Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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lithium experiences

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by leaves, Jul 6, 2011.

  1. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    I looked at the label you linked and it appears the enzymes mostly impact the pancreas. Still trying to understand how all this realtes but I thought the LO went into blood stream and passes the blood brain barrier easier?
     
  2. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    - everybody is different so that dosage is whatever dose it starts attacking your thyroid and depending on whatever pstd issues u need it for u might need more or less. But in general I have not heard pple take more than 20-25mg a day unless they are taking it for bipolar or schizophrenia or something but then they wud be on the Rx version and that wud be monitored by a doc.

    - that is wrong, systemic enzymes affect So much more than just the pancreas, much much more. It's all about understanding what these things really do so that you can save money and not get lied and cheated by all these pple who mark their prices up for the same exact thing just labeled differently.

    -nobody really understands why Li affects the thyroid but it does and LO can do it too
     
    roxie60 likes this.
  3. tyson oberle

    tyson oberle Senior Member

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    I do see that wonbezym's description states that it is enteric-coated but however I don't see anywhere that solgar's pancreatin is enteric-coated. So how do we know if solgar's pancreatin is indeed enteric-coated?
     
  4. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    google it and look at a pic of it on any vitamin website selling it
    but just for clarification glyceryl triacetate is the coating agent
    Again u do not need to have it coated but u shud take tums b4 enzymes that are not
     
  5. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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  6. outdamnspot

    outdamnspot Senior Member

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    I just added in Lithium Orotate 3 nights ago. It's excellent for focus, but I've been awake until 5 or 6 am all 3 nights. I did run out of Melatonin, which probably isn't helping, but does it keep anyone else up?
     
  7. tango

    tango Senior Member

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    I started LO yesterday. I had previously tried lithium aspartate which I didn't like. I've also tried ConcenTrace drops which have a small amount of lithium in them.

    I'm taking 5mg in the morning. Yesterday and today I felt like it sedated me a little so I may try taking it at night

    I need to pay attention to the thyroid issue as my body preferentially makes more RT3 and I don't want to add any more fuel to the fire!
     
  8. keenly

    keenly Senior Member

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    NATURAL Lithium is great, and very safe.
     
  9. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hi @keenly,

    I've just started finding out about lithium orotate and ordered some Swanson LO from HealthMonthly this evening. It's 5mg elemental lithium from 130mg LO. Because it's Easter, it probably won't arrive until at least Weds, if not later.

    I'm slightly concerned about potential effects on the thyroid - I don't convert much T4 to T3 so am technically hypo, despite previously producing decent levels of T4.

    I've been on supraphysiological doses of T3 since c.2005, increasing from my initial physiological 20mcg dose started in 2000 by Barry Peatfield, to currently 100mcg/d. Needless to say, my T4 and TSH are always pretty much zero because of the exogenous T3.

    I saw something earlier in this thread about thyroid hormone replacement needing systemic enzymes if cholesterol and triglycerides remain "high", because high cholesterol and triglycerides are a clear indication of hypothyroidism and if you're on T3, (or T4 for most people), those lipids should dramatically reduce.

    They did go down when I was on 20mcg, but there's been some sort of resistance issue going on since about 2005, hence my dose being increased to 100mcg dose and the continuing "high" cholesterol and trig's. (I refuse to take statins, and I don't think it's as much of an issue as the NICE guidelines insist, because they keep lowering the ref ranges so they can get more people on statins- £'s. Cynical, moi? Damn right!)

    I've been titrating Lugol's for about three weeks (the week before Mother's Day), and have successfully managed to get up to 50mg/d, which because of my breast cancer history, is about half-way to where I need my dose to be.

    The past few days, I have got to 4 or 5pm and realised I haven't taken my last 2 doses of hydrocortisone (hypoadrenal/ adrenal insufficiency). I started at 2.5mg/d with Barry in 2000, titrated up to the physiological 20mg/d dose, then the T3 was added in.

    As with the T3, my breast cancer and its hideous treatments (mastectomy, recon, chemo, radio, massive oestrogen-blocking implant injections, rapidly discontinued Tamoxifen, ditto nasty anti-osteporosis drug, ditto every different aromatase inhibitor going) forced an increase in my hydro, too. Have been not functional but stable on 80mg hydro/d until I reached 25-30mg Lugol's, when I found myself reducing hydro naturally and easily (yay!) and am now on 70mg, which is a huge reduction for me, so I'm even more keen to keep titrating up towards the 100mg of Lugol's that I want to be at - I might be able to reduce my hydro back down to normal physiological levels, which would be brilliant.


    The only downside so far with the iodine is that for the last couple of nights, since I hit 50mg, is that I'm waking up at 3 or 4am with significant anxiety.

    I'm feeling anxious and wired in the day, too, and I figure this might be the iodide giving my thyroid the tools it needs to make its own hormones again, which is obviously a good thing as long as I reduce my T3 in line with this new hyper state.


    I struggled to break my teeny tiny T3 tabs into quarters, which is what you're supposed to do if you reduce, so have settled for a 10mcg reduction (half a tab) instead of a 5mcg one. (Obviously hoping that contiuing with Lugol's will allow me to reduce my T3 further as things start to correct themselves with iodine repletion.)

    Anxiety slightly less, but still enough for me to be resorting to benzos, hence my interest in trying lithium orotate to calm things down. (I react badly to theanine and GABA, already take around a gram of mag citrate and mag malate, use Valerian periodically, plus Ashwaghanda, Rhodiola has little effect, ditto inositol, 5-HTP usually keeps the majority of anxiety and depression at bay, but not stopping this new iodine-fed anxiety.)

    I'm planning on starting at 5mg LO and increasing to x2/d if that feels like the right thing to do.

    I'm obviously hoping to continue to be able to reduce my hydro easily (I know I've done somethimg right with my supplement choices when I find I haven't needed to take the last couple of doses that day, and haven't forced a reduction. Forced reductions floor me completely, even by 2.5mg. Everything gets acutely inflamed systemically, and I'm off legs for months. Natural reductions are just that, natural, and I don't get the systemic inflammation flare.)

    As I started off saying, my concern about LO is the potential it apparently has for causing thyroid antibodies, and initiating an auto-immune problem. I don't currently have any thyroid antibodies, and never have.


    How likely do you think it is that a 5-10mg LO dose will cause problems for my thyroid? Do you think it's less likely, or more likely, given that I'm on T3? Do you think it will be ok as long as I reduce my T3 in line with hyper signs and symptoms, or does your experience and knowledge of LO indicate differently? Am I worrying about nothing?


    -I'm keen to try LO, having read dozens of reviews on iHerb and other places, different threads on here, and several sites citing articles and papers, etc, because they all talk about the reduction in anxiety and depression, a calm, clear, alert brain, better energy, and neurological protection/repair.

    What's your experience of it? Do you have any thyroid issues, either pre-existent to taking LO, or that have happened since taking it?

    I'd appreciate your input on this.



    Thanks for reading, Keenly, and I hope you're doing at least ok, if not better than ok.

    Jigsaw.
     
    Sancar likes this.
  10. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hi @keenly , did you see this?

    As a side note, the twice I've taken a 5mg cap of LO, it's given me loud tinnitus, a seriously big sensation of pressure against my eardrums, nausea to the point where I struggled to not vomit even with two anti-emetics (because nausea and vomiting are my body's self-defence forté), and shaking, feeling very weird indeed. All within 20 minutes, which is my standard toxic time-response.

    I bought three sodding bottles of the stuff, having read the research, the personal accounts and recommendations.

    Aside from the above symptoms, it also did zero for my anxiety spike, not either of the two times I took it.

    Maybe I'll be able to tolerate it later down the line. Meantime, it's been relegated to the "Supplements I Can't Take Right Now" cupboard :aghhh:

     
  11. Iritu1021

    Iritu1021 Breaking Through The Fog

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    Jigsaw,
    I know that I am late for this thread, but I've had some experience with lithium orotate. I am also on thryoid - keep switching back and forth from natural dessicated to pure T3. I had a really bad experience one time when I took both iodine and lithium. I believe I discovered at that time that they both block T3 synthesis. I recently tried it again without iodine (granted, my state is now also different than it was back then) - but I just wanted to tell you that in your case it might be the combination of iodine and lithium that made you sick. In general, high dose iodine made me worse. I have Hashimoto's and it seems to be contraindicated for people with autoimmune thyroid disease but maybe it can be counterproductive in ME/CFS patients too or at least in combo with Li. It made me feel very hypothyroid when I took it with iodine and wasn't taking supplemental T3. This time however it made me hyperthyroid instead. Before lithium, it seemed like I could never get enough T3 in me and had to dose multiple times throughout the day, and after 4 days on Li I suddenly felt hyperthyroid or some burst of norepinephrine activity so I had to stop my thyroid for now completely. Will see if I can completely stay off it or restart in a little while at a much lower dose.
     
    Wayne likes this.
  12. Iritu1021

    Iritu1021 Breaking Through The Fog

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    I went back and browsed some more on the subject of lithium and iodine:

    In Canada, there is an overabundance of nutritional iodine (Dussault, 1993); Italy is an iodine-deficient country. As in the general population (Laurberg et al, 1998), in patients treated with lithium, ambient iodine seems to play a major role in the manifestation of thyroid failure. Conversely, iodine deficiency may act as a protective factor under lithium therapy.

    In other words, just as I stated previously, high dose iodine and lithium are a bad combination.
     
  13. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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    @Iritu1021, what dose in considered high-dose iodine? I take 12.5 MG every day and know some people take much more. I was considering 5 MG of lithium orotate, but will look into its interaction with iodine. I'm glad I found your post.
     
  14. Iritu1021

    Iritu1021 Breaking Through The Fog

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    @perchance dreamer, 12.5 mg is definitely a high dose. Personally, I would say that everything above RDA (200 mcg) is a high dose, and anything above 1mg is a very high dose.
    Are you also taking thyroid hormone? What are your TSH and T3 levels?
     
  15. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    They certainly weren’t a good combo for me, as previously reported after only two occasions of taking one LO concurrent with high dose Lugol’s!
     
  16. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    It really depends on what you’re trying to treat or correct or replace.

    The “normal” high dose for the majority of breast cancer pts is 100mg/d, ditto for treating fibrocystic breast dissease.

    One of “the iodine doctors” was on T4, took 50mg/d for a year in order to get off his thyroid meds (I don’t know what dose of T4 he was on), and he reports in interviews that he still takes 50mg a day, and will do for the rest of his life. That’s Dr George Flechas.

    If you’re using Lugol’s, 50mg is around x8 drops of 5%, x6 drops of 7%, or about x3 drops of 15%, which is the strongest you can make. Obviously, you add to a full glass of water, because it is caustic unless well-diluted. My dropper seems slightly larger than the accepted 1/22 of a ml (I haven’t looked at these dropper figures for a while, so I can’t guarantee I’ve quoted that 1/22 ml capacity accurately), and I calculated one of MY droppers to provide 22-5mg per drop of the 15% Lugol’s I made myself.

    I currently alternate between 3 drops/d and 4 drops/d. X4 of my drops of my 15% equals 90mg combined iodine and iodide. One drop comprises 7.5mg I₂, and 15mg Ki.

    The LO induced tinnitus is still there, though mostly fainter. I haven’t touched the LO since it caused the tinnitus, and made me feel so ill.
     
  17. TJ_in_UT

    TJ_in_UT

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    I did hair bioresonance testing recently, and the testing found that I was deficient in lithium. Until then, I didn't even know that we needed it. I started taking 5 mg lithium orotate, and while it helped with mood, motivation, and libido, I started having problems with my sleep right away. I tend to be a slow metabolizer of drugs and supplements, and sometimes have rather paradoxical reactions, so I shouldn't be surprised: for example, Prozac/fluoxetine is supposed to be a more stimulating drug, but it's actually calming for me.

    Has anyone else had this kind of reaction? Anyway, I'm now trying to take it only every third day, but I still have problems getting to sleep on those nights, even though I take it first thing in the morning. I'm irritated that I can't find it in powder form or in a dose small than 5 mg, and the tablets I bought virtually disintegrate in my pill cutter.
     
  18. Iritu1021

    Iritu1021 Breaking Through The Fog

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    TJ, you can buy lithium capsules online (I used Pure brand) and divide them into empty capsules. Lithium does lower norephinephrine and T3, especially in the beginning. Taking some tyrosine might help to override the fatigue you are feeling.
     
  19. heyitisjustin

    heyitisjustin Senior Member

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    Lithium helps my sleep. Have you tried taking it with breakfast?
     
  20. TJ_in_UT

    TJ_in_UT

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    Let me clarify a bit. I was taking it in the morning (not with breakfast, as I do intermittent fasting daily), and feeling good throughout the day, but then I'd have that "tired but wired" feeling at night, and wouldn't be able to sleep.

    I do have an update, now. Yesterday I tried an experiment. I thought that the tired but wired feeling might be a reaction to having the lithium out of my system, so I took it in the morning, then again in the evening with dinner. I slept very well!
     

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