot of alternative health.

This, methylation is cutting edge though. It scared me for these few months of getting worse. Necessity becomes the helping hand to finding the courage to push through. I don't hate my genetics ( all the time).

It's just that so many people could avoid so many illnesses with the foreknowledge of methylation. Should be taught in schools. Would kill McDonald's profit margin though.

 

[Tuskentank]

I've found something unusual today, just wondering if any of you have come across this.

In taking my second dose for today 1000mcg B12 and 600mcg methylfolate, I've noticed a tight band feeling at the top of my head(?)

Can anybody shed any light on what this is?

It is not alleviated by magnesium, and potassium. If I take potassium it eases slightly but I feel nauseous, which indicates too much potassium maybe?

 

[PatJ]

It is not alleviated by magnesium, and potassium. If I take potassium it eases slightly but I feel nauseous, which indicates too much potassium maybe?

It depends on the character of the tightness - muscle tightness? Tension band in the scalp? Tightness from pressure within the skull? Muscle tightness could be lack of potassium. Tightness within the skull might be something like the headache listed under the section for "Either or Both Hypokalemia and Folate Deficiency or Insufficiency" in Freddd's list. Or it may be from PFD. Maybe you needed a little more potassium but took too much. Maybe it's a 'startup effect' where that part of your body is starting repairs and you're feeling the effects. Lots of speculation, but Freddd's lists have been quite accurate in my experience, if I could find my symptom(s) listed.

 

[Tuskentank]

@caledonia ,

I was reading the link you posted on methylfolate increasing depression through accelerated SERT and I think this may be happening to me, albeit I took extra B2 in its bioactive form today R5P.

I know I need methylfolate from my initial reaction, but obviously don't want to push things too far into deepening depression.

Are there options for addressing this, whilst maintaining the methylation protocol?

Adding SAMe for instance? My diet is heavily folate based as well.

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia ,

I was reading the link you posted on methylfolate increasing depression through accelerated SERT and I think this may be happening to me, albeit I took extra B2 in its bioactive form today R5P.

I know I need methylfolate from my initial reaction, but obviously don't want to push things too far into deepening depression.

Are there options for addressing this, whilst maintaining the methylation protocol?

Adding SAMe for instance? My diet is heavily folate based as well.

From what I understand, even dietary folate could cause depression if you have the issue (aka "salad bowl depression"). SAMe is one of the workarounds Walsh uses.

 

[Tuskentank]

From what I understand, even dietary folate could cause depression if you have the issue (aka "salad bowl depression"). SAMe is one of the workarounds Walsh uses.

This is just it though, I didn't feel depressed on my diet, more it was the only food I could eat.

Are you able to take a lot of methylfolate?
Could the depression be a temporary adjustment?
I have been on SSRIs for years before, so am thinking I have downregulation there.
Also could B12 offset the methylfolate?

I took another full dose of each and feel great moodwise, but feel overstimulated and slightly depressed at the same time, and constipated, so I'm guessing this is overmethylation, or lowered serotonin.

Also my eyes went really dry, albeit this feels like a nutrient deficiency issue. Think there's a slight mania there too now, which would suggest a flood of dopamine, noradrenaline perhaps offsetting the low serotonin.

I'll see where I'm at, when things settle this time.

Just curious if you have been able to increase your methylfolate dose, as I know you are tapering off an SSRI, and probably have some of the same neurotransmitter sensitivity issues as me.

Would love to know what the dry eye deficiency is though.

 

[caledonia]

This is just it though, I didn't feel depressed on my diet, more it was the only food I could eat.

Are you able to take a lot of methylfolate?
Could the depression be a temporary adjustment?
I have been on SSRIs for years before, so am thinking I have downregulation there.
Also could B12 offset the methylfolate?

I took another full dose of each and feel great moodwise, but feel overstimulated and slightly depressed at the same time, and constipated, so I'm guessing this is overmethylation, or lowered serotonin.

Also my eyes went really dry, albeit this feels like a nutrient deficiency issue. Think there's a slight mania there too now, which would suggest a flood of dopamine, noradrenaline perhaps offsetting the low serotonin.

I'll see where I'm at, when things settle this time.

Just curious if you have been able to increase your methylfolate dose, as I know you are tapering off an SSRI, and probably have some of the same neurotransmitter sensitivity issues as me.

Would love to know what the dry eye deficiency is though.

No I actually haven't been able to take much methylfolate. I get the same issue as with B12, which is feel good at first, then a crash similar to PEM. I can do 3 small lettuce leaves per day. When I was supplementing, it was a pinhead amount, twice a week.

Check in the Roadblocks document in my signature link to verify, but I think there could be a methyl trap with too much B12 and not enough folate too.

I had dry eyes and mouth - I take a mega dose of pharmaceutical grade fish oil and that solves the issue.

The fish oil is also helpful for mood issues such as depression.

 

[Tuskentank]

@caledonia, @Learner1, @Eastman , @dannybex , @PinkPanda ,

Is the GI Effects better than the CDSA 2.0? Dysbiosis is definitely a big issue for me here.

This has settled down to my norm of constipation, dry skin and toxic taste in my mouth. I'm concerned the sweeteners are feeding the SIBO. Although what stools I'm having, which is something every morning at least, is sinking.

I've added P5P at 25mg X 3 a day and my sleep is better than ever, but I've read it can block detox if CBS is overexpressing(?) as in mercury toxicity. I can also now take much more betaine HCL, but I'm not sure if it's working as well(?) Bizarre situation this. I passed undigested carrots and my skin was turning orange a la malabsorption.

Can anyone of you recommend a good GI doctor online/Skype?

Awaiting my 23andme pack, NutrEval and doctors data hair analysis is away today.

 

[PinkPanda]

Hello

I don't have any info on GI tests and doctors.

I read up a bit on Gastroparesis and it seems to be related to bad function of the Vagus Nerve (wikipedia: Gastroparesis). Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter that seems to stimulate the vagus nerve. Also, some acetylcholine receptors are found in the gut and activate muscle contraction there. I think many people with ME/CFS might be low in acetylcholine.

I don't do well on choline-containing supplements but acetylcholine production needs SAM-e and acetyl-CoA. The pyruvate dehydrogenase complex was found to function low in ME/CFS. It converts pyruvate to acetyl-CoA. So this could cause low acetyl-CoA. cofactors of the pyruvate dehydrogenase are vitamin b1, 2, 3, 5, alpha lipoic acid.

Vitamin B12 and folate might be important for SAM-e.

I tolerate b2(riboflavin), b3(niacin), b5, b12 (sublingual hydroxob12) well at the moment. Alpah lipoic acid is no good for me and I have some mixed experience with B1.
What I'm trying to say I guess is, I wouldn't only focus on how to make the methylation stuff work, based on the mutations, but also look at some other basic processes. I think folate might be important in general but if you don't tolerate it well right now, I wouldn't focus too much on the methylation part only.

Also, I'm looking at B5 supplements at the moment. I think I tolerate the form pathenol better than calcium-d-pantothenate. Panthenol helps my gut function when I've eaten a bigger meal and have trouble digesting it. Panthenol infusions are given to treat intestinal paralysis, so it seems to increase digestive function in general. There aren't many supplements that use panthenol though.

I'll add some references later, I'm not using my computer right now..

 

[Tuskentank]

Hello

I don't have any info on GI tests and doctors.

I read up a bit on Gastroparesis and it seems to be related to bad function of the Vagus Nerve (wikipedia: Gastroparesis). Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter that seems to stimulate the vagus nerve. Also, some acetylcholine receptors are found in the gut and activate muscle contraction there. I think many people with ME/CFS might be low in acetylcholine.

I don't do well on choline-containing supplements but acetylcholine production needs SAM-e and acetyl-CoA. The pyruvate dehydrogenase complex was found to function low in ME/CFS. It converts pyruvate to acetyl-CoA. So this could cause low acetyl-CoA. cofactors of the pyruvate dehydrogenase are vitamin b1, 2, 3, 5, alpha lipoic acid.

Vitamin B12 and folate might be important for SAM-e.

I tolerate b2(riboflavin), b3(niacin), b5, b12 (sublingual hydroxob12) well at the moment. Alpah lipoic acid is no good for me and I have some mixed experience with B1.
What I'm trying to say I guess is, I wouldn't only focus on how to make the methylation stuff work, based on the mutations, but also look at some other basic processes. I think folate might be important in general but if you don't tolerate it well right now, I wouldn't focus too much on the methylation part only.

Also, I'm looking at B5 supplements at the moment. I think I tolerate the form pathenol better than calcium-d-pantothenate. Panthenol helps my gut function when I've eaten a bigger meal and have trouble digesting it. Panthenol infusions are given to treat intestinal paralysis, so it seems to increase digestive function in general. There aren't many supplements that use panthenol though.

I'll add some references later, I'm not using my computer right now..

That's brilliant, PinkPanda, really I'm learning all the time on this forum.

Thanks and God bless you.

 

[Tuskentank]

I have a B complex with panthenol in it, just realised. I'm going to take some tonight.

 

[PinkPanda]

Some references:
'Dexpanthenol is an alcoholic analogue of D-pantothenic acid and cholinergic agent. Dexpanthenol acts as a precursor of coenzyme A necessary for acetylation reactions and is involved in the synthesis of acetylcholine. Although the exact mechanism of the actions of dexpanthenol is unclear, it may enhance the effect of acetylcholine. Dexpanthenol acts on the gastrointestinal tract and increases lower intestinal motility. It is also applied topically to the skin to relieve itching and to promote healing.'
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Dexpanthenol#section=Pharmacology-and-Biochemistry

This thread is about gastroparesis
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ed-stomach-emptying-and-colonic-inertia.2491/
Richvank's post 'Digestive system problems in CFS' names different reason for GI problems, nr.5 is low acetylcholine.

And on another topic. This is a thread with different B12 forms found in foods, which I found really helpful. You can see that meat contains high levels of adenosylcobalamin and hydroxycobalamin, while methylcobalamin is mainly found in dairy products. I'm still standing with my statement that hydoxocobalamin is important
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methyl-b12-from-foods.43899/
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methyl-b12-from-foods.43899/
That's great, that you have the b-complex available. I need to take the vitamin alone for the full effect. It seems I don't tolerate half the vitamins in the b-complex well, but maybe you can still see a certain effect.

 

[Tuskentank]

This is fascinating, PinkPanda, thank you, sincerely. I assumed that my motility problems were from low serotonin, after years of SSRIs and the damage they did.

I know I feel in my head in the same place (top of skull) a kind of burning pain that has turned into a tingling pain since adding fish oil. Each time I suffered any sort of withdrawal from SSRIs, I felt it here first and feel this is where the repair work is needed.

The foggy vision with P5P is unusual, and annoying but not distressing. Too much GABA maybe? Too much serotonin for my receptor density? I am probably taking too much though, think my B Complex is too concentrated. That been said, I can tolerate a lot more betaine HCL already.

I saw tyrosine mentioned as of benefit in motility issues, so I'm going to keep exploring this. With fat slowing motility, my diet of avocadoes is probably too fat heavy.

I've settled for now on 1000mg methylcobalmin X 3, and 400mcg methylfolate X 3, P5P 25mg X 3. With B1 and modest amounts B2. Going to add adensylcobalmin tomorrow and see if this improves things further.

First amalgams out today too. Please God, let this be the path to healing. I thank you all again for your kindness on here, it means so much. God grant you a full recovery.