The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Lithium orotate, MTRR, B12 and reactions both negative (hairloss) and positive

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by crzyakta, Sep 13, 2016.

  1. crzyakta

    crzyakta

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    Hi everyone, I wanted to write this to ask if anyone can help me figure out what could be going on with my recent experiment with Lithium Orotate (LO). First a bit of background:

    • I have a homozygous mutation at MTRR A66G (GG, which affects B12 I believe) and for VDR Taq (AA)
    • I have a heterozygous mutation at COMT V158M (AG), COMT H26H (CT), CBS C699T (AG), CBS A360A (AG), and MTR A2756G (AG)
    • No MTHFR mutations (at least for those tested in 23andme)

    So back in April, I performed a hair mineral analysis and everything essential came within range, all toxic heavy metals were low and in the safe range. Magnesium and Calcium here very high due to my supplementation of their citrate forms, however Lithium was not even registering, it was below .004 which I would assume means there is almost none detected.

    My symptoms are as follows: Appear to have had high histamine my entire life, allergies, asthma (as a youth, I am 33 now), hives. Had acne as a teenager which persisted well into my twenties, I have to eat a clean, low histamine diet with stress control to prevent break outs. I continue to have bouts of anxiety with depression during emotional times. I usually rebound out of depressive episodes within a few days. Anxiety subsides a few hours after the trigger event, but have learned to mostly control it and function successfully in life.

    However, it is still difficult at times and be a roadblock, causing racing thoughts and brain fog; this is where I thought I put the pieces together, as mentioned by Dr. Yasko, Lithium is required to transfer B12 into the cells, being that I am homozygous MTRR and heterozygous MTR I already have a B12 issue which apparently also causes me to excrete Lithium more readily. So I though by taking LO I would be addressing both.

    Once I started LO at one 120mg (5mg Li) tablet a day, I almost immediately noticed a calm come over me, I was more loving, emotionally connected, a better listener and empathizer, also as an aside my libido and ‘lasting’ power went up. Issues that normally would cause a knee-jerk reaction no longer did, I felt happier and in control. Perhaps I have a glutamate-gaba imbalance or some type of serotonin-dopamine issue, maybe even related to B12. Not exactly sure.

    Within a week, I could feel that 1 tablet was not enough to cover the whole day, I could feel when it was wearing off, and so I started at 2 a day and eventually found 3 a day to be the sweet spot. This gave me the coverage I needed. But I did notice at times, small issues could make me ‘appear’ depressed, I would slow down, not want to get out of bed and just lay there, really odd feeling. I would be able to bounce back though and be happy and in the moment without ruminating. It’s weird, the very state LO was helping me to control and stay out of, at times it seems like it would put me into it. Anyone else have this experience?

    I only experimented for about 3 weeks, 2 of which were at 3 tablets a day dose. Most alarmingly though, I had the following symptom, it appears that the LO was increasing my hair shed and have me slightly oilier skin (regarding my skin, it just feels a bit oiler and I’ve always had oily skin to begin with). I am sensitive to agents that cause or exacerbate hairloss, perhaps related to an overactive immune system / high histamine.

    There is very little I can find online for LO causing increased hair shed, especially at such a low dose. I have read of Lithium Carbonate causing Li induced acne / hairloss but that is at really large doses (250+ mg of elemental Li). I stopped all LO 2 weeks ago, but recently restarted at just ½ tablet (2.5mg elemental LI) and it appears that I am shedding more than usual already. Please see below for my supplements and thoughts:

    • I take a once daily multi (Alive – Male Ultra Potency) – Been on this for years, B12 is in the cyanocobalamin form
    • 1g Ultra pure Fish oil (Omega Rx)
    • 5000 IU Vitamin D3
    • 250mg Cal Citrate / 200mg Magnesium Citrate
    • 200mg Grapeseed Extract
    • No previous thyroid or kidney issues, male, 6’2”, 175lbs, eating healthy and organic for years now

    Last year, prior to ever trying LO, I tried methyl B12 at 5mg daily and separately adenosyl B12 at 5mg daily, both made me very irritable.

    Ok, now for my questions:

    1. Do you think LO, even at such low doses can be triggering extra hair shed?

    2. When I am only taking ½ tablet of LO, I do not really get the same benefits, it’s much less pronounced. Anxiety still can kick in, which was not the case at 2-3 tablets a day. Do you think that the ½ dose Li will build up in my system overtime and still provide the same therapeutic effects or is that not how Li works?

    3. Do you think the hair shed will stabilize while I continue to low dose LO (and perhaps taper up when it does)?

    4. Do you think the mB12 or adB12 at a low dose like 1mg may work better this time around due to the LO in my system?

    5. What could have caused the ‘depressive’ episodes while on 2-3 tabs of LO?

    I know this is long, but any help or information, anecdotal or not, is much appreciated.


    Thanks for your time
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
  2. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

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    Just off the top of my head, I think that it might be worth trying some B12. I think people usually start mB12 before adB12.

    Maybe someone else will have a more informed response.
     
  3. crzyakta

    crzyakta

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    Northeast US
    Hi Little Bluestem, thanks for your input, I have not yet tried mB12 along with LO, that was my next step. Do you think that 5mg of mB12 without LO (for an MTRR) may be causing the issues? Also, I've read that Dr. Yasko believes that once you start on Lithium, B12 that is already in your system will now be effectively used (as in, no additional supplementation is required), have you ever heard this?

    I never knew why 5mg mB12 made me very irritable, perhaps it was too high a dose along with the fact that I was so low on LO made issues worse.
     
  4. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

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    I am clueless about the genetic stuff or Dr. Yasko's theories. The B vitamins are very complex. If you are taking B12 you should also be taking at least B9/Folate - as methylfolate or folinic acid, not folic acid. It would be a good idea to also take a low dose B complex.

    Around here you will commonly hear "Start low, Go slow". 5 mg of B12 is a large dose to start. B12 is sometimes dosed in micrograms (mcg). It might work better to start with a lower dose, maybe 1 mg/1000 mcg.
     
  5. crzyakta

    crzyakta

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    Northeast US
    Thanks again for the into..mB12 is the next step. I've read from other folks on this forum that when the body receives the B12 it needs (especially for those whom have issues, e.g. potentially exacerbated by MTRR / MTR), it may kick up increase testosterone, which in my case would be a nice added bonus. However this extra testosterone may make hair loss worse.

    Though I am not taking B12 right now, just Lithium Ororate, perhaps it is allowing B12 to 'do its thing' and that is causing more testosterone in my body...I do feel like my skin is a bit oilier and my libido has improved. No acne though, just extra hair shed

    Also wanted to bump, has anyone have similar issues or read something similar? Please let me know your thoughts.

    Currently on 2.5mg Li (from 60mg LO)

    Thanks
     
  6. crzyakta

    crzyakta

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    bump, anyone? Anything noted with Lithium orotate, experiences etc?
     

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