MeSci
ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
- Messages
- 8,231
- Location
- Cornwall, UK
-
Welcome to Phoenix Rising!
Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.
To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.
Metabolic profiling reveals anomalous energy metabolism and oxidative stress pathways
- Thread starter JaimeS
- Start date
JaimeS
Senior Member
- Messages
- 3,408
- Location
- Silicon Valley, CA
@MeSci -
When I taught chemistry, I told my students it was +10 if they could sing the whole thing...
-J
When I taught chemistry, I told my students it was +10 if they could sing the whole thing...
-J
MeSci
ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
- Messages
- 8,231
- Location
- Cornwall, UK
This article refers to it.
I think that this thread discusses a paper reporting findings from the study, but there is puzzlement over the lack of reference to lactate.
I can't remember whether we came to a conclusion on this!
Gondwanaland
Senior Member
- Messages
- 5,094
There is no mention to raw data in the paper, and no supplemental material available for download at the journal's site.
- Messages
- 67
It should be at the bottom on the metabolomics journal. Link is for metabolights and a data accession number.
It's standard for all metabolomics papers to have full data access. Metabolomics is like genomics and proteomics - a concerted mapping of metabolism. One of the few fields that offers this level of disclosure, though it is becoming more common as time goes on. It allows outside people without the ability to do the experiments to analyse the data or find things that were missed.
It's fairly raw data though, it's quite different to supplementary data if that's what you are expecting.
Last edited:
nandixon
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,092
Gondwanaland
Senior Member
- Messages
- 5,094
Thanks, @ChrisArmstrong and @nandixon I am expanding my English vocabulary with "Data Deposition"... Would have never guessed
JaimeS
Senior Member
- Messages
- 3,408
- Location
- Silicon Valley, CA
That is... really squished together, full of quotation marks...
I'd blame brain-fog, but I'm not sure that this data is user-friendly to anyone.
-J
I'd blame brain-fog, but I'm not sure that this data is user-friendly to anyone.
-J
Hutan
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,099
- Location
- New Zealand
@ChrisArmstrong
So good that you are making yourself available to us here. All power to you.
To be included in any future studies you do, will it be necessary to be a patient of the Discovery Clinic? My son and I are in Melbourne and both with ME.
Yes, tracking variation in metabolites over rest, activity and PEM will be very interesting. The other thing that it is probably worth controlling for is the time since illness onset, given the major changes in cytokine levels found after perhaps three years of illness.
) In my case, this is despite having consistently low albumin levels (kidneys fine, no diabetes).
Chris Armstrong and the Metabolights? (I'm picturing a brass section and some buxom ladies singing doowops with synchronised finger clicking)
So good that you are making yourself available to us here. All power to you.
To be included in any future studies you do, will it be necessary to be a patient of the Discovery Clinic? My son and I are in Melbourne and both with ME.
Yes, tracking variation in metabolites over rest, activity and PEM will be very interesting. The other thing that it is probably worth controlling for is the time since illness onset, given the major changes in cytokine levels found after perhaps three years of illness.
Jaime, my son and I have consistently high anion gaps. (n=3 with self selection
) In my case, this is despite having consistently low albumin levels (kidneys fine, no diabetes). Chris Armstrong and the Metabolights? (I'm picturing a brass section and some buxom ladies singing doowops with synchronised finger clicking)
JaimeS
Senior Member
- Messages
- 3,408
- Location
- Silicon Valley, CA
Jaime, my son and I have consistently high anion gaps. (n=3 with self selection
Chris Armstrong and the Metabolights? (I'm picturing a brass section and some buxom ladies singing doowops with synchronised finger clicking)
First of all:
Second of all, I do wonder about this. Like, I really want to be that researcher that gathers up EVERYONE'S LAB DATA OF EVER and analyzes it.
But I can't use stepwise regression to link this stuff, apparently. I was doing research for a paper I'm reviewing and apparently it's Of The Devil. This makes me worry, because I can't imagine how many social science papers are floating around out there, thinking that they prove something. I mean, how do those papers even sleep at night?
-J
- Messages
- 67
Yeah, it seems it's in a form to be used by metabolomics software packages. Not the most convenient if you aren't familiar with the data format.That is... really squished together, full of quotation marks...
I'd blame brain-fog, but I'm not sure that this data is user-friendly to anyone.
-J
- Messages
- 67
@ChrisArmstrong
So good that you are making yourself available to us here. All power to you.
To be included in any future studies you do, will it be necessary to be a patient of the Discovery Clinic? My son and I are in Melbourne and both with ME.
Yes, tracking variation in metabolites over rest, activity and PEM will be very interesting. The other thing that it is probably worth controlling for is the time since illness onset, given the major changes in cytokine levels found after perhaps three years of illness.
Jaime, my son and I have consistently high anion gaps. (n=3 with self selection
Chris Armstrong and the Metabolights? (I'm picturing a brass section and some buxom ladies singing doowops with synchronised finger clicking)
Thank you, I can contact you when future studies are being organised and pass on your details to the CFS Discovery clinic.
Controlling for variables is important but difficult. The longitudinal studies will allow much better control of these variables than the "snapshot" profile study we did here.
Yes, the high anion gaps are significant. The cause of the gap is interesting to me, a consistent lower HCO3- fits very nicely into hypotheses about the under-use of the mitochondria (TCA cycle) for energy production. Low albumin fits with this paper and many others that suggest a reduced level of amino acids in the blood.
Picturing Chris Armstrong and the Metabolights might be possible but hearing it would be unbearable.
- Messages
- 67
First of all:
Second of all, I do wonder about this. Like, I really want to be that researcher that gathers up EVERYONE'S LAB DATA OF EVER and analyzes it.
But I can't use stepwise regression to link this stuff, apparently. I was doing research for a paper I'm reviewing and apparently it's Of The Devil. This makes me worry, because I can't imagine how many social science papers are floating around out there, thinking that they prove something. I mean, how do those papers even sleep at night?
-J
Yes I will say that different departments of research do seem to have very different standards when it comes to statistics. Everything in research is a theory but a stat tends to be seen as a fact and it does appear that people try to use them to add weight to their theory in scenarios where they aren't appropriate.
MeSci
ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
- Messages
- 8,231
- Location
- Cornwall, UK
and yet again my own results don't fit - I have had high-normal to high albumin for many years.
Would albumin be affected by exertion? We are talking about serum, not urine?
- Messages
- 67
Yeah we are talking about serum albumin and there are many factors affecting its concentration (water content of blood, diet, exercise, hormones). Individual results will always vary, there are many factors that control metabolites and proteins. Not being aligned or being aligned with any of these results doesn't define your condition or the hypothesis. This is the reason that studying metabolite changes over time in individuals appears to be the next logical step. We need to identify the fluctuations in response to a variety of stressors and how that differs from people without ME/CFS.
Last edited:
Hutan
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,099
- Location
- New Zealand
Yes, my daughter, my son and I all got what seemed to be an acute viral infection followed by ME symptoms, all at roughly the same time. Although our symptoms were very very similar, there wasn't much in our (non-comprehensive) blood tests that was consistent. My daughter has since regained nearly full health.
The high anion gaps are one of the few blood test result anomalies my son and I share. My albumin levels are consistently low, my son's are consistently high-normal, whereas his levels of ALT and ALP are consistently low.
My CRP levels are consistently moderately elevated, my son's are not. My son's white cell, lymphocyte and neutrophil counts are consistently low normal to low; mine are not. Our iron tests look very different from each other and over time, except that transferrin saturation is consistently high in both of us.
One of the few advantages of having multiple family members contract this illness at the same time is that a whole range of hypotheses that would have looked very plausible with a sample size of one just don't stand up with a sample size of three.
Chris, yes, please do let us know via this forum when you are recruiting for your next studies. Best wishes for attracting funding - hopefully the excitement over the Rituximab results translates into increased funding for all types of ME biomedical research.
- Messages
- 67
Thought you might be interested in this.
http://www.meaction.net/2016/06/04/ron-davis-errors-metabolism/
It is a link to an article about Ron Davis's labs preliminary work. It is very exciting to us because at this point it looks like their work is replicating the results we found with the metabolites. Once they go through the genetic component they will surely be able to bring to light more information on what is happening here.
Last edited:
JaimeS
Senior Member
- Messages
- 3,408
- Location
- Silicon Valley, CA
I'm laughing a wee bit, @ChrisArmstrong ... I'm the editor at #MEAction, and Alex and myself made contributions to the article you linked! I was the one who inserted your study; before that, it said 'there have been no studies that demonstrate errors in glycolysis up to this point...'
-J
JaimeS
Senior Member
- Messages
- 3,408
- Location
- Silicon Valley, CA
...hahaha and then one realizes this is Ron Davis.
- Messages
- 67
Oh haha thank you very much! You agreed with this work from the very beginning as well. Yeah I had to alert a few people at the conference actually. I guess it's easy to do considering we haven't really mixed with those involved in ME/CFS research much and it can be difficult to find papers sometimes. Beyond ours though there are a few previous studies that have seen these anomalies in separation. Our paper was the first to see the amino acid catabolism as a source of ATP production in place of glycolysis as far as I'm aware though. The combination of inhibited glycolysis and amino acid catabolism may be something unique to the muscle fatigue experienced and sometimes symptom of increased joint flexibility. Guessing that will be the next thing to come out. We're about to release some information on the microbes and fecal metabolites from these patients as well, will let you know when it's available. Thanks again!