Methyl folate severe crash

[Tuskentank]

Thanks, Learner1, bit tricky this as I have lost the ability to sweat, and have SIBO so have to be careful with certain fibres, but I use taurine and glycine to support detox and gut healing, and some chlorella, which I seem to do okay with.

I'm getting my amalgams out in these next few weeks by an IAOMT holistic dentist, and am.a member of the Andy Cutler Chelation group on Facebook, so will hopefully be able to start chelating in a few weeks.

Need to get my stomach acid working again properly, but feel like methylation will help that, so it's a balancing act.

I'll look into the water binders and transsulfuration. Thanks again for the advice, really appreciate this.

 

[PatJ]

Need to get my stomach acid working again properly, but feel like methylation will help that, so it's a balancing act

Your somach may be capable of producing acid but is prevented from doing so for an unknown reason. I have tried supplements that encourage the stomach to produce acid, such as digestive bitters. They work for me, which tells me that my stomach is capable of producing acid by itself, but something is preventing it from happening. I still take BHCL because it's easier to get just the dose I need without stomach discomfort. When I take bitters, my stomach produces too much acid for the small amount of food that I eat in one meal.

Have you tried digestive bitters?

 

[Tuskentank]

Your somach may be capable of producing acid but is prevented from doing so for an unknown reason. I have tried supplements that encourage the stomach to produce acid, such as digestive bitters. They work for me, which tells me that my stomach is capable of producing acid by itself, but something is preventing it from happening. I still take BHCL because it's easier to get just the dose I need without stomach discomfort. When I take bitters, my stomach produces too much acid for the small amount of food that I eat in one meal.

Have you tried digestive bitters?

Hi Pat,

I take digestive bitters, enzymes and betaine HCL. It feels like there's something in my stomach alright. When I took the methyl folate, I got that really strong wheezing reaction, felt like toxins trying to get out of everywhere, then I felt alive for the first time in 6 months. It seemed to be that night maybe the methyl folate wearing off(?) that I crashed hard.

I think my liver is overburdened with toxins, and SIBO. I know I need a lot of sodium, but would taking extra potassium with that, still work?

 

[Learner1]

Thanks, Learner1, bit tricky this as I have lost the ability to sweat, and have SIBO so have to be careful with certain fibres, but I use taurine and glycine to support detox and gut healing, and some chlorella, which I seem to do okay with.

I'm getting my amalgams out in these next few weeks by an IAOMT holistic dentist, and am.a member of the Andy Cutler Chelation group on Facebook, so will hopefully be able to start chelating in a few weeks.

Need to get my stomach acid working again properly, but feel like methylation will help that, so it's a balancing act.

I'll look into the water binders and transsulfuration. Thanks again for the advice, really appreciate this.

You need B1 and molybdenum for transsulfuration.

Quicksilver has a Universal Binder that may be helpful to you.

If you are reacting that severely to mobilizing toxins, I highly encourage you to be under the supervision of a knowledgeable doctor, like a Bastyr-trained naturopathic doctor or a functional medicine doctor. Unintended consequences of do-it-yourself detox can be very dangerous.

There's also a price to pay for moving too slowly, as with the Cutler protocol. I ended up with cancer though I'd been detoxing, eating a high quality diet and supplements, exercising, etc.

 

[Tuskentank]

Just realised today, I had been taking 15mg B12. Thi

You need B1 and molybdenum for transsulfuration.

Quicksilver has a Universal Binder that may be helpful to you.

If you are reacting that severely to mobilizing toxins, I highly encourage you to be under the supervision of a knowledgeable doctor, like a Bastyr-trained naturopathic doctor or a functional medicine doctor. Unintended consequences of do-it-yourself detox can be very dangerous.

There's also a price to pay for moving too slowly, as with the Cutler protocol. I ended up with cancer though I'd been detoxing, eating a high quality diet and supplements, exercising, etc.

Do you know alternatives to Cutler? I take chlorella. I was also able to dampen overmethylation today, but feel pretty crappy now, think it might be the niacin.

I'm just not sure anymore. If I thought the paradoxical folate deficiency theory was a go I would hit it hard.

Just a question, is it okay to start B12 and methylfolate together at small doses?

I have B1 and B2 and niacin, magnesium, potassium, chromium, a B complex, P5P.

This couldn't be mercury mobilising in my brain could it? From methylfolate and methyl B12? When I take potassium I feel a bit sick, but the head pressure dies down. Could be my brain is trying to repair itself but mercury is in the way?

I start getting my fillings out next week, 6 fillings over 2-3 weeks.

I'm going to try a quarter dose B12 and methylfolate tomorrow together. I feel crap when I don't take the B12 and between doses, but get that wheezing when I do take them. Then today I overmethylated taking a 5000 mcg tab, met a friend who was really sick and just wasn't paying attention. Had half of it through before I caught on. Thing is the breathing issues stopped being an issue and the shakey legs eased...then came back.

Is the B1 in my B complex not enough? It's Country life which admittedly contains crappy folic acid.

 

[Tuskentank]

You're a fountain of knowledge, Learner1 by the way. I've contacted a practitioner to see if they can help. I need to get the 23abdme, NutrEval, Stool test done though

I think I've got the SIBO reasonably under control with an Irish diet (lots of potatoes, figure it what's I ate growing up why not?)

 

[Tuskentank]

PatJ, did you taper up on methylfolate? I'm suspecting now this is paradoxical folate deficiency. I took a tiny portion tonight and had the same intense reaction. I quenched it this time with niacin and took some extra potassium. Still wheezing slightly, might be histamine as my nose is runny.

Thank you again folks for your support. May God smile on you and help your healing always.

 

[PatJ]

I know I need a lot of sodium, but would taking extra potassium with that, still work?

I don't know for certain, but electrolyte drinks contain potassium and sodium, so I doubt there would is a problem from mixing the two.

If I thought the paradoxical folate deficiency theory was a go I would hit it hard.

It hit me noticeably but not hard (ie. not like the way that severe PEM hits hard).

Just a question, is it okay to start B12 and methylfolate together at small doses?

That's what I did. But I ramped up both fairly quickly based on deficiency symptoms.

PatJ, did you taper up on methylfolate? I'm suspecting now this is paradoxical folate deficiency. I took a tiny portion tonight and had the same intense reaction. I quenched it this time with niacin and took some extra potassium.

I printed Freddd's list of folate insufficiency symptoms and kept checking it (and the list of low potassium symptoms which is even more important.) Whenever a low folate symptom hit I increased my methylfolate until the symptom went away. Eventually I was taking 25mg per day, but then learned that I was mixing up some of my symptoms with low potassium symptoms and didn't need that much. After a month or two I settled on 12mg of methylfolate per day; then a month after that settled on 9mg. I needed massive amounts of potassium (3.5 grams per day supplemented) and still ran into low potassium symptoms ocassionally.

The potassium demand didn't spike until I added l-carnitine fumarate.

Do you have Freddd's list of folate insufficiency symptoms? It takes time to get know how they feel vs. low potassium symptoms, although some are easy to differentiate. My hallmark low potassium warning symptom was nausea.

You've mentioned how you started to feel alive again when taking methylfolate. I had a similar reaction. After the first dose my many years dormant sense of humor started to come back. It was amazing.

 

[Learner1]

Do you know alternatives to Cutler?

Yes, I have been on faster oral as well as IV protocols, supervised by a knowledgeable doctor. It is hard to know exactly what you're dealing with and you could inadvertently do serious damage without good supervision.

Just a question, is it okay to start B12 and methylfolate together at small doses?

I have B1 and B2 and niacin, magnesium, potassium, chromium, a B complex, P5P.

Yes. With the others, you need to ensure you have the ratios that your body needs in relation to the amounts if folate and B12, or you will experience symptoms, as you've discovered, and impact the efficiency of detoxing.

This couldn't be mercury mobilising in my brain could it? From methylfolate and methyl B12?

Yes, you can be mobilizing mercury. What you don't want is to mobilized it from a relatively safe place, like your fat, and get redeposited somewhere critical, making you worse off than you were.

So, you must ensure your phase 3 pathways are working to bind and eliminate toxins. And, you may have more than just mercury.

Could be my brain is trying to repair itself but mercury is in the way?

Nor sure what your brain is doing. You may have other things going on.

I start getting my fillings out next week, 6 fillings over 2-3 weeks.

Rreview procedures for safely removing them and be alert as your dentist works on you that they're being followed. I didn't have access to a biological dentist, and my dentist was careful, but I still had more mercury released during the process.

Also, you don't want to be moving a lot of toxins around during it as mercury could be moved somewhere bad. Focus on fiber, cilantro, and elimination for awhile, sweating, too, to encourage it to get out of you. Then pick up afterwards with a practitioner and use DMSA or DMPS. IV would be great at that point, if you can.

I'm going to try a quarter dose B12 and methylfolate tomorrow together. I feel crap when I don't take the B12 and between doses, but get that wheezing when I do take them. Then today I overmethylated taking a 5000 mcg tab, met a friend who was really sick and just wasn't paying attention. Had half of it through before I caught on. Thing is the breathing issues stopped being an issue and the shakey legs eased...then came back.

Well... That's one way to learn!! I think you'll really benefit from getting the lab work done and figuring out what's going on and the ratios you need of the nutrients so you're not wildly varying in your symptoms. Your body needs to be on a steadier course. Have a complete metabolic panel done, too, to check kidney and liver function, preferably with s lab that doesn't just report over 60 as good - I've found it useful to know if my GFR is 50, 54, 80 or 100 through this process.

Is the B1 in my B complex not enough? It's Country life which admittedly contains crappy folic acid.

Likely not with the amounts of B12 you're reporting. Make sure to take molybdenum too for your transsulfuration pathway.

 

[Tuskentank]

Yes, I have been on faster oral as well as IV protocols, supervised by a knowledgeable doctor. It is hard to know exactly what you're dealing with and you could inadvertently do serious damage without good supervision."

I don't know anyone other than my holistic dentist who could help with this. He has already recommended chlorella. When I told him it was single thiol and about Cutler, he said things had moved on(?)


With the others, you need to ensure you have the ratios that your body needs in relation to the amounts if folate and B12, or you will experience symptoms, as you've discovered, and impact the efficiency of detoxing."


NutrEval will be completed but it's all out of pocket. The UK has a basic health care service that doesn't cover things like this. I'm in the middle of a divorce, so have to wait on that. In the meantime I can titrate the doses up. I've ordered a B Complex without folic acid. And will titrate up the individual Bs like B1 and B2, which I already have. B1 may be key as it seems to give me a bit of the "shakey leg" thing then settles.

You can be mobilizing mercury. What you don't want is to mobilized it from a relatively safe place, like your fat, and get redeposited somewhere critical, making you worse off than you were.

So, you must ensure your phase 3 pathways are working to bind and eliminate toxins. And, you may have more than just mercury."

I suspect lead as well, but will get a hair test done. Will work on phase 3 detox. I do enemas occasionally to help the bowels along.


Review procedures for safely removing them and be alert as your dentist works on you that they're being followed. I didn't have access to a biological dentist, and my dentist was careful, but I still had more mercury released during the process.

Also, you don't want to be moving a lot of toxins around during it as mercury could be moved somewhere bad. Focus on fiber, cilantro, and elimination for awhile, sweating, too, to encourage it to get out of you. Then pick up afterwards with a practitioner and use DMSA or DMPS. IV would be great at that point, if you can.

The dentist has me on a separate oxygen supply and the rubber dam, etc.

I heard Cilantro was bad? Not sure why though, think Cutler thought it was an unknown quantity. I don't seem to have issues with chlorella, so will add cilantro.



Thanks for this.

 

[caledonia]

I heard Cilantro was bad? Not sure why though, think Cutler thought it was an unknown quantity. I don't seem to have issues with chlorella, so will add cilantro.

I'm doing also doing the Cutler protocol.

See the What Not to Do page for the Cutler protocol regarding cilantro and chlorella:
http://cutlersuccessstories.weebly.com/what-not-to-do.html

I didn't use to have an issue with cilantro that I was aware of, but now it causes mental type symptoms. I haven't tried chlorella.

As far as methylation, it looks like you can tolerate higher amounts than some people (like myself), but it can still be tricky to get everything in balance.

I wrote a couple of documents that might be helpful. Click on my signature link and look for "Start Low and Go Slow" and "Roadblocks to Successful Methylation Treatment".

 

[Tuskentank]

I'm doing also doing the Cutler protocol.

See the What Not to Do page for the Cutler protocol regarding cilantro and chlorella:
http://cutlersuccessstories.weebly.com/what-not-to-do.html


I didn't use to have an issue with cilantro that I was aware of, but now it causes mental type symptoms. I haven't tried chlorella.

As far as methylation, it looks like you can tolerate higher amounts than some people (like myself), but it can still be tricky to get everything in balance.

I wrote a couple of documents that might be helpful. Click on my signature link and look for "Start Low and Go Slow" and "Roadblocks to Successful Methylation Treatment".

Thanks, Caledonia. I no longer tolerate the high doses after my methylfolate crash, but it gives me something to build towards.

Roadblocks to Successful Methylation Treatment is fantastic, just read it. I see you take b vitamins in liquid form? Do you find that as effective sublingually?

I was looking at a liquid methylfolate, nothing in it but quatrefolic and purified water. Could this be used sublingually in small doses? I'm not sure about absorption through the gut. I'm working on this at the moment, limited diet, and able to go to the toilet somewhat.

 

[caledonia]

Thanks, Caledonia. I no longer tolerate the high doses after my methylfolate crash, but it gives me something to build towards.

Roadblocks to Successful Methylation Treatment is fantastic, just read it. I see you take b vitamins in liquid form? Do you find that as effective sublingually?

I was looking at a liquid methylfolate, nothing in it but quatrefolic and purified water. Could this be used sublingually in small doses? I'm not sure about absorption through the gut. I'm working on this at the moment, limited diet, and able to go to the toilet somewhat.

Yes, I think they absorb fine. You hold them under the tongue for about 20-30 seconds then swallow. My tongue gets a bit sore if I hold for longer than 22 seconds.

I haven't tried liquid methylfolate, but it seems like it should work ok.

 

[Eastman]

@Tuskentank

With regards to your wheezing, B3 is supposed to help maintain mucous membranes and has been used to treat asthma.

Treatment of Asthma by Nicotinic Acid

 

[PatJ]

I was looking at a liquid methylfolate, nothing in it but quatrefolic and purified water. Could this be used sublingually in small doses?

Some members here on PR have used methyfolate sublingually to reduce the amount they need to take. Holding it in the area under the upper lip is effective as well.

 

[Tuskentank]

Some members here on PR have used methyfolate sublingually to reduce the amount they need to take. Holding it in the area under the upper lip is effective as well.

I think it's paradoxical folate deficiency.

I took 1000mcg methylcobalmin this morning and then took 200mcg methylfolate orally and got on okay. Did the same at tea. Went for a third dose and was doing okay again until I put it under my.tongue for literally 20 seconds.

Same tightness at top and front of head and weird feeling in jaw, tongue.

The thing is, if this is paradoxical folate deficiency do I crank up the dose right away? Or do I take niacin and wait?

 

[Tuskentank]

I've take niacin and potassium now, but still in alert mode. I've tied the burning down to potassium, as that goes when I supplement that. But still overstimulated. This is insane. I spat out the tablet and it was pretty much all there.

 

[Tuskentank]

@caledonia ,

Was looking at how you tackled gut issues with Methylation as well. I'm struggling to tackle my gut issues at the minute. I know I have SIBO C because taking things like onions leaves me really sick and bloated and still constipated with wind and cramps all night.

I've been taking Allimed and interphase, and had slowly been coming back to being able to go to the toilet. But since starting the metfolin and swallowing it, I'm constipated again.

Just curious what diet you followed? Between low thiols and anti candida, and SIBO diets, I'm considering a glucose drip...

I'm about to get my 23andme done so will be better clued in as far as methylation goes.

I'm impressed beyond words that you can balance chelation of mercury, methylation and gut rehabilitation.

In fact, all those on this forum from Freddd and Rich right through, you are the pioneers of what will become the future of health treatment. I feel privileged genuinely.

 

[PatJ]

The thing is, if this is paradoxical folate deficiency do I crank up the dose right away? Or do I take niacin and wait?

If it's paradoxical folate deficiency then taking methylfolate and then niacin will just swing you back and forth between starting to heal (and your body sending signals that it needs more folate) and slowing down healing with niacin until the PFD symtoms go away.

When I had PFD symptoms I took more folate. I kept this up multiple times per day, over the course of a week or so, until the symptoms finally went away.

You may be going through what Freddd called 'start up'. It can be a rocky road until you get a good read on the symptoms and how to manage them.

I've tied the burning down to potassium, as that goes when I supplement that.

Does the burning occur quite quickly? Assuming it does, then if you are taking potassium chloride then burning is understandable. It can cause tissue damage if enough comes in direct contact with tissue. That's why instructions usually recommend taking it with a lot of water and/or food. If it's potassium gluconate and you experience burning then maybe you've got a very sensitive stomach (it seems that way based on your previous statements.) Taking the potassium with more liquid and/or food might help.

I looked up Freddd's lists that are useful during methylation treatment and have included them here. Note asthma (your wheezing?), skin rashes, low energy, and constipation are listed as folate deficiency symptoms.

Another note: nausea is a symptom of lack of potassium and excess potassium. The way I was able to tell the difference is that the nausea didn't go away when I took more potassium. Too much or too little potassium can be dangerous.

Freddd's Lists

Folate deficiency or insufficiency (Induced and/or Paradoxical)
IBS – Steady diarrhea
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal
Stomach ache
Uneasy digestive tract
increased hypersensitive responses

Skin rashes,
Increased acne
Skin peeling around fingernails
Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips
Angular Cheilitis

Canker sores
Coated tongue
Runny nose
Increased allergies
Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities
Increased asthma
Rapidly increasing generalized inflammation in body

Increased Inflammation pain in
* muscles
* joints
Achy muscles
Flu like symptoms
Depression
Less sociable

Impaired planning and logic
Brain fog
Low energy
Light headedness
Sluggishness
Forgetfulness

Confusion
Difficulty walking
Behavioural disorders
Dementia
Reduced sense of taste

Increased irritability
Loss of reflexes
Fevers
Old symptoms returning
Heart palpitations
Bleeding easily

Both Hypokalemia and Folate Deficiency or Insufficiency
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation
IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

Either or Both Hypokalemia and Folate Deficiency or Insufficiency
* Headache
* Increased malaise
* Fatigue

Hypokalemia Symptoms
Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored.

IBS – Steady constipation
Nausea
Vomiting
Paralyzed Ileum
Hard knots of muscle

Sudden muscle spasms when
* relaxed
* stretching
* kneeling
* reaching
* turning upper body to side

Tightening of muscles (esp. neck muscles)
Muscle weakness
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias)
Increased pulse rate
Increased blood pressure
Emotional changes and/or instability
dermal or sub-dermal Itching

(if not treated) potentially paralysis and death

 

[Tuskentank]

If it's paradoxical folate deficiency then taking methylfolate and then niacin will just swing you back and forth between starting to heal (and your body sending signals that it needs more folate) and slowing down healing with niacin until the PFD symtoms go away.

When I had PFD symptoms I took more folate. I kept this up multiple times per day, over the course of a week or so, until the symptoms finally went away.

You may be going through what Freddd called 'start up'. It can be a rocky road until you get a good read on the symptoms and how to manage them.



Does the burning occur quite quickly? Assuming it does, then if you are taking potassium chloride then burning is understandable. It can cause tissue damage if enough comes in direct contact with tissue. That's why instructions usually recommend taking it with a lot of water and/or food. If it's potassium gluconate and you experience burning then maybe you've got a very sensitive stomach (it seems that way based on your previous statements.) Taking the potassium with more liquid and/or food might help.

I looked up Freddd's lists that are useful during methylation treatment and have included them here. Note asthma (your wheezing?), skin rashes, low energy, and constipation are listed as folate deficiency symptoms.

Another note: nausea is a symptom of lack of potassium and excess potassium. The way I was able to tell the difference is that the nausea didn't go away when I took more potassium. Too much or too little potassium can be dangerous.

Thanks, Pat, the burning isn't limited to my stomach, it comes in my legs as well. The nausea from too much potassium I get as well. I have a very high potassium diet, so I use pink salt to balance it out.

What happened today was definitely folate deficiency, but I think my nervous system would struggle with me bumping up the methylfolate too much, so I will go back to taking the 1000mcg B12 and 200mcg methylfolate at a time.

I took P5P and it makes me depressed(?) so I'm going to have to take that later at night.

The TMG in betaine HCL was also overstimulating me for a while before I took the potassium. I can take 3 capsules per meal now and it's only mildly stimulating.

Have to look on that as progress. Think I need to get a methylfolate without mannitol, as I think my SIBO is worse on it, definitely the constipation is, unless that's the paradoxical deficiency.

Thanks again for the advice, you're an angel, Pat.