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MEA: Make M.E. Better campaign

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
@charles shepherd perhaps you misunderstand because you didn't include the point I made when you quoted me.
I know that people are very willing to donate to specific projects. I initiated the Let's Do It for ME campaign with fellow sufferers of severe ME in 2011 for that reason - to raise a target amount for the foundation study of the Invest in ME Research Centre of Excellence translational biomedical research strategy, followed by crowdfunding next phases of the gut research as well as a UK clinical trial of rituximab, preceded by research on B cells as the aim is to add value to the Phase III multi-centre trial currently in progress in Norway. My distaste is at the implication that this study will 'Make ME Better'. It's not just semantics. It's a style that makes me feel it's playing on my hopes for a cure. You've described in your reply a few more projects that MEA plans to spend its donations on, which serves to prove my point. Don't worry about replying. I know I find it hard to express myself clearly. I'll just repost what I'd said here.

I don't think that by using the eye catching slogan 'Make ME better' we are saying that this new metabolomic research is going to find a 'cure' (a word I normally avoid using in relation to ME/CFS) for ME/CFS

Making something better implies to me that we are doing something to try and improve the situation from the point of view of both diagnosis and treatment and there is no mention of a cure being found in the MEA website statement:

http://www.meassociation.org.uk/201...hristmas-appeal-starts-today-9-november-2016/

As you should know by now, I am a very cautious doctor and these quotes come from the press release on this new research initiative:

Dr Charles Shepherd, medical adviser for the ME Association, which is funding the £50,000 research, said:

“Put simply, this is the hunt for a smoking gun.

“If this new research can continue the work of the Naviaux study, if it could lead us to develop a diagnostic test for the illness. This would then open the door to greater interest in research, and crucially, by pharmaceutical companies into drug development.

All the feedback that we have had so far has been very positive - this is the only complaint
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Don't get me wrong, I'm only too pleased to hear that MEA plans to spend donations. It had £423.6k to be held for future use at the end of December 2015 - http://apps.charitycommission.gov.u...steredCharityNumber=801279&SubsidiaryNumber=0

I don't think anyone's asked for their money back from the 2013 MEA rituximab appeal, when the funds were announced as ringfenced for two years, and then extended indefinitely two years later when no researchers had come forward with a grant application, and now Charles Shepherd has reiterated that those funds will retained pending the possibility of a CMRC-led multi-centre UK trial after the Norwegian results are published (which should be in 2018 I think).


This is our most recent MEA statement on the money that is being held in the Ramsay Research Fund to help co-fund a clinical trial of Rituximab here in the UK:

http://www.meassociation.org.uk/2016/05/rituximab-update-by-the-me-association-23-may-2016/

We have had one very preliminary expression of interest so far - which was not followed up with a grant application

We would very much welcome applications from any clinical trials research group (preferably here in the UK but we would consider overseas applications) to make use of this funding

I would add that Professor Edwards is aware that this funding is available

Trustees will continue to review the situation
 

Cinders66

Senior Member
Messages
494
On the facebook post by Helen it doesn't explain the steps of this study, along with the others, helping to understand the illness and develop tests which THEN could lead to greater interest and THEN treatments being developed. I agree with Jo - I read it , and I think it's 1 simplistic interpretation, as, give to this study and it could bring us a a test and treatment therefore encourage friends to donate and pwME will get the best present of opportunity to get better.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Fundraising is going really well - we have raised 6% of the target in the first 24 hours

Report from Helen Hyland, our fundraiser:

We’re thrilled that our Christmas Appeal has got off to such a great start. We've hit over 6% of our target in just 24 hours.

A HUGE thank you to everyone who has already donated. Your donations and so many positive and kind messages of support mean so much to us.

We’re deliberately doing things a little differently this year. No strict deadlines or hoops to jump through, but you DO have the option of fundraising for this Appeal if you would like to do so.

Fundraising is a great way to get friends and family involved in a fun way and no matter how much or how little you raise, you’ll be spreading awareness of what we are trying to do. We’ve already got some keen fundraisers, but the more, the merrier: – Elisabeth is to be joining the Big Sleep Out on 25th November, – Lindsay and Richard are seeking donations in lieu of presents at their Ruby Wedding celebrations, and – Ashwin and Jayden will be running in the Santa Dash in Loughborough.

If you would like to join our team of Make ME Better Appeal fundraisers, simply click on the ‘Start fundraising’ tab of the campaign page to get started. https://www.justgiving.com/…/cha…/meassociation/makemebetter

And do please remember that I’m here to give fundraising support and supplies as you need them –

helen.hyland@meassociation.org.uk
 

MEMum

Senior Member
Messages
440
This is our most recent MEA statement on the money that is being held in the Ramsay Research Fund to help co-fund a clinical trial of Rituximab here in the UK:

http://www.meassociation.org.uk/2016/05/rituximab-update-by-the-me-association-23-may-2016/

We have had one very preliminary expression of interest so far - which was not followed up with a grant application

We would very much welcome applications from any clinical trials research group (preferably here in the UK but we would consider overseas applications) to make use of this funding

I would add that Professor Edwards is aware that this funding is available

Trustees will continue to review the situation

You are doing a brilliant job Dr Shepherd and we really appreciate your input on PR together with all you do for PwME.

I am personally a bit disappointed that we do not hear more from IiME, about the status of the Rituximab trial,
At the summer conference it was announced that the trial would happen at Norwich.
From pms on here I learnt that funding was not the problem. but that it wouldn't br happening at UCL. This was prior to 2016.
All we here are snippets from Norwegians (very grateful) that exciting things are happening, whispers that in US there have been problems....

If they are holding 'fire' until F & M have prelim results it would be good to know.

I should probably be emailing them,rather than derailing this thread further.... apologies
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
On the facebook post by Helen it doesn't explain the steps of this study, along with the others, helping to understand the illness and develop tests which THEN could lead to greater interest and THEN treatments being developed. I agree with Jo - I read it , and I think it's 1 simplistic interpretation, as, give to this study and it could bring us a a test and treatment therefore encourage friends to donate and pwME will get the best present of opportunity to get better.

We are going to provide a more detailed explanation of the way in which these research findings could not only help with finding diagnostic or subgrouping biomarkers, but could also provide information that will lead to new approaches to drug treatment being assessed, in due course

We wanted to start off with a very simple announcement

Judging by the feedback to the MEA so far, and the donations that are being made, this approach has been very effective
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
You are doing a brilliant job Dr Shepherd and we really appreciate your input on PR together with all you do for PwME.

I am personally a bit disappointed that we do not hear more from IiME, about the status of the Rituximab trial,
At the summer conference it was announced that the trial would happen at Norwich.
From pms on here I learnt that funding was not the problem. but that it wouldn't br happening at UCL. This was prior to 2016.
All we here are snippets from Norwegians (very grateful) that exciting things are happening, whispers that in US there have been problems....

If they are holding 'fire' until F & M have prelim results it would be good to know.

I should probably be emailing them,rather than derailing this thread further.... apologies

What is happening re the location of the proposed UK Rituximab trial that people are fundraising for at the moment is really a question for Professor Edwards - I heard from Jonathan last week but I don't know if he is around at the moment….
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
What is happening re the location of the proposed UK Rituximab trial that people are fundraising for at the moment is really a question for Professor Edwards - I heard from Jonathan last week but I don't know if he is around at the moment….

These are my notes on the two relevant presentations that went into the MEA report on the Invest conference this year:

Dr Geraldine (Jo) Cambridge – Principle Research Fellow Inflammation, Division of Medicine Faculty of Medical Sciences, University College London (UCL) – and Fane Mensah


B cell biology and Rituximab treatment in patients with ME/CFS


Photos:


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dr+jo+cambridge+ucl&biw=1608&bih=1018&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwio2PfvpJ3NAhUqDMAKHfaQBOoQ_AUICCgD#imgrc=gak1pFTSAUHgnM%3A


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fane+mensah&biw=1608&bih=1018&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS5vCepZ3NAhWJKcAKHSCGBvYQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=-_UG0Q1aW7KqzM%3A



Dr Jo Cambridge gave an excellent and easy to understand presentation on B cell function in general, how B cell dysfunction and the production of autoantibodies might relate to the immunopathology of ME/CFS, and the practical aspects of using rituximab to treat non-malignant conditions.


Dr Cambridge started off by explaining how she belonged to a group of researchers at UCL, including Professor Jonathan Edwards, who have a particular interest in how a drug called rituximab, which was originally used to treat a malignant condition called lymphoma, depletes the population of a specific type of immune cells called B cells. Rituximab was then found to effectively treat some cases of rheumatoid arthritis (RA) and other autoimmune conditions such as SLE/lupus where inflammation is an important part of the underlying disease process.


Photo rituximab:


http://www.meassociation.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/9-18-2010-rituximab.gif



Among the key points made in relation to the use of rituximab in RA and to the way in which it might also act in ME/CFS:


· This research has produced information about how rituximab can produce a significant remission of symptoms (in around 70% of RA patients) and the resumption of symptoms (in around 60% of RA patients) once the B cell population has been restored.


· Patients with high levels of autoantibodies (= antibodies that attack the body’s own tissues) have a far more pronounced and predictable response than those with no evidence of autoantibodies.


· B cells are killed off very quickly by rituximab – the drug binds to cells that express what is called a CD-20 receptor. This usually occurs within a week of the infusions - which are given intravenously over 6 hours. The B cells therefore start to disappear from the blood within days and from other tissues at varying rates. But the dynamics of the clinical response – which takes from 1 to 5 months after depletion of the B cells – suggests that it is the constantly generated B-cell product (possibly an autoantibody) and not the B cells themselves that need to be reduced for remission to occur.


· A considerable proportion of the B cells are not depleted and remain in protective sites in lymphoid and inflamed tissues.


· Levels of autoantibodies can therefore remain raised, even in the presence of an improvement in clinical symptoms.


· These observations suggest that only a proportion of parent B cells and autoantibodies are actually ‘pathogenic’ (= involved in disease causing mechanisms). And, as a proportion of patients then relapse, the autoimmune response underlying the disease causing process must be self-sustaining.


· Patients are not therefore normally ‘cured’ by rituximab and symptoms can worsen when the B cells start regenerating – which takes place 6 to 9 months after the infusion. However, some patients have a more extended period of remission after the B cells return.


· Side-effects are rare and although reductions in serum antibody levels (which provide protection against infections) occur, the effects on protective immunity are mild and serious infections are not a problem.


In relation to the use of rituximab in ME/CFS, we are very much at the beginning of a learning process – which follows on from the clinical trials that have been carried out and published by Drs Fluge and Mella in Norway.


The UCL research team is concentrating on investigating B cell biology in order to try and identify differences between people with ME/CFS and healthy controls to see if this can help identify people with ME/CFS who are more likely to respond to this drug.


The group has hypothesized that rituximab may be reducing fatigue levels in ME/CFS as a result of decreasing the production of immune system chemicals called cytokines (i.e interferon alpha) through the removal of autoantibody containing (pro-inflammatory) immune complexes. Rituximab would therefore be working by stopping the production of (as yet) only tentatively identified pathogenic antibodies.


Fane Manesh, a PhD student at UCL, then spoke about the work that has been carried out into phenotyping sub-populations of naïve and memory B cells in people with ME/CFS. The group has published data on these B cells, showing that a specific cell maturation marker called CD-24 is upregulated or retained by the newly generated B cells. As a result, they have been using cells from patients and healthy controls to follow B cell development patterns, and interactions with T cells, in response to certain stimuli. The group has also established an in vitro system (= performed in a test tube) where they can compare the metabolic function of B cells in ME/CFS patients and in healthy controls as well as what is termed mitochondrial mass.


Dr Cambridge did not put any 'meat on the bone' regarding which clinicians might/would be involved in a UK trial; where the trial might/would take place; the development of the protocol; and when a clinical trial might/would take place here in the UK till the Q and A session – where she explained the difficulties involved in setting up a UK trial for a drug like rituximab.


According to Dr Cambridge, it is going to be very hard to get a clinical trial going here in the UK due to a combination of developing a protocol, obtaining ethical approval, finding committed clinicians to carry out the work, the work being expensive in both cost and time, and the lack of pharmaceutical backing for a drug that is quite expensive to use – something that has occurred in other clinical trials involving rituximab.


Dr Cambridge also repeated the advice that has come from Drs Fluge and Mella in Norway that rituximab should not be used on patients with ME/CFS outside proper clinical trials in our present state of knowledge.


CS note: I was going to ask Dr Cambridge over lunch what she thought about the less positive patient evidence from people with ME/CFS who have been treated with rituximab in America outside the Norwegian clinical trial (an important point that was raised during the clinical and research meeting in Sussex with Dr Amolak Bansal and myself three weeks ago) but wasn't able to do so.


Further information:


Mensah F et al. Extended B cell phenotype in patients with myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome.

Clinical Experimental Immunology. 2016,184 :237-47.


Most recent MEA statement on rituximab: http://www.meassociation.org.uk/2016/05/rituximab-update-by-the-me-association-23-may-2016/
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
And if we are unable to find a solution to long term funding for the ME Biobank, this could well involve another £40,000+ in 2018

Just wondering why this costs so much and what is the economic model for the biobank ?
Do external researchers pay to use the bio bank ?
Wouldn't this be a no-brainer for Welcome or another body to fund ?
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
People are quibbling about the title? That's absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Seems like some are finding the least little thing to criticize or possibly there's a personal grudge but that's speculation on my part and may not be accurate.

@charles shepherd has spent his valuable time and energy working on issues important to our health and that is to be commended.

He has a lot better things to do than having to defend himself and the study, especially when many of the questions have been asked and answered.

Dr. Shepherd is far more patient than I would be and don't forget he's ialso a patient. A patient patient.:rolleyes:

While Dr. Shepherd is more than capable of defending himself, I think it's an important issue affecting this thread.

On a different note, some of these criticisms are on par with the type of for lack of a better analogy as deciding someone is of the BPS just because they worked with someone whose great aunt just happened to board the same bus as EC. Of course that's exaggerated to make a point.

Ever hear of the McCarthy hearings of the late 1940s early 1950s? It might be worth it to find out about or review this horrific and embarrassing moment in US history.

I'm sure some will find my criticisms overly harsh but keep in mind this is my opinion so take responsibility for it.

Maybe this isn't the appropriate place for my comments as they are off task. I'll let the mods decide that and what will be will be.
 

BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
He has a lot better things to do than having to defend himself and the study, especially when many of the questions have been asked and answered.

Dr. Shepherd is far more patient than I would be and don't forget he's ialso a patient. A patient patient.:rolleyes:

While Dr. Shepherd is more than capable of defending himself, I think it's an important issue affecting this thread.


I actually thought there were some very good questions asked and answered on this thread. Some nice compliments thrown in too, for good measure.
Maybe the other threads I am reading are just so bad this one seems like a nice one.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Just wondering why this costs so much and what is the economic model for the biobank ?
Do external researchers pay to use the bio bank ?
Wouldn't this be a no-brainer for Welcome or another body to fund ?

Apologies if I don't go into great detail about how this money is spent at the ME Biobank

The MEA RRF is now the sole funder for everything that is involved in:

1 supervising and maintaining the current contents of the ME Biobank (i.e. blood samples from over 500 people, which translates into over 30,000 aliquots)

2 dealing with new samples that are still being collected, couriered, processed and stored

3 promoting the availability of the ME biobank (website, direct contact, attending meetings and conferences)

4 dealing with all aspects of requests for samples (processing applications, peer review, ethical approval etc) and their supply and monitoring

This obviously involves paying some staff (who all carry out various aspects of the Biobank work as part time components to their other work) as well as a whole range of administrative and infrastructure costs

The aim is to eventually pay a significant component of these on-going running costs through payments for samples but this isn't possible at this point in the development process

There have been preliminary approaches to potential long term funders (charitable trusts, government funding agencies) but we believe it's important to demonstrate that we have achieved everything we set out to do (and we are almost there!) before submitting a formal application
 

Cinders66

Senior Member
Messages
494
People are quibbling about the title? That's absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Seems like some are finding the least little thing to criticize or possibly there's a personal grudge but that's speculation on my part and may not be accurate.

@charles shepherd has spent his valuable time and energy working on issues important to our health and that is to be commended.

He has a lot better things to do than having to defend himself and the study, especially when many of the questions have been asked and answered.

Dr. Shepherd is far more patient than I would be and don't forget he's ialso a patient. A patient patient.:rolleyes:

While Dr. Shepherd is more than capable of defending himself, I think it's an important issue affecting this thread.

On a different note, some of these criticisms are on par with the type of for lack of a better analogy as deciding someone is of the BPS just because they worked with someone whose great aunt just happened to board the same bus as EC. Of course that's exaggerated to make a point.

Ever hear of the McCarthy hearings of the late 1940s early 1950s? It might be worth it to find out about or review this horrific and embarrassing moment in US history.

I'm sure some will find my criticisms overly harsh but keep in mind this is my opinion so take responsibility for it.

Maybe this isn't the appropriate place for my comments as they are off task. I'll let the mods decide that and what will be will be.


It wasn't the title it was the whole piece which sounded a bit like give us Money , we will do our study and we all get the Best present of getting better. Dr S says it's going to be explained more, which is right way to proceed IMO . Of course the study itself sounds exactly the type pwME ask for but there's legitimate concerns about the more naive been drawn to throw money at something thinking yes we are on verge of treatment, when obviously it's more complicated - and yes people can be that naive, in 2000 on reading the research in a charity magazine my family and I concluded we thought a cure likely found in a year way back then, how stupid was that... but I didn't follow forums then, was newly learning of research and ignorant of ME scientific processes generally.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
It wasn't the title it was the whole piece which sounded a bit like give us Money , we will do our study and we all get the Best present of getting better. Dr S says it's going to be explained more, which is right way to proceed IMO . Of course the study itself sounds exactly the type pwME ask for but there's legitimate concerns about the more naive been drawn to throw money at something thinking yes we are on verge of treatment, when obviously it's more complicated - and yes people can be that naive, in 2000 on reading the research in a charity magazine my family and I concluded we thought a cure likely found in a year way back then, how stupid was that... but I didn't follow forums then, was newly learning of research and ignorant of ME scientific processes generally.

I've picked out the main text (below) from the opening announcement on the MEA website

I'm sorry but I just cannot agree that we are being either irresponsible or misleading in what is being said or that we are encouraging naive patients to 'throw money' away at research that is likely to produce an almost instant cure

If the results from the Naviaux study are accurate they could represent a very significant development in the search for a diagnostic biomarker/s for ME.CFS

And the abnormalities could also open the door for assessing new approaches to drug treatment

Which is why we think it's important to do this study and to get on with it as soon as possible…..

We’ve hit 8% of our target – a little over £4,000 – in the first 24 hours. Thanks so much for your support.

Our Make ME Better campaign aims to raise £50,000 to fund scientific research which we hope could lead to a breakthrough in diagnosis and treatment of ME/CFS.

Led by Dr Karl Morten (pictured left), scientists from the University of Oxford and Newcastle University wish to spend 12 months analysing nearly 300 blood samples, looking at metabolomics – chemical clues that are left behind after changes in cells. Put simply, they’re on the hunt for a smoking gun.

The British research will pick up the gauntlet of the groundbreaking Naviaux study released by the University of California earlier this year, which suggested that ME/CFS could be the body going into a state of semi-hibernation.

Dr Morten will be working alongside Dr James McCullagh (pictured below), Associate Professor in Mass Spectrometry at the University of Oxford, and Professor Julia Newton, Dean for Clinical Medicine at Newcastle University.

Many of the blood samples will come from the ME/CFS Biobank – the first significant time they have been used by external researchers – and will be compared to those from a control group.
 

Barry53

Senior Member
Messages
2,391
Location
UK
If the results from the Naviaux study are accurate they could represent a very significant development in the search for a diagnostic biomarker/s for ME.CFS

And the abnormalities could also open the door for assessing new approaches to drug treatment
This research seems so very important to me: To try and verify the Naviaux study findings, and hopefully build on that and maybe find ways to biologically diagnose ME, rather than merely by exclusion. We must try to see the wood for the trees; it is not a perfect world, we cannot expect it to be. I can slightly understand (but not agree with) being upset about being asked for money here (with maybe a tiny touch of advertiser's licence), but I think that is hugely outweighed by the importance of this research. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 

Cinders66

Senior Member
Messages
494
I've picked out the main text (below) from the opening announcement on the MEA website

I'm sorry but I just cannot agree that we are being either irresponsible or misleading in what is being said or that we are encouraging naive patients to 'throw money' away at research that is likely to produce an almost instant cure

If the results from the Naviaux study are accurate they could represent a very significant development in the search for a diagnostic biomarker/s for ME.CFS

And the abnormalities could also open the door for assessing new approaches to drug treatment

Which is why we think it's important to do this study and to get on with it as soon as possible…..



]






ME ASSOCIATION UNVEILS IT’S MOST AMBITIOUS CHRISTMAS APPEAL EVER

Helen Hyland, our fundraising manager, writes:

Our Make ME Better campaign aims to raise £50,000 to fund scientific research which we hope could lead to a breakthrough in diagnosis and treatment of ME/CFS.
.......

The British research will pick up the gauntlet of the groundbreaking Naviaux study released by the University of California earlier this year, which suggested that ME/CFS could be the body going into a state of semi-hibernation.

.....
We know £50,000 is a big target, particularly in the run up to the festive season. But we ask everyone who can, to please help us to reach it. Making ME Better would be the best Christmas present thousands of sufferers and their families could ask for.

And I have it on the best authority (Dr Charles no less) that has a good chance of achieving that.

You can support MAKE ME BETTER



Sorry I've not said it's throwing money away, or that it's a not a worthy study, I do think the advertising of it simplistic, undo hope raising for immediate results and benefits to patients and a bit , as Barry said , too promo, than scientific appeal. I know if this was me ten years ago I'd have been reaching for the cheque book (clearly desired effect) and telling the family a treatment, to make ME better, now on the cards . Sorry I can't express this well and I'm not at all saying people are wasting money helping fund it, it's clearly worthy research which, along with the other metabolomic research going on, could help get the field moving, I just think it should have been more detailed and clear, probably written by yourself..
 

eafw

Senior Member
Messages
936
Location
UK
People are quibbling about the title?

It's only a couple of people and they're entitled to their say. Nearly everyone else in this thread has no issue with the way the appeal is being run at all (and are saying they will or have already donated)

On a different note, some of these criticisms ... Ever hear of the McCarthy hearings

This is in regard to the alliance of the MEA with the CMRC ?

If so, then again, it's not unreasonable for people to point out that we have a situation where the MEA (known to be a good, pro-patient charity) is not merely having to **deal with or negotiate with*** people who do us very real harm (as needs to be done in the world of politics) but are **choosing to form alliances with them and supporting them** - for very little (if anything) in return. The MEA, and Dr Shepherd has said they will be staying as they think there is benefit in the alliance - big tent etc - but many others don't. And people wishing that the MEA would set up in a new tent instead is not McCarthyism.
 

eafw

Senior Member
Messages
936
Location
UK
Unfortunately, I think there is a widespread belief, which is JUST NOT TRUE, that the majority of clinicians and scientists on the Board of the CMRC take the view that ME/CFS is a psychiatric or psychosomatic illness

Where is the statement (from this majority) acknowledging and apologising for the shambles that was PACE ? Or standing against NICE/CBT/GET ? Or apologising for the years of slander against patients ? Or showing any understanding of this condition as distinct from some wastebasket "fatigue" ? Or setting up a project that shows they really do understand how to conduct a good and much needed scientific study on ME ?

You (and the MEA - who we know are pro-patient and properly understand the disease) seem to be very much left standing alone on these issues.

From our side out here we can only go on what we see from the rest of them: the chair and vice chair of MEGA trotting off to the press to declare FITNET "a great study" and PACE a "great, great study" and to bleat about "hostile patients" and "rising tensions". The continual support for behavioural interventions. The conflation of ME and "CFS" (and all the consequences from that). And as said above a deafening silence on the problems with PACE/GET/NICE.

This is not "we don't like them because they think it's psychological" - even the paid-up BPS lot are spinning the "biological" line nowadays anyway, so forget that.

It is: "here we have an organisation which is supposedly full of great people championing our cause and yet ... what we see them doing ***in practice*** does not reflect those claims at all, and in fact is very often contributing to the ongoing harm done in this country against us"