Mending adrenal glands - rising cortisol and feeling DRASTICALLY improved

[rydra_wong]

I take pregnenolone also thx. I take it to make progesterone to balance out the estrogen from the DHEA. I cannot take progesterone or much pregnenolone...it causes me to retain water and raises my b.p. I take 75mg DHEA and 30mg pregnenolone. It is more reasonable to take 100mg pregnenolone and 25mg DHEA but that does not work for me. There are others like me who need this topsy turvy ratio (more DHEA than pregnenolone). I am not an only - just an almost-only.

 

[sandralee]

Hi Saldralee,
There are two different scales for measuring cortisol - the Wikipedia article says what is normal on both scales
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol#Normal_levels
On one scale your results do seem to be normal but on the other they're not.

Hi Athene,

Thanks for your reply. I've looked at the wikipedia tables before, but it only gives comparisons for plasma and urinary cortisol.

I have results for saliva measured in nmol/L. I can't seem to find a table for optimum levels for this.

Sandra

 

[heapsreal]

I take pregnenolone also thx. I take it to make progesterone to balance out the estrogen from the DHEA. I cannot take progesterone or much pregnenolone...it causes me to retain water and raises my b.p. I take 75mg DHEA and 30mg pregnenolone. It is more reasonable to take 100mg pregnenolone and 25mg DHEA but that does not work for me. There are others like me who need this topsy turvy ratio (more DHEA than pregnenolone). I am not an only - just an almost-only.

I couldnt handle a 50mg preg/50mgdhea combo. I seem to be handling 10mg of each but i think any higher would cause too much agitation. I know when just using pregnenolone that the difference between using 10mg and 20mg is a horrible night trying to sleep, so seem sensitive to small doses of preg. It seems strange when alot of sites recommend 50-100mg and say its totally safe with no know side effects, mmm dont know about that, its something u have to monitor closely i think or maybe just another quirky cfs thing.

cheers!!!

 

[sandralee]

SandraLee
What is important is your DHEA:cortisol ratio. You want a youthful 10:1 to handle stress. I don't know that much about cortisol readings but I know for a fact that if the RATIO is not right it causes inability to handle stress, panic, low blood sugar (undeserved and HARD to banish), etc (I suffer from all these from time to time, such as when applying flea products to my pets -- the poison is SUCH a stress to my body it drives me into a FOREVER low blood sugar attack, which DHEA or adrenal extract banishes).

That is what *I* know (and I can support it at some time expense (I lost my memory stick). (To maximize (normalize) that ratio will require DHEA supplementation if over 30, which is when DHEA peaks...although no one ever supplements it until over 50).

But here are some detailed articles about adrenal issues specifically:

Go here to find out all sorts of stuff about adrenal issues and testing for them: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/faq/
Excellent article here (from the stopthethyroidmadness pick list: http://www.drlam.com/articles/adrenal_fatigue.asp
Here is the pick from stopthethyroidmadness to explain labs: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/lab-values/

and it says:
24-HOUR CORTISOL SALIVA TEST: An at-home test to evaluate your circadian cortisol levels at key times during a 24 hour period. Those will healthy adrenal function will have the follow results:

8 am: at the literal top of the range
11 am-noon: in the upper quarter
4-5 pm: mid-range
11 pm to midnight: at the very bottom.

Here Janie shows normal and abnormal adrenals via pictorial charts (her labs divide the chart into regions and this is also an important diagnostic. In her book (and probably at her website somewhere) she tells hwo you can divide yours up into regions to make that second diagnostic if the lab doesn't do it:
http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI Normal.html

Hi Rydra,

Thanks very much for these links. I'll check them all out when I'm in better cognitive shape.

I supplemented with DHEA about ten years ago, and honestly can't remember whether I stopped then because of side effects or no result.

When you've tried as many things as I have over the years, you forget . Maybe I'll revisit DHEA again.

Sandra

 

[rydra_wong]

heapsreal-with-the-cool-avatar,

Have you tried DHEA??? (try it w/o the pregnenolone at first maybe). It has absolutely the opposit effect on me than what you are finding with pregnenolone. I have no idea if I could tolerate pregnenolone by itself...I have never tried it. I started with 50mg DHEA and raised it to 75mg when the effect wore off by morning (making getting up hard and me likely to waste a lot of time). I only take the pregnenolone as a cancer preventative as an afterthought. I started with just DHEA.

 

[rydra_wong]

Sandra.

your lab gave you ranges. Just concentrate on thiese 4 lines from above:

8 am: your cortisol should be at the literal top of the range
11 am-noon: cortisol should be in the upper quarter of the range
4-5 pm: your cortisol should be mid-range
11 pm to midnight: your cortisol should be at the very bottom of the range (so you can sleep)

 

[rydra_wong]

Sandra, what do you like? I can find you a cool avatar which might make you smile!

 

[sandralee]

Sandra.

your lab gave you ranges. Just concentrate on thiese 4 lines from above:

8 am: your cortisol should be at the literal top of the range
11 am-noon: cortisol should be in the upper quarter of the range
4-5 pm: your cortisol should be mid-range
11 pm to midnight: your cortisol should be at the very bottom of the range (so you can sleep)

Hi Rydra,

My first 2 readings are disastrous, but the last 2 are fine.

I always thought that the first 2 morning readings were far too low, but my doctor, who is usually up on these things, said that they were ok. Also, when I sent Dr Sarah Myhill a number of test results for comment, she made no mention of the adrenal results, which I found surprising.

I think I wanted to believe that I didnt have adrenal issues, as I don't fair well when tinkering with hormone levels.

Thanks for your assistance.

Sandra

 

[sandralee]

Sandra, what do you like? I can find you a cool avatar which might make you smile!

Hi Rydra,

Can you find me an avatar that speaks? Lol. Actually Im totally blind so I just dont think in terms of pictures.

Maybe I should start a thread asking people to give me a verbal description of different avatars, and then I could pick one which I think suits my personality ;-).

Seriously, thanks for your offer.

Sandra

 

[Athene]

I tried this protocol and made me worse.
Most of the supplements Dr Wilson talks about I found too stimulating, except for Vitamin C which he believes is the most important nutrient the body needs to manufacture adrenal hormones. Magnesium was also good.
Felt like on amphetamines when I tried the glandulars and Ginseng.
Of all the herbs the only helpful has been Ashwagandha.
It's the only remedy I tried, out of many, that incidentally gives me restful sleep.
All in all I found Dr Wilson's protocol not suitable for CFS/immune-related adrenal fatigue.

Hi Baccarat,
Did you try the herbs and supplements at the same time, or start just with nutrients? I did start out with nutrients and Siberian Ginseng as well, and that made me pretty hyperactive for 2 weeks then gave me a total crash..... so, yes, definitely too stimulating!!!!
I had the same effect, to a lesser extent, when I re-started with just nutrients, but only for the first 2 weeks. It felt like being very keyed up just before an important exam. Based on what Ryda has said, I wonder if that means my cortisol/DHEA balance was off? Whatever it was, it's worn off now anyway.

Ryda, you're an absolute goldmine of info!
Does your salt problem make your blood pressure fluctuate rapidly and wildly? My mother has this problem and the doctor cannot figure out why. I am wondering if she has the same issue you have.

 

[baccarat]

Hi Athene,
I tried the nutrients first and were too stimulating, I think in particular the B5 was too much.
I think in my case the adrenal issue is secondary to immune dysregulation. It's a bit like the mitochondrial theory. I also tried that approach but found the supplements too stimulating also. I believe in my case all is caused by my immune system and I feel that if I manage to fix that, then the adrenal and all the rest will rebalance as a result.

 

[snowathlete]

Here are my recent saliva cortisol results:

8am 7
Midday less than 5
6pm 8
10pm less than 5

I had a similar saliva cortisol test. What rydra_wong says about the curve is exactly right. Here are my results, with the normal ranges in brackets!
Post awakening - 9.4 (12-22 nmol/l)
4/5 hours later - 4.1 (5-9 nmol/l)
4/5 hours later - 3 (3-7 nmol/l)
prior to sleep - 2.3 (1-3 nmol/l)
total cortisol - 18 (21-41 nmol/l)
DHEA Mean - 1.12 (0.40-1.47 nmol/l)
DHEA Cortisol Ratio - 5.93 (2-6 nmol/l)

Basically you get alot of it in the morning to help you get going, and you want it low at night so that you can sleep.

My cortisol is below range, except for hte evening, but thats the one time when you WANT a low reading! So the fact it is in range isnt really the point. This is probably why i had sleep problems till i got medicated for that.

What is also striking about my results is that I have a low TOTAL cortisol.
This would seem to suggest that my adrenal glands and knackered out.

Thanks to this post reminding me how bad my results are, i am going to try the supplements mentioned in the original post and see what happens. I'll let you know in about a month.

Best
Joel

 

[Snow Leopard]

What is also striking about my results is that I have a low TOTAL cortisol.
This would seem to suggest that my adrenal glands and knackered out.

Actually, I'm not sure they are low enough to suggest that. They might simply suggest that you have a low-stress lifestyle. The typical lab ranges are based on workday testing, the average person is exposed to more daily stressors than a typical (mostly) housebound CFS patient.

 

[snowathlete]

Actually, I'm not sure they are low enough to suggest that. They might simply suggest that you have a low-stress lifestyle. The typical lab ranges are based on workday testing, the average person is exposed to more daily stressors than a typical (mostly) housebound CFS patient.

I agree that the context is important, but, I had these adrenal tests while I was still working full-time, In a very stressful and high pressure job, while suffering with ME/CFS but without a diagnosis. I would have worked the day of the test because i was working 7 days a week and had been for over three years at the time, almost none stop.

Its also not just the low value, which is below the lower value of normal, but its also less than half of the top of normal. Which you need to bare in mind aswell.

in fact, thinking about it, there was a possible work related cause for my me/cfs: i went on a buss trip to india at short notice and had to get some jabs a few days before the trip, instead of the reccomended couple of weeks. i felt rough the day after and then in india got really ill and even had to see a doctor there. he thought i might be jet lagged and gave me sleeping pills. he might have been right. but i always wondered if the vaccination was a factor. i got ill gradually pover the next year.

 

[rydra_wong]

Regarding this topic, I thought I'd pass on what I found at the other website posted by MantisStyle. He says this is from the same book by Dr. Wilson:

Regarding the yeast thing, apparently copper is used by the body to keep yeast under control. But when the adrenals are weak, the copper is not properly bound, so it accumulates and cannot be used by the body. So maybe if someone with yeast problems can get their adrenals under control with active b12, zinc (antagonistic to copper), vitamin e, (i would guess selenium), and other vits/ minerals, maybe the yeast would be properly controlled again.

Here is the link:
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/candida.htm

and a quote from it:

Copper is the bodys natural anti-candida agent. Farmers often spray copper sulfate on fruits and vegetables to kill yeast and molds. Water departments may add copper compounds to drinking water for the same reason. Copper may be added to swimming pools and hot tubs to control yeast. Copper favors aerobic metabolism which disables yeast.

Everyone with candida has a copper imbalance. Most often, copper is present but not available to the body. This is due to deficiency of ceruloplasmin, a copper binding protein. Adrenal hormones are required to produce ceruloplasmin. Underactive, exhausted adrenal glands or sluggish liver activity cause a decrease in ceruloplasmin production. As a result, copper is not properly bound and is less available to the body. Until the copper-adrenal-liver condition is corrected, candida is difficult to control.

So, basically, copper builds in the tissues, but it cannot be utilized I believe unless the body is producing enough ceruloplasmin which is the job of the adrenals...

 

[rydra_wong]

Also found this as I was looking for a note on how to get a Hair Analysis at traceelements.com to assess copper:zinc ratio. This is also from MantisStyle:

traceelements.com only goes through health practitioners. I did find this link for a traceelements.com hair analysis for $95 which is inexpensive for a hair analysis! http://www.evenbetternow.com/proddet...issue_analysis

I have never used it though, so not sure how prompt they are.

Also, for hair analysis, I have used Analytical Labs multiple times in the past. They seem good. I have heard they do not wash the hair samples, but to be positive, a person interested in them should call to confirm. You have to go through a health practitioner to get one from them as well. Here is a link to the health practitioner for that (different from the trace elements practitioner that i am using). http://advancedfamilyhealth.com/hair_analysis.html

 

[Athene]

Regarding this topic, I thought I'd pass on what I found at the other website posted by MantisStyle. He says this is from the same book by Dr. Wilson:

Regarding the yeast thing, apparently copper is used by the body to keep yeast under control. But when the adrenals are weak, the copper is not properly bound, so it accumulates and cannot be used by the body. So maybe if someone with yeast problems can get their adrenals under control with active b12, zinc (antagonistic to copper), vitamin e, (i would guess selenium), and other vits/ minerals, maybe the yeast would be properly controlled again.

Here is the link:
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/candida.htm

and a quote from it:

Copper is the bodys natural anti-candida agent. Farmers often spray copper sulfate on fruits and vegetables to kill yeast and molds. Water departments may add copper compounds to drinking water for the same reason. Copper may be added to swimming pools and hot tubs to control yeast. Copper favors aerobic metabolism which disables yeast.

Everyone with candida has a copper imbalance. Most often, copper is present but not available to the body. This is due to deficiency of ceruloplasmin, a copper binding protein. Adrenal hormones are required to produce ceruloplasmin. Underactive, exhausted adrenal glands or sluggish liver activity cause a decrease in ceruloplasmin production. As a result, copper is not properly bound and is less available to the body. Until the copper-adrenal-liver condition is corrected, candida is difficult to control.

So, basically, copper builds in the tissues, but it cannot be utilized I believe unless the body is producing enough ceruloplasmin which is the job of the adrenals...

Oh Ryda, you are now officially my Guru. Actually, could you become my Doctor please?!!
You've just explained my 28-year battle with intestinal candidiasis!!! I've already been tested and found I have about 20 times the upper normal limit of copper, but nobody ever connected that to candida.

Snow leopard, I don't really agree that staying at home with CF is less stressful than working. Maybe for a few people, but I know I am not the only one who gets quietly hysterical stuck indoors worrying that I have NO MONEY and will probably end my life living in a ditch, begging. I've never had a job that could stress me that much!!! (And I have had some pretty awful jobs actually....)

I was told by KDM, and my own doctor, that they set the limits of "normal cortisol" so wide that any type of person falls within them unless there is a genuine problem. (Though maybe different labs have different limits, but that seems odd to me??)
The lower limit is defined at a level at which there could be potentially at risk of coma or cardiac arrest should a situation arise where they need a rapid increase in cortisol and the adrenals cannot rise to the occasion.
I do know from reading a forum for people with Addisons disease that the vast majority of them never actually went below that limit, even though they had clear diagnoses of Addisons disease in the stress test, and that most of them had been severely ill for a long time (years in many cases) before they managed to get a diagnosis for this very reason - they all felt strongly that the lower limit should be set higher, certainly for the morning measurement though maybe not the evening one.

 

[Athene]

I've just found a website with heaps of info on adrenal fatigue:

http://www.drlam.com/adrenalfatiguecenter/

 

[snowathlete]

OK my order arrived today and I'm starting these suplements now as part of my overal treatment plan.
This is what I got which I think is fairly close to what the Veronica listed? I plan to take one of each a day. Veronica, some are lower than your taking. Do you think i need to take more? Especially Vitamin C, where you are taking 4X as much as I am thinking of taking, as even 1500mg looks like a lot to me. Whats your take on this?

COMPLETE B (which includes among other things 100mg of B5, 25mg B3, 25mg of B12)
P-5-P (B6) 50 mg
VITAMIN C-1500 mg. with ROSE HIPS Time Releas
CHELATED CALCIUM (400mg) MAGNESIUM (1000mg) ZINC
NATURAL E-400 IU MIXED TOCOPHEROLS (400mg)
PSYLLIUM HUSK SEED 100% NATURAL

I also didnt remember to get Vit B5, the B complex contains 100mg, but Veronica, you suggest 1500mg, so do i need to go buy some of these too?

Thanks
Joel

 

[heapsreal]

OK my order arrived today and I'm starting these suplements now as part of my overal treatment plan.
This is what I got which I think is fairly close to what the Veronica listed? I plan to take one of each a day. Veronica, some are lower than your taking. Do you think i need to take more? Especially Vitamin C, where you are taking 4X as much as I am thinking of taking, as even 1500mg looks like a lot to me. Whats your take on this?

COMPLETE B (which includes among other things 100mg of B5, 25mg B3, 25mg of B12)
P-5-P (B6) 50 mg
VITAMIN C-1500 mg. with ROSE HIPS Time Releas
CHELATED CALCIUM (400mg) MAGNESIUM (1000mg) ZINC
NATURAL E-400 IU MIXED TOCOPHEROLS (400mg)
PSYLLIUM HUSK SEED 100% NATURAL

I also didnt remember to get Vit B5, the B complex contains 100mg, but Veronica, you suggest 1500mg, so do i need to go buy some of these too?

Thanks
Joel

go slow with the B5 has i found too much over stimulated me, i had 500mg tabs and one was enough if i took a second, this was when i got overstimulated and had sleep problems. !00mg increments might be a safer way to go until u find the right dosage.

I know dr Lam is anti hormones but i think this is when people try it themselves without testing. If u could it would be worth getting a saliva dhea, cortisol test done and or a blood tests with all hormones done and then supplement the one thats are low starting at the top the hormone cascade with pregnenolone and retest and see how it effects other hormones and then maybe add dhea then progesterone etc Start low with these treatments and go up slowly, if u get a bad reaction maybe look at changing the combo of hormones or drop one again. But see how you go on the non hormal stuff first though.

cheers!!!

cheers!!!