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ME/CFS Research (Dr Amolak Bansal) and Management (Dr Charles Shepherd)

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
@charles shepherd : "And according to progress, make gradual and flexible increases..."

At the very least, this needs to be qualified or asterisked.

Edited to add: After a bit of reflection, I do not understand the benefit of this statement for pwME, if only because of PEM. We are not addressing exercise per se, but rather its open-ended acceleration. This seems unwise considering the eventual implications of too much exertion to much of our community.
 
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charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
@charles shepherd : "And according to progress, make gradual and flexible increases..."

At the very least, this needs to be qualified or asterisked.

Edited to add: After a bit of reflection, I do not understand the benefit of this statement for pwME, if only because of PEM. We are not addressing exercise per se, but rather its open-ended acceleration. This seems unwise considering the eventual implications of too much exertion to much of our community.

Would be helpful if you quoted my whole sentence:

"And according to progress, making gradual and flexible increases (or decreases) in both physical and mental activity"

Because pacing involves increasing OR DECREASING activity levels according to the person's current state of health and physical/mental functioning

Pacing is not an open-ended acceleration of activity here in the UK - that is graded exercise
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
No, sorry, but it would not be helpful to quote your entire sentence. Gradually increasing exercise, mental or physical, without mentioning a PEM threshold, is not pacing. Pacing assumes the patient is well aware of a threshold she must not pass. It's living in your learned envelope, and usually learned the hard way through bad PEM episodes.

Even with the "or decreases", that sentence likely does not appear to belong in any discussion about pwME.

It's not just you, @charles shepherd . I have said the same thing to at least one ME/CFS expert. I believe this towing the dogma line is unwarranted and should be discontinued where it regards pwME. Rules of thumb frequently do not apply, as I know you know.
 
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worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
No, sorry, but it would not be helpful to quote your entire sentence. Gradually increasing exercise, mental or physical, without mentioning a PEM threshold, is not pacing. Pacing assumes the patient is well aware of a threshold she must not pass. It's living in your learned envelope, and usually learned the hard way through bad PEM episodes.

Even with the "or decreases", that sentence likely does not appear to belong in any discussion about pwME.

It's not just you, @charles shepherd . I have said the same thing to at least one ME/CFS expert. I believe this towing the dogma line is unwarranted and should be discontinued where it regards pwME. Rules of thumb frequently do not apply, as I know you know.
Are you saying that no one ever gets any better and is able to do a bit more, as well as gets any worse and has to do a bit less? Speak for yourself.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
I am saying that unqualified prescriptions for open-ended increases in exercise, however gradual or well-meaning, could result in PEM for some pwME. So such recommendations should not be made without proper warnings about potential ramifications. After all, we are not simply talking about sore muscles for deconditioned people.

I am sorry you think I would presume to speak for all pwME. I feel juvenile writing "imo" after everything, don't you? The idea that this is my opinion should be implicit.
 

worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
I am sorry you think I would presume to speak for all pwME. I feel juvenile writing "imo" after everything, don't you? The idea that this is my opinion should be implicit.
It's more that you appeared to be making broad brush implications.

I agree the point about warnings, but you came across as saying that everyone would always have a firm wall that could not be passed at all times. I think the important phrase is "according to progress"; it isn't an open ended prescription, it invites the patient to make their own judgement. As such if you're picking up you can move on, if you aren't, best to hang back or, if necessary, cut back. Some activities may be fair game for progress, others out of bounds. I don't think there's an implication that patients will simply be able to exercise themselves to health here.

It's perhaps a problem in management that we need experts who are willing to engage with patients particular circumstances rather than issuing broad-brush statements, but I think that your perhaps reading a bit too much into this.

Sorry for being a bit snippy. :)
 

K22

Messages
92
Our position at the MEA on activity/energy management is very clear:

In our current state of knowledge we recommend pacing - whereby people live within their limiatations when it comes to physical and mental activities - because this is the form of activity/energy management that the majority of people in our 'patient evidence' surveys report as being safe and helpful

In practice, pacing means finding an acceptable baseline of activity, carrying out physical and mental tasks according to stage, severity and variability of the illness, and factoring in periods of rest and relaxation in between

And according to progress, making gradual and flexible increases (or decreases) in both physical and mental activity

During the research section of the meeting Dr Bansal refered to two beneficial effects of exercise - endorphin release and pain and a substance involved in neuronal repair called brain derived neurotrophic factor/BDNF - and did nothing more than say that these are two important aspects of muscle function that need to be considered when we look at research into activity/energy management

BDNF: http://www.alomone.com/p/human_bdnf/b-250/258?gclid=CLDSzZbL5swCFcE_GwodxpEDrA

There was no suggestion that the way forward is to simply encourage people with ME/CFS to increase the amount of exercise they do

MEA report on CBT, GET and Pacing: http://www.meassociation.org.uk/how-you-can-help/introduction-to-our-cbt-get-and-pacing-report/

MEA recommendations re GET and Pacing:

Graded Exercise Therapy (GET)

We conclude that GET should be withdrawn with immediate effect as a primary intervention for everyone with ME/CFS.

One of the main factors that led to patients reporting that GET was inappropriate was the very nature of GET itself, especially when it was used on the basis that there is no underlying physical cause for their symptoms, and that patients are basically ill because of inactivity and deconditioning.

A significant number of patients had been given advice on exercise and activity management that was judged harmful with symptoms becoming worse or much worse and leading to relapse. And it is worth noting that despite current NICE recommendations, a significant number of severe to very severe patients were recommended GET by practitioners and/or had taken part in GET courses.

The other major factor contributing to worsening symptoms was the incorrect belief held by some practitioners that ME/CFS is a psychological condition leading to erroneous advice that exercise could overcome the illness if only patients would ‘push through’.

We recognise that it is impossible for all treatments for a disease to be free from side-effects, but if GET was a licensed medication, we believe the number of people reporting significant adverse effects would lead to a review of its use by regulatory authorities.

As a physical exercise-based therapy, GET may be of benefit to a sub-group who come under the ME/CFS umbrella and are able to tolerate regular and progressive increases in some form of aerobic activity, irrespective of their symptoms. However, identifying a patient who could come within that sub-group is problematic and not possible at present.

Some patients indicated that they had been on a course which had a gentle approach of graded activity rather than a more robust and structured approach of graded physical exercise. There were some reports that patients were told they should not exercise when they felt too unwell to do so. These led, for some, to an improvement in symptoms or to symptoms remaining unaffected.

However, we conclude that GET cannot be regarded as a safe and effective form of treatment for the majority of people with ME/CFS. The fact that many people, including those who consider themselves severely affected, are being referred to specialist services for an intervention that makes them either worse or much worse is clearly unacceptable and in many cases dangerous.

GET should therefore be withdrawn by NICE and from NHS specialist services as a recommended treatment with immediate effect for everyone who has a diagnosis of ME/CFS. This advice should remain until there are reliable methods for determining which people who come under the ME/CFS umbrella are likely to find that GET is a safe and effective form of management.

Pacing

Pacing was consistently shown to be the most effective, safe, acceptable and preferred form of activity management for people with ME/CFS and should therefore be a key component of any illness management programme.

For some, improvement may be a slow process so, whilst they may be somewhat better by the end of a course, the improvement is not enough to take them into a better category of severity for some time, perhaps not until they have self-managed their illness for a few years.

The benefit of Pacing may relate to helping people cope and adapt to their illness rather than contributing to a significant improvement in functional status. Learning coping strategies can help make courses more appropriate to needs even if they do not lead to immediate or even longer term improvement in symptoms. Importantly, it can prevent symptoms from becoming worse.

Pacing can be just as applicable to someone who is severely affected, as to someone who is mildly or moderately affected, although additional measures need to be taken to ensure that a person who is severely affected has equal access to services.

As with CBT, there must be better training for practitioners who are to deliver such management courses. Proposed increases in activity, both mental and physical, must be gradual, flexible and individually tailored to a patient’s ability and circumstance and not progressively increased regardless of how the patient is responding and therapists must be taught to recognise that.

All patients should have access to suitable courses, follow-up courses and/or consultations as and when required.




In reply to
[QUOTE="There was no suggestion that the way forward is to simply encourage people with ME/CFS to increase the amount of exercise they do[/QUOTE]

The extract we were given was:
BALANCING ACTIVITY AND REST
Following on from the muscle research referred to by Dr Bansal, that muscle activity is involved in the production of both endorphins (which reduce pain) and BDNF (which helps with nervous system repair), we clearly need more research into finding the ways that people with ME/CFS can carry out some form of very flexible and gradually increasing physical activity that is going to harness the benefits of physical activity but is not going to induce post-exertional malaise/symptom exacerbations at the same time


If that did not mean we need to do research to find ways to help people to do more but actually meant we need to do research to find therapies so that people can do more and reap the benefit of exercise then i apologise but that wasnt clear.

Otherwise i don't see how PEM can be conquered.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
I am fine with snippy, @worldbackwards . :)

But I disagree with you. I have had TWO world-class clinicians who have advised me to constantly push the envelope out, very gradually, but ever pushing further. Neither mentioned PEM. No talk of consequences should I go too far.

I believe we need to let the patient decide if he or she wants to run that risk. Clinicians shouldn't automatically default to advising an expanding exercise regime just because they have been taught that exercise benefits everybody. That is dogma broad-brushing AND force-fitting into the ME mold.

There is a very real risk/benefit ratio at play for us, but when I hear exercise pronouncements I get the sense that ratio is being filtered out. I think it's time that doctors stop paying lip service to the notion of PEM. For many of us, PEM is a consequence. We have no choice but to factor it into virtually everything we undertake. It has become an unwanted integrated part of our lives. We have to embrace that hard reality; perhaps doctors should as well.

IMO.
 

Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
And according to progress, making gradual and flexible increases
At the very least, this needs to be qualified or asterisked.
I believe we need to let the patient decide if he or she wants to run that risk. Clinicians shouldn't automatically default to advising an expanding exercise regime just because they have been taught that exercise benefits everybody. That is dogma broad-brushing AND force-fitting into the ME mold.
Based on what you've said - which I don't think many people would disagree with - I'm struggling to see why you found Charles's post objectionable:

Our position at the MEA on activity/energy management is very clear:

In our current state of knowledge we recommend pacing - whereby people live within their limiatations when it comes to physical and mental activities - because this is the form of activity/energy management that the majority of people in our 'patient evidence' surveys report as being safe and helpful

In practice, pacing means finding an acceptable baseline of activity, carrying out physical and mental tasks according to stage, severity and variability of the illness, and factoring in periods of rest and relaxation in between

And according to progress, making gradual and flexible increases (or decreases) in both physical and mental activity

MEA recommendations re GET and Pacing:

.................We conclude that GET should be withdrawn with immediate effect as a primary intervention for everyone with ME/CFS.............

...................Pacing can be just as applicable to someone who is severely affected, as to someone who is mildly or moderately affected, although additional measures need to be taken to ensure that a person who is severely affected has equal access to services.

As with CBT, there must be better training for practitioners who are to deliver such management courses. Proposed increases in activity, both mental and physical, must be gradual, flexible and individually tailored to a patient’s ability and circumstance and not progressively increased regardless of how the patient is responding and therapists must be taught to recognise that.....................
There's nothing in what he wrote that suggests activity must inevitably be increased. Quite the opposite. I don't understand why you would selectively quote someone to make it seem like they are saying something contrary to what they are in reality saying, especially when you seem to agree with them!!!
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Moving in a different direction, Amolak provided an interesting update on the situation here in the UK regarding plans to carry out a clinical trial of rituximab:

6a00d8357f3f2969e2015392a0e1bb970b-pi



RITUXIMAB
During the Question and Answer session Dr Bansal provided a comprehensive update on the current situation regarding the proposal to carry out a clinical trial of rituximab here in the UK to see if this could replicate the benefits that have been reported from the Norwegian trial.

However, feedback relating to people in the UK who have been treated with rituximab in America, as well as US citizens who have been treated with rituximab, has been nowhere near as positive as the results that have been reported from Norway. Consequently, questions are now being asked as to how a UK trial could/should proceed and whether this is the right time to commence a UK trial.

Dr Bansal noted that it is possible that the failure of these people to respond to rituximab could be explained by different trigger factors being involved in the Norwegian population, and/or that there is something different about the patient selection process in Norway.

These concerns and uncertainties about the UK trial are due to be discussed with US colleagues shortly.

Dr Shepherd pointed out that the MEA Ramsay Research Fund still has around £60,000 of ring-fenced money to help fund a UK clinical trial of rituximab – if a suitable protocol can be developed by the group concerned (which includes Dr Bansal) and there is a definite intention to move forward with a clinical trial, and a formal application is received.

However, if a UK trial of rituximab is not going to take place, or it is going to be delayed until the results from the phase 3 clinical trial in Norway are published, the MEA Ramsay Research Fund will have to reconsider our position. This is because we have other requests for funding, including a commitment to keep the ME Biobank going for the next two years (at a cost of around £40,000 per year), which will need to be taken into consideration.

Most recent MEA statement on Rituximab:
www.meassociation.org.uk/2015/09/our-60000-rituximab-fund-is-still-available-for-a-clinical-trial-12-september-2015/
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
I didn't. I don't do disingenuous, @Scarecrow .

It's simple. I don't believe clinicians - when dealing with ME/CFS patients - should recommend an open-ended increasing regimen of exercise. Any advice to exercise should be issued with a caveat, clearly stated. Any exercise therapy recommendation that does not expressly incorporate the possibility of PEM as a result of said exercise, should be avoided.

Period.

Ambiguity is the patients' enemy.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
I didn't. I don't do disingenuous, @Scarecrow .

It's simple. I don't believe clinicians - when dealing with ME/CFS patients - should recommend an open-ended increasing regimen of exercise. Any advice to exercise should be issued with a caveat, clearly stated. Any exercise therapy recommendation that does not expressly incorporate the possibility of PEM as a result of said exercise, should be avoided.

Period.

Ambiguity is the patients' enemy.

Just to be absolutely clear:

I was not recommending an 'open-ended increasing regimen of exercise' - this is not the basis of Pacing

Neither was Dr Bansal advocating an 'open ended increasing regimen of exercise' at the meeting on Saturday
 

Wolfiness

Activity Level 0
Messages
482
Location
UK
I find that when PEM is exacerbated by stress, it is, occasionally, less "real" (yes) than PEM caused by exertion alone. By this I mean symptoms which, due to stress, are even more disproportionate to activity than regular PEM: they are subjectively indistinguishable from exacerbations which you could cause by exertion alone, but if you resist/push them (which I generally do with all PEM, against my better judgement, so I have a lot of experience of this), they sometimes resolve or at least don't get worse. (This does happen sometimes with symptoms caused by exertion alone, too, but less often, and usually as a result of subsequent wired/adrenaliney type absorption in an activity such as playing Civilisation 2 when I am supposed to be resting.) Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

I've never heard anybody else mention a distinction between real and illusory 'bully' symptoms. I would never dream of saying it to a doctor I didn't trust, and I would agree that being cavalier with my condition makes it worse in the long term, even when I think I've got away with it. But this tendency of symptoms to sometimes resolve unexpectedly in certain circumstances is one of the reasons I am so bad at resting, because they seem to be hints that the disease is at least in part a very very very convincing psychoneuroimmunological bluff. But I would love to be proven wrong on that.
 
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BurnA

Senior Member
Messages
2,087
However, feedback relating to people in the UK who have been treated with rituximab in America, as well as US citizens who have been treated with rituximab, has been nowhere near as positive as the results that have been reported from Norway. Consequently, questions are now being asked as to how a UK trial could/should proceed and whether this is the right time to commence a UK trial.

Thanks again for the update.

Are there any numbers of patients you can provide to be a bit more specific.
I thought the original plan was always to try to find potential responders prior to the trial taking place, do you know if this work is continuing ? I would have thought this is more important at this stage.


These concerns and uncertainties about the UK trial are due to be discussed with US colleagues shortly.

In terms of US colleagues - can you elaborate ? In what terms would RTX be discussed ? I believe the OMI are the only ones in US who use RTX and it was reported here on PR that their response rate was similar to Norway.
 

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
I find that when PEM is exacerbated by stress, it is, occasionally, less "real" (yes) than PEM caused by exertion alone. By this I mean symptoms which, due to stress, are even more disproportionate to activity than regular PEM: they feel indistinguishable from exacerbations caused by unstressed exertion, but if you resist/push them (which I generally do with all PEM, against my better judgement, so I have a lot of experience of this), they sometimes resolve or at least don't get worse. This does happens sometimes with symptoms caused by exertion alone, too, but less often, and usually as a result of subsequent wired/adrenaliney type absorption in an activity such as playing Civilisation 2 when I am supposed to be resting.

I've never heard anybody else mention a division between real and illusory 'bully' symptoms. I would never dream of saying it to a doctor I didn't trust, and I would agree that being cavalier with my condition makes it worse in the long term, even when I think I've got away with it. But does anyone know what I'm talking about? This tendency of symptoms to sometimes resolve unexpectedly is one of the reasons I am so bad at resting, because they seem to be hints that the disease is a very very very convincing psychoneuroimmunological bluff. But I would love to be proven wrong on that.


To me this brings up an important issue--although from Wolfita's statement I may be coming at it tangentially--This disease is not a steady state illness.
I have been sick a very long time in various degrees. It would seem the body is busy trying to adapt and find normal. Along the way, symptoms not only fluctuate--they come and go and don't come back.

We are still so much in the dark here. There is so much heterogeneity. And the lag time between doing an activity mental or physical and the consequences not of PEM but of long term decline of function are rather large. It's hard to understand this illness as the afflicted--I can only imagine that it is doubly hard to truly grasp the nuance of this disease for those looking on when not a daily carer of a patient.

I find there is still too much of an emphasis on doing as much as is possible--we all are trying the best we can--I find I need a holiday from trying periodically--it's tough enough just being. Even Pacing requires effort/energy/the ability to assess.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Thanks again for the update.

Are there any numbers of patients you can provide to be a bit more specific.
I thought the original plan was always to try to find potential responders prior to the trial taking place, do you know if this work is continuing ? I would have thought this is more important at this stage.




In terms of US colleagues - can you elaborate ? In what terms would RTX be discussed ? I believe the OMI are the only ones in US who use RTX and it was reported here on PR that their response rate was similar to Norway.

I am only aware of anecdotal cases outside Norway where there has not been a response to rituximab and it would, of course, be interesting to know about instances where there has been a positive response

Dr Bansal did not quote any numbers and we were left with the impression that, quite sensibly, the when, where and how of a UK trial is the subject of on-going discussion

I did not get the impression that he felt that there were any robust clinical or biolological markers that could (in the present state of knowledge) separate people who were more likely to respond to rituximab and those who were less likely to respond

Rather concerning anecdotal reports from elsewhere:

(1) The Open Medicine Clinic is providing Rituxan for patients all over the world. I just finished my treatment with very little/no response. Very disappointing, but I felt I had to give it a try. It is very expensive, but there is a pretty good program to help with medication cost if your income is at a certain level and you can prove your insurance won't cover it. Even with the medicine free, the visit is $1500 to $2000 each (x6) plus hundreds of dollars of blood tests. I know there are certain infections they test for before you can go through it, I don't know if Lyme is one of them.


(2) swollen throat


Not Sore. swollen. Maybe swollen bfore rtxn but much worse after. , it's been 8 months on rtxn and over two months since last infusion.

Causing (worse) apnea. Had a home sleep study and apnea is significant.

Anyone else? Any ideas?

gargle with salt water helps the swollen throat a bit.

This seems to help as well:

http://www.1cascade.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=4333

Will try this next:

http://www.1cascade.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=2726

"Red root is a lymphatic stimulant useful in tonsilitis, sore throats, swollen lymph nodes and fluid-filled cysts. "

Any problems with these? If echinacea stimulates immune sys, bad idea aftr rtxn?


bad sleep

6/12
Pre-rituxan I used to usually sleep through the night, at least the majority of the time, even if not the same quality of sleep as I got pre-CFS. I haven't slept through the night once in the 5.5 months since RituxanIt's getting to be a pretty bad situation. I wake up a lot, and often can't get back to sleep after only 4 hours. I'm really sleepy during the day. When I don't actually wake up, I almost always toss and turn and sort of "half wake up" all the time.

D Ribose didn't used to affect my sleep, but since Rituxan, if I take it during the day (last dose way before bed time) or even in AM only, I lay in bed in a kind of half sleep state where I can't get all the way to sleep.

I had mild sleep apnea before Rituxan, and tha'ts gotten worse. But I think there is something more going on here as well given the "half sleep" (worsened by sugar).

There was a change immediately after Rituxan.

9/12
(update- been 8 mnths and slp a bit better BC of no sugar/carbs for 6hrs bfr bed). But still nt good. Apnea worse.

Curious if anyone else has noticed this?

CFS also wrse

I can't talk. Can't type/text enough to communicate. Haven't had a conversation with someone in 8 months...
 
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Wolfiness

Activity Level 0
Messages
482
Location
UK
To me this brings up an important issue--although from Wolfita's statement I may be coming at it tangentially--This disease is not a steady state illness.
I have been sick a very long time in various degrees. It would seem the body is busy trying to adapt and find normal. Along the way, symptoms not only fluctuate--they come and go and don't come back.

We are still so much in the dark here. There is so much heterogeneity. And the lag time between doing an activity mental or physical and the consequences not of PEM but of long term decline of function are rather large. It's hard to understand this illness as the afflicted--I can only imagine that it is doubly hard to truly grasp the nuance of this disease for those looking on when not a daily carer of a patient.

I find there is still too much of an emphasis on doing as much as is possible--we all are trying the best we can--I find I need a holiday from trying periodically--it's tough enough just being. Even Pacing requires effort/energy/the ability to assess.

Yes - a lot of people talk about 'fluctuations' but I don't know if they just mean a) having PEM vs having recovered from PEM, or b) spontaneously better days, or c) spontaneously worse days, or what. I occasionally get days, usually in summer, when my usual non-PEM limits (and my usual constipation actually...) spontaneously improve quite a lot, but I'm also a bit hypomanic on those days. In fact all my improvements have included hypomania somewhere, so it's not normal good health, it's just a different kind of weird. And I'm not bipolar - my affect is usually normal - and I am very severely ill, at 100 on the MEA scale. So my brain has a lot of answering to do. :)
 
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