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ME/CFS in the Era of the Human Microbiome: Persistent Pathogens Drive Chronic Symptoms...

M Paine

Senior Member
Messages
341
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
This is why we need randomised clinical trials and better biomarkers. It's a leap of faith to expect this protocol to work. Anecdotal evidence isn't enough.

I am however interested in the radio frequency radiation sickness that's mentioned on their site. Legit, I'm going to make a little tinfoil hat right now! (Hard to take a researcher seriously with that nonsense on their site)
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
There are still zero alternatives. Well there is one: wait a decade or so in a hope that symptoms will eventually come to a resolution ... or decline even further to a totally disabled state.

years ago the Marshall protocol was one of the in things to think about trying and many did try it. Some got worst. There is no easy answer for ME/cfs and if you think there is, you are likely to find yourself let down. If there was an effective way to treat this which worked for most of us, we would all be doing it!
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Attached is my blood test before and 3 months later after staying on the protocol. Only sick gets this kind of shift of immune cells on Olmesartan - for healthy ones it is identified as placebo. I've showed it to an immunologist and he told that they see this king of changes in blood work after commencing their own immune stimulation protocols on a patients with various deceases.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15291377
In the dose-finding study, 792 patients were randomized to olmesartan (2.5-80 mg) or placebo once daily…. The results of the clinical studies in >3000 patients receiving olmesartan showed that the frequency and profile of adverse events with olmesartan were generally similar to those with placebo; the frequency of adverse events was not dose related. Olmesartan, with or without hydrochlorothiazide, was well tolerated over two years of treatment.


umm
but that study when I clicked the link for it I found
"
OBJECTIVE:
This article reviews the results of some key studies that assessed the efficacy and tolerability of olmesartan in patients with hypertension."

That study you quoted though comparing its safety in hypertension to a placebo group so I dont know how that was relevant a study to us.. as it is not comparing how well it is tolerated for ME/CFS patients (besides there is far more to the Marshal Protocol then just taking that too). Many ME/CFS patients are highly sensitive to drugs, more so then the normal population. Many of us do get bad reactions from most drugs hence messing about with such things is more risk to us.
 

uglevod

Senior Member
Messages
220
This article reviews the results of some key studies that assessed the efficacy and tolerability of olmesartan in patients with hypertension."

There are some studies using high doses of ARB(Olmesartan is an ARB-class drug) against kidney disease(i.e. not against hypertension).

In the paper: http://www.marcweinbergmd.com/highdosearbsafety.pdf
the ARB dose was increased(up to 5x) despite the corresponding creatinine rise in the successful effort to reduce proteinuria and raised creatinine was not a reason to stop increasing ARB dose up to 5x the maximum. This is unique, since normally creatinine levels are associated with proteinuria and with ARB the research shows a negative correlation(not positive).

This is a followup of the following study: http://goo.gl/Tw2v4F
By the same researchers(Adam J. Weinberg & Marc S. Weinberg)

Patients took a ton of ARB(including Olm.)/day for years and no changes in blood work except for creatinine(and sometimes potassium) was reported.

There is no study showing severe anemia as a result of taking any ARB, while my hemoglobin on Olmesartan at times can drop to 80(with a corresponding rise in WBC, so must be a result of IL-6/hepcidin spikes) if I'm not careful and expose myself to the sun(not wearing glasses, etc).

BTW, I've also had a rise in ferritin on Olm(to about 350).

High levels of ferritin are associated with macrophage activation syndrome(MAS):
https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-185
 
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uglevod

Senior Member
Messages
220
Hard to take a researcher seriously with that nonsense on their site

Well, I'd say, that "nonsense" is a bit of a harsh word from anyone whose knowledge of Vit-D metabolism and its pathways in a human body is bounded by a words like "calcium", "depression", "deficiency". :)

This is why we need randomised clinical trials and better biomarkers.

Please, feel free to sponsor one. ;) Meanwhile, no one actually cares of our needs.

radio frequency radiation sickness that's mentioned

They did not "mention" it. There is already quite a bit of a research of Marshall in this field, including:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27412293

New pages on anti RF measures are are slowly built over here:
https://mpkb.org/home/special/emf/aboutrf
 

uglevod

Senior Member
Messages
220
years ago the Marshall protocol was one of the in things to think about trying and many did try it. Some got worst.

You are putting it as if Marshall protocol is now defunct(maybe there are even some shiny alternatives? if yes, please point me to them, since I am personally unaware of any alternative not based on immune suppression) ... but in reality it's still more or less kicking(just filtered) and some got actually cured from CFS(along with other diseases, including autoimmune ones) following by the withdrawal of Olmesartan. Those who got worst for years were originally playing a host to a huge bacteria load IMO, and were too impatient to wait for a positive result like the following case:

http://autoimmunityresearch.org/preprints/2013-Lindseth-ImmunologicResearch.pdf

Treatment failure.

We have found that nearly all CFS/ME patients who have commenced olmesartan therapy report what appears to be immunopathology. In some cases, the symptom exacerbation waxes and wanes for years before a patient notes definitive improvement. Faced with such uncertainty, some patients choose to discontinue treatment. Additionally, some patients have reported that their immunopathology is simply too strong to tolerate, and they have also stopped therapy or decided to take a break.

For example, BL is 31 year-old male who was diagnosed with CFS/ME in 2001. His main symptoms included profound fatigue, neurological hypersensitivity, sensory disturbances, cognitive de#ciency, exercise intolerance, and unrefreshing sleep. He had a positive tilt table test indicating severe postural hypotension. He reduced vitamin D and ultraviolet light exposure and started olmesartan 40mg four times daily in February 2006. He also began taking subinhibitory doses of minocycline and azithromycin. Seven months later, after a period of strong immunopathology, his symptoms became overwhelming. He decided to stop therapy. Around three months later his symptoms returned to a more manageable level. Because of a lack of other viable options, he and his physician decided he should resume therapy after a three-year break. He started treatment again in November 2010. During this second attempt he used a monotherapy of olmesartan 40 mg 4-6 times daily, with no antibiotics. His immunopathology proved to be more tolerable. He continues to experience fairly strong immunopathology to this day. None of his symptoms have improved perceptibly. Some of his neurological symptoms are worse than they were pre-treatment.

BL has communicated with other patients who have improved, even after long periods of limited or no apparent response. He and his physician have chosen for him to remain on the therapy, despite discomfort, because he has exhausted other therapeutic options and there remains an expectation he may need more time before noting improvement.
 

Murph

:)
Messages
1,799
Treatment failure.

We have found that nearly all CFS/ME patients who have commenced olmesartan therapy report what appears to be immunopathology. In some cases, the symptom exacerbation waxes and wanes for years before a patient notes definitive improvement. Faced with such uncertainty, some patients choose to discontinue treatment.

Reminds me of a certain play by Samuel Beckett.
 

uglevod

Senior Member
Messages
220
I'am certainly not on the road to expiration, but felt like Dead and was effectively disabled(1..2 vertical hours/day) the first year on Olm. But my CFS symptoms were relatively manageable before Olm, just with ton of rest in horizontal position(luckily my work could be done with my laptop).

I can imagine what a nightmare Olm is for those already disabled/highly symptomatic. Actually antibiotics were removed out of the protocol to make it somewhat more manageable, symptom-wise.
 

M Paine

Senior Member
Messages
341
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Well, I'd say, that "nonsense" is a bit of a harsh word...

Well, of all the descriptions that come to mind when seriously talking about wrapping ones head in materials with similar properties to tinfoil to improve ones health, 'nonsense' was the most polite. No one is likely to bother attempting to replicate that bogus tinfoil hat study, but they should just to shut this down. People have enough to worry about without worrying about non ionizing radiation.
 
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sb4

Senior Member
Messages
1,659
Location
United Kingdom
People have enough to worry about without worrying about non ionizing radiation.
There is a recent discussion ongoing in another thread about this. Here I found a resource looking at peer reviewed studies on the effects of EMF. As you can see there are a whole lot showing EMF can have negative effects. I have looked at the abstracts for a dozen or so and indeed they are peer reviewed and mostly talking about non-ionizing, non thermal rediation.

As far as I'm aware, the idea that non-ionizing non thermal radiation cannot cause cancer is due to hypothesising that this kind of radiation cannot directly affect DNA; however it doesn't have to. Some studies show non thermal non ionizing EMF effecting coltage gated calcium channels causing calcium influx which can then upregulate NOS causing peroxynitrite which can then damage the cell.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
I applaud the efforts of Trevor Marshall, Amy Proal, and others in championing the theory that microorganisms are the likely cause of many chronic diseases of currently unknown etiology. The idea that pathogens may be the cause of chronic diseases is still not widely appreciated in the medical world, and this pathogen theory needs more support.



There are a lot of stories of successful recoveries from CFS(along with other diseases) on their support forum.

Are you referring to the inflammation therapy website? There are only two case reports of Marshall Protocol working for ME/CFS there. I've been looking at that website regularly for updates over the years, but there has been no increase in case reports.

Though @Art Vandelay is one person on this forum who says he improved on the Marshall Protocol.



To my knowledge no one has examined which viral subsets of ME/CFS patients the MP might work on. Prof Trevor Marshall in the past was of the opinion that ME/CFS was due to an intracellular infection of L-form bacteria, and I think discounted the idea that viruses could be a cause.

Possibly for this reason there was no testing to see which viral subset the MP might work better for (ie, ME/CFS linked to EBV, HHV-6, cytomegalovirus, coxsackievirus B or echovirus). Though it seems from this current paper that Prof Marshal may have evolved his views on the role of viruses in ME/CFS, since there is much talk of viruses in the paper.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
You are putting it as if Marshall protocol is now defunct(maybe there are even some shiny alternatives? if yes, please point me to them,

No. If there was any "shiny" treatments which help "most of us" (maybe Rituximab is still one being considered though, not many of us have tried that yet) , do you not think they would be very well known by now and we'd be flocking to the treatment by droves? Compared to the Marshall protocol popularity years ago when lots of people where trying it cause it was a "in thing" for ME/CFS for quite a time, I do say that it has become near defunct. Many people who have not have ME/CFS or years have not even heard of this being used.

He started treatment again in November 2010. During this second attempt he used a monotherapy of olmesartan 40 mg 4-6 times daily, with no antibiotics. His immunopathology proved to be more tolerable. He continues to experience fairly strong immunopathology to this day. None of his symptoms have improved perceptibly. Some of his neurological symptoms are worse than they were pre-treatment.

BL has communicated with other patients who have improved, even after long periods of limited or no apparent response. He and his physician have chosen for him to remain on the therapy, despite discomfort, because he has exhausted other therapeutic options and there remains an expectation he may need more time before noting improvement.

I wouldnt say it was a responsible thing to do to keep a patient on protocols using drug treatments when no good effect from the drug has been shown for that person.

Are you aware that for most with ME/CFS things do get a bit better anyway with time? and that there can be remissions? Dr Cheney talks about that in some of his stuff, I too had a remission for a while (several years but then I caught a virus which triggered the whole ME off again).. so even if there is improvement it is not necessarily due to that a long term drug protocol. This is why good science is used with a control group when it comes to testing the efficiency of treatments.

Are you also aware that there were people that developed Addison's Disease, which is life threatening due to the Marshal Protocol eg Steve Carroll and others. (there was also someone else who that happened in the experiemental group of a ME/CFS forum I was involved in who did the Marshal Protocol).

Their website with forum was highly moderated and posts of people doing the protocol in which people did not have not so good outcomes with it.. well those posts were removed so their stuff only showed the good experiences of people, I witnessed that going on. (I have not had anything to do with Marshal Protocol for years so I dont know if they still have a forum etc).

Also Ive heard that Dr. Marshall is not a medical doctor but has his PhD in Biomedical Engineering.

Vitamin D restriction can be dangerous as vitamin D is a very important vitamin and restricting this.. you increase your chances of cancer etc.. and vit D helps also the body with things like calicum absorption.. Marshall Protocol would weaken bones...

Also an increase in symptoms of someone doing a protocol such as this.. does not necessarily mean its a Herx reaction. Many of us will tell you can get all kinds of symptoms coming in if our bodies really disagree with drugs we are trialing. Lots of us have MCS. (chemical sensitivity).

Many of us have had to come to term with the fact that there is no magic bullet treatment currently out there when it comes to ME/CFS.

best luck with whatever you try and do for it.
 

uglevod

Senior Member
Messages
220
Are you referring to the inflammation therapy website? There are only two case reports of Marshall Protocol working for ME/CFS there. I've been looking at that website regularly for updates over the years, but there has been no increase in case reports.

There is also a forum: https://marshallprotocol.com/ with over 300000 messages over the last like 14 years featuring people stories on Olm with and without antibiotics. A lot of people recovered during the timeframe, the recovery time is typically 4..6 years for light or normal case. I believe Art posted similar time-frames for CFS/Lyme somewhere over this forum in different thread.

P.S. BTW, English is not my native language, so if I sound weird over times this can be partly the reason. :)
 
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uglevod

Senior Member
Messages
220
If there was any "shiny" treatments which help "most of us" (maybe Rituximab is still one being considered though, not many of us have tried that yet)

Rituximab is an TNF alpha inhibitor(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447167/). I'd be better disabled(from inflammation) that ever be found taking this stuff knowing the fact that the TNF alpha suppression leads to further proliferation of various infections:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17436229
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25922085

Dr Cheney talks about that in some of his stuff

Normally I don't listen to doctors since their usual route is to palliate patient symptoms and I'am on the opposite therapy. Also, I've found them to be of little practical value and additionally discovered that even their basic knowledge is pretty limited. So I value only scientists/researchers.

Also Ive heard that Dr. Marshall is not a medical doctor but has his PhD in Biomedical Engineering

That's actually a big plus for me(that he originally was not a medical doctor). :)
 
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uglevod

Senior Member
Messages
220
Also an increase in symptoms of someone doing a protocol such as this.. does not necessarily mean its a Herx reaction.

Its a herx .. basically same herx people experience on antibiotics when treating their Lyme(treating Lyme with abx can bring ton of herx, especially if level of D25 is low), just more powerful and I hope, more productive...
 

uglevod

Senior Member
Messages
220
you increase your chances of cancer etc.. and vit D helps also the body with things like calicum absorption.. Marshall Protocol would weaken bones...

Have a look at the latest presentation:

There is some interesting statistics regarding rate for cancers and bone weakening.

Besides Olmesartan as ARB can be cancer-protective by itself:

Angiotensin II receptor blockers induce autophagy in prostate cancer cells.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28529582
Angiotensin II receptor blockers (ARBs) are anti-hypertensive drugs that competitively inhibit the binding of angiotensin II to its receptor, resulting in blood vessel dilation and the reduction of blood pressure. These antagonists are also known as sartans, and are a group of pharmaceuticals that possess tetrazole or imidazole groups. In the present study, the anticancer and antimetastatic effects of the ARBs fimasartan, losartan, eprosartan and valsartan on the human prostate cancer PC-3, DU-145 and LNCap-LN3 cell lines were investigated in vitro. The proliferation of the prostate cancer cells was inhibited following treatment with 100 µM ARB. In particular, treatment with fimasartan resulted in marked anti-proliferative activity compared with the other ARBs. With respect to the molecular mechanism of the growth inhibition exhibited by the ARBs, 3-methyladenin (3-MA), an autophagy inhibitor, was revealed to increase the survival rate of PC-3 cells when cell death inhibitors were pretreated with fimasartan. In addition, the ARBs induced autophagy with increased expression levels of autophagy protein (Atg) 5-12, Atg 16-like-1, beclin-1 and microtubule-associated protein 1A/1B-light chain 3 (LC3). Notably, the enhanced expression of LC3-II (a 6.7-fold increase at 72 h) was observed in PC3 cells treated with fimasartan. This was supported by the observation of the time-dependent accumulation of LC3-positive foci in PC-3. In addition, a migration assay indicated that the ARBs induced anti-metastatic effects in PC-3 and DU-145 cells. The aforementioned results suggest that ARBs may induce autophagy-associated cell death and anti-metastatic activity in prostate cancer cells. Thus, ARBs may be a potential medication for patients with prostate cancer and hypertension.

Antihypertensive drug-candesartan attenuates TRAIL resistance in human lung cancer via AMPK-mediated inhibition of autophagy flux.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29694835
Angiotensin II type 1 receptor blockers (ARBs) are widely used as antihypertensive drugs. Candesartan is an ARB that has also been known for its anticancer effects but the exact molecular mechanism is remaining elusive. In this research, we showed for the first time that candesartan treatment significantly sensitized human lung adenocarcinoma cells to Tumor necrosis factor-related apoptosis-inducing ligand (TRAIL)-mediated apoptosis by targeting TRAIL-DR5. TRAIL selectively kills cancer cells by binding to death receptors on the cell membrane, beyond the levels causing minimal toxicity in normal cells. However, some non-small-cell lung carcinoma (NSCLC) patients are resistant to TRAIL treatment in clinical trials due to inactivation of the death receptors during cytoprotective autophagy. The molecular mechanisms underlying candesartan-induced TRAIL-mediated apoptosis involved the downstream of AMPK phosphorylation resulting inhibition of autophagy flux, recruitment of death receptor 5 (DR5) and activation of apoptotic caspase cascade. Candesartan treatment also inhibits the expression of anti-apoptotic protein c-FLIP. Furthermore, blocking DR5 signaling using DR5 siRNA negatively regulated the apoptotic pathway and also induced autophagy flux, demonstrating the cytoprotective role of autophagy responsible for treatment resistance. This suggests that candesartan can be used to sensitize tumors to TRAIL treatment and may represent a useful strategy for human adenocarcinoma patients to overcome TRAIL resistance. Candesartan in combination with TRAIL also could be a novel therapeutic treatment for patients presenting both conditions of hypertension and lung cancer.

Chemopreventive effects of angiotensin II receptor type 2 agonist on prostate carcinogenesis by the down-regulation of the androgen receptor.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29568400
We recently reported that angiotensin II receptor blockers (ARBs) have chemopreventive and chemotherapeutic potential against prostate cancer via the reduction of androgen receptor (AR) expression. In this study, we investigated the effects of the angiotensin II receptor type 2 (AT2R) agonist Compound 21 (C21), which is expected to play similar roles to an ARB, on prostate carcinogenesis using the transgenic rat for adenocarcinoma of prostate (TRAP) model previously established in our laboratory. In vitro analyses of the cell growth, Western blotting and reporter gene assays were performed using LNCaP cells. TRAP rats at 6 weeks of age were randomly divided into 3 groups of 12 animals each and treated with C21 at 1 or 2 mg/kg/day in drinking water for 12 weeks. C21 reduced the proliferation activity of prostate cancer cells and down-regulated the PSA promoter activity and the AR protein expression. We discovered that C21 inhibited the progression of prostate carcinogenesis in TRAP rats and decreased the incidence of adenocarcinoma in the lateral prostate. A significant increase in the apoptotic index with activation of caspase 3 and 7 were observed by immunohistochemistry and Western blotting analyses. C21 also down-regulated the expression of AR significantly in TRAP rat prostate. C21 decreased the expression of AR and reduced the proliferation activity effectively in prostate cancer cells and TRAP rat prostate. These findings suggest that AT2R agonist may be a candidate novel chemopreventive agent against human prostate cancer.

Involvement of local renin-angiotensin system in immunosuppression of tumor microenvironment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29034589
To improve current cancer immunotherapies, strategies to modulate various immunosuppressive cells including myeloid derived suppressor cells (MDSC) which were shown to be negative factors in immune-checkpoint blockade therapy, need to be developed. In the present study, we evaluated the role of the local renin-angiotensin system (RAS) in the tumor immune-microenvironment using murine models bearing tumor cell lines in which RAS was not involved in their proliferation and angiogenetic ability. Giving angiotensin II receptor blockers (ARB) to C57BL/6 mice bearing murine colon cancer cell line MC38 resulted in significant enhancement of tumor antigen gp70 specific T cells. ARB administration did not change the numbers of CD11b+ myeloid cells in tumors, but significantly reduced their T-cell inhibitory ability along with decreased production of various immunosuppressive factors including interleukin (IL)-6, IL-10, vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), and arginase by CD11b+ cells in tumors. ARB also decreased expression of immunosuppressive factors such as chemokine ligand 12 and nitric oxide synthase 2 in cancer-associated fibroblasts (CAF). Last, combination of ARB and anti-programmed death-ligand 1 (PD-L1) antibodies resulted in significant augmentation of anti-tumor effects in a CD8+ T cell-dependent way. These results showed that RAS is involved in the generation of an immunosuppressive tumor microenvironment caused by myeloid cells and fibroblasts, other than the previously shown proliferative and angiogenetic properties of cancer cells and macrophages, and that ARB can transform the immunosuppressive properties of MDSC and CAF and could be used in combination with PD-1/PD-L1 immune-checkpoint blockade therapy.

The Angiotensin II Type 1 Receptor Antagonist Losartan Affects NHE1-Dependent Melanoma Cell Behavior.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29558744
...
CONCLUSION:
Losartan inhibits NHE1 activity and the migration of human melanoma cells. At the same time, losartan promotes MV3 cell adhesion and invasion. The therapeutic use of AT1 antagonists (sartans) in hypertensive cancer patients should therefore be given critical consideration.

The angiotensin receptor blocker, Losartan, inhibits mammary tumor development and progression to invasive carcinoma.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28416734

The renin-angiotensin system blockers as adjunctive therapy for cancer: a meta-analysis of survival outcome.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28387887
...
CONCLUSIONS:
Our results suggest that RASBs combined with chemotherapeutic agents may improve outcomes in multiple types' cancer patients. More research and well-designed, rigorous, large clinical trials are required to address these issues.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
A lot of people recovered during the timeframe, the recovery time is typically 4..6 years for light or normal case.

Is there any summary of the success rate?

For example, when Dr Chia uses tenofovir to treat ME/CFS, he notes that less than 1 out of 3 patients respond (but when they do respond, the results are significant. See these posts: 1 2 Then if you take something like low-dose naltrexone, maybe only 10% or 20% of patients benefit from that, but when they do benefit, again the results are significant. Ref: 1.

It's always useful to have some details of the success rate like these.


Have more severe ME/CFS patients tried the Marshall Protocol to your knowledge? Since the MP can worsen symptoms, it may unbearable for severe patients (by severe, I mean severe on the ME/CFS scale of: mild, moderate and severe).



Its a herx .. basically same herx people experience on antibiotics when treating their Lyme(treating Lyme with abx can bring ton of herx, especially if level of D25 is low), just more powerful and I hope, more productive...

The so-called immunopathology of the Marshall Protocol might be similar to Herxheimer reaction, but by definition Herx is caused by the release of bacterial endotoxins like LPS when bacteria are killed by antibiotics, etc. Endotoxins come from the cell wall of bacteria, but L-form bacteria which live inside cells do not have a cell wall when inside the cell (L-forms discard their cell walls in order to live inside cells).

Alternatively the immunopathology might be similar to the immune reconstitution inflammatory syndrome.



Marshall Protocol would weaken bones...

I would not have thought that would be the case. Benicar (olmesartan), the drug used in the MP, is a potent activator of the vitamin D receptor (VDR). The reason that vitamin D is avoided in the MP is paradoxically to allow for more VDR activation, via the effects of Benicar on the VDR (though I don't understand the precise mechanics).

In Prof Marhsall's original theory, intracellular L-form bacteria are blocking the VDR as an immune evasion strategy; they do this because the VDR is the ON switch for a part of the intracellular immune system. So this is how these bacteria are thought to survive inside the cell, by blocking the VDR, and thus turning of some of the intracellular immune response. The idea of the MP is to switch on this de-activated VDR (by means of Benicar) so that this part of intracellular immune system is once again activated, and can then kill the intracellular bacteria.

However, the intracellular immune system activated by the VDR involves the release of antimicrobial peptides cathelicidin (LL-37) and beta-defensin, and I believe these peptides are better at fighting intracellular L-form bacteria than they are intracellular viruses. Thus the Marshall Protocol may work better for diseases like sarcoidosis which are linked to L-form bacteria, than for virus-associated ME/CFS.

Though some cases of ME/CFS are linked to or involve Chlamydia pneumoniae, which is an intracellular bacterium (an obligate intracellular pathogen rather than an L-form). So it may be that the MP works better for those cases where Chlamydia pneumoniae is involved.
 
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S-VV

Senior Member
Messages
310
Excellent summary hip!

I tried olmertasan 3x20 a day but stopped due to kidney pain. Apart from activating the VDR, olmertasan is an Angiotensin receptor blocker, so that may explain it.

If I'm not mistaken, Marshall avoids vit OH 25-D because it has enough affinity for the VDR to produce binding, but not enough to activate it's downstream effects.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
If I'm not mistaken, Marshall avoids vit OH 25-D because it has enough affinity for the VDR to produce binding, but not enough to activate it's downstream effects.

Yes, I think that's along the rights lines. Here are some snippets that a few years ago I copied down from the various Marshall Protocol websites:
The 1,25-D form of vitamin D is an agonist to the vitamin D receptor (VDR): meaning it will bind to the VDR site and activate the VDR mechanisms (which include the innate, intracellular immune response).

The 25-D form of vitamin D is an antagonist to the vitamin D receptor (VDR). An will occupy the VDR site, but not activate the VDR. In this way, it tends to prevent 1,25-D from activating the VDR, since this 1,25-D form will not be able to dock with the VDR receptor.
The problem with 25-vitamin D is that it can also physically bind to the VDR and when that happens the process stops. It is called an antagonist because it cannot activate the VDR like the agonist 1,25-D, so none of the hundreds of genes get transcribed into mRNA. High concentrations of 25-D from supplementing can displace 1,25-D stopping the process.

in addition, the way the bacteria stop the VDR from transcription is to produce ever-increasing concentrations of an antagonist, such as Capnine, which ultimately stop 1,25-D from activating the VDR. In this way the bacteria stop the VDR from transcribing most of the antimicrobial peptides.



Vitamin D Synonyms:

Calcitriol = 1,25-D = 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol = 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 = agonist to VDR
Calcifediol = 25-D = 25-hydroxycholecalciferol = 25-hydroxyvitamin D = antagonist to VDR


When you take a vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) supplement, or get vitamin D3 from UV exposure on the skin, this D3 gets converted in the liver to 25-D, the VDR antagonist. The 25-D is then converted in the kidneys into 1,25-D, the VDR agonist and active form of vitamin D.
 
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uglevod

Senior Member
Messages
220
Is there any summary of the success rate?

Someone collected all reports from the forum and for CFS the anecdotal success rate was about 60%. For me its a very high figure so I'am taking my chance. :)

I tried olmertasan 3x20 a day but stopped due to kidney pain.

From my limited understanding very small dose of Olm sometimes(not always though) is capable to activate the immune system - but almost never enough for palliation. I personally communicate with one person with Lyme who got intolerable, full body inflammation just from taking 10mg Olm 4 times per day. For corresponding palliation(in context of inflammation), according to Marshall the optimal overall dose per day is 160..240mg.

Also, last years Marshall talks a lot about EMF radiation and how it has a potential to considerably slow down the recovery process - a couple of videos on this topic are over here: https://www.youtube.com/user/DrTrevorMarshall/videos