Sea
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,286
- Location
- NSW Australia
Those patients probably never go back to him and he assumes they must be cured.
-
Welcome to Phoenix Rising!
Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.
To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.
Lightening process
- Thread starter Jessie 107
- Start date
- Messages
- 66
Ask your doctor what evidence he has that the lightning process works.
Unless you are willing to sign paperwork beforehand agreeing that LP will, undoubtedly, cure you, I don't think you're allowed on the course, as far as I know. So that might give you a clue as to whether it is your cup of tea, or not.
Unless you are willing to sign paperwork beforehand agreeing that LP will, undoubtedly, cure you, I don't think you're allowed on the course, as far as I know. So that might give you a clue as to whether it is your cup of tea, or not.
There was a Professor around Romford who was in favour of the Lightning Process. He had somone working at the clinic there. I spoke to her on the phone and got a hard sell to pay to see her.
Didn't do it as she didn't sound as if she understood the disease.
Didn't do it as she didn't sound as if she understood the disease.
- Messages
- 27
- Location
- New Zealand
I did the Lightning process late last year, as had heard of people I knew (not personally but through friends) who recovered. I was desperate, hopeful and did do some research.
Obviously not enough, as I went ahead with it and it was terrible. Gave it a months go after the course ( putting the LP in action) but it was just pushing through &I I felt miserable!
After 3 or so weeks, I decided that was that, I need to let my body recover. I had a bad crash.
Not a good idea if you truly have ME.
Obviously not enough, as I went ahead with it and it was terrible. Gave it a months go after the course ( putting the LP in action) but it was just pushing through &I I felt miserable!
After 3 or so weeks, I decided that was that, I need to let my body recover. I had a bad crash.
Not a good idea if you truly have ME.
charles shepherd
Senior Member
- Messages
- 2,239
ASA adjudication on Phil Parker Group/Lightning Process:
Ad description
The website www.lightningprocess.co.uk, visited on 9 October 2012, was headed "Lightning Process - Phil Parker's Personal View". Text stated "This is my personal site (for the official one click here) all about the Lightning Process' development and my journey with it from a small clinic in North London to it being practiced across the world. In it you'll find stories of those who inspired me with how they used the mind body connection to get over ME/CFS, MS, Depression, Anxiety, Chronic Pain and Eating Disorders and much more".
Issue
Hampshire Trading Standards challenged whether the references to "ME/CFS, MS, Depression, Anxiety, Chronic Pain and Eating Disorders" misleadingly implied that the Lightning Process could treat or cure those conditions.
Response
Phil Parker Group Ltd said the site was not owned by them but by Phil Parker personally and that nothing was being sold from the site, which was only for discussion and opinions. They said it did not include links to Lightning Process practitioners and their websites, did not provide information about how to take the training with either Phil or the team, did not use the corporate branding and logos which were used on their commercial sites and did not link to the shop where their products were available. They said the site had no commercial intent and was not a marketing communication within the remit of the Code.
They said there was an incredible amount of information about the Lightning Process on the internet, some of which was accurate and some of which was not, and that Phil Parker wanted to provide people with correct information about it. They considered it reasonable that Phil Parker, who had designed the Lightning Process and had qualifications relevant to the treatment of CFS/ME, was allowed to share his views on the Lightning Process in relation to CFS/ME, and other conditions, on his personal website. They said that to prevent Phil Parker discussing his opinions about the Lightning Process on the site would infringe upon his freedom of speech. Nevertheless, the challenged claims were removed from the site in February 2013.
Assessment
Upheld
The ASA noted that Phil Parker Group did not believe that the Code applied to Phil Parker's "personal" website. The Introduction to the UK Code of Non-broadcast Advertising, Sales Promotion and Direct Marketing (the Code) stated that the Code applied to "Advertisements and other marketing communications by or from companies, organisations or sole traders on their own websites, or in other non-paid-for space online under their control, that are directly connected with the supply or transfer of goods, services, opportunities and gifts, or which consist of direct solicitations of donations as part of their own fund-raising activities".
We noted that the website's URL was "www.lightningprocess.co.uk"; that there was an active link to the official Lightning Process website (www.lightningprocess.com); that the official Lightning Process website was headed "Phil Parker Lightning Process® - the mind-body connection training"; and that the content of the website was almost exclusively about the Lightning Process. We considered that Phil Parker was inextricably linked with the Lightning Process brand and that the content on the website would, as far as it related to the Lightning Process, be understood by consumers as a promotion by Phil Parker of his commercial proposition, in which he had a financial interest. We therefore considered that that content was directly connected to the supply of goods and services and was subject to the Code.
We noted that the home page of the website referred to Phil Parker's "journey" with the Lightning Process and to the stories that consumers would find within the site about those who had used the "mind body connection" to "get over ME/CFS, MS, Depression, Anxiety, Chronic Pain and Eating Disorders and much more". We considered that visitors to the website would infer from the home page that the Lightning Process could be effective in treating each of the conditions listed.
We had previously considered a complaint about the official Lightning Process website which made claims about the use of the Lightning Process in the treatment of various medical conditions, including ME/CFS, MS, depression, anxiety, chronic pain and eating disorders. In our adjudication we concluded that we had not seen a suitably robust body of evidence to demonstrate the efficacy of the Lightning Process in the treatment of any of those conditions. We also concluded that references to medical conditions, for which medical supervision should be sought, including MS, depression and eating disorders, had breached the Code, because of the risk that they might discourage readers from seeking essential treatment for those conditions. Phil Parker Group had said Phil Parker was a registered hypnotherapist, osteopath and psychotherapist and, while we noted that he might be qualified to treat conditions such as depression, we also noted that the official Lightning Process website (which was linked to from the home page of the "personal" site) was intended to direct prospective customers to find their local Lightning Process practitioner, who need not be similarly qualified.
Because we considered that the website was subject to the Code, and because we had not seen evidence to show that the Lightning Process could treat ME/CFS, MS, depression, anxiety, chronic pain and eating disorders, we concluded that the website was likely to mislead consumers regarding the benefits of the Lightning Process in the treatment of people with those conditions. Furthermore, because the mention of MS, depression and eating disorders could discourage readers from seeking essential treatment under the supervision of a suitably qualified health professional, we concluded that the reference to them was misleading for that reason also.
The website breached CAP Code (Edition 12) rules 3.1 (Misleading advertising), 3.7 (Substantiation) and 12.1 and 12.2 (Medicines, medical devices, health-related products and beauty products).
Action
The claims must not appear again in their current form. We welcomed the decision to remove the claims. We told Phil Parker Group not to make claims on websites within their control that were directly connected with the supply of their goods and services if those claims could not be supported with robust evidence. We also told them not to refer to conditions for which advice should be sought from suitably qualified health professionals.
Ad description
The website www.lightningprocess.co.uk, visited on 9 October 2012, was headed "Lightning Process - Phil Parker's Personal View". Text stated "This is my personal site (for the official one click here) all about the Lightning Process' development and my journey with it from a small clinic in North London to it being practiced across the world. In it you'll find stories of those who inspired me with how they used the mind body connection to get over ME/CFS, MS, Depression, Anxiety, Chronic Pain and Eating Disorders and much more".
Issue
Hampshire Trading Standards challenged whether the references to "ME/CFS, MS, Depression, Anxiety, Chronic Pain and Eating Disorders" misleadingly implied that the Lightning Process could treat or cure those conditions.
Response
Phil Parker Group Ltd said the site was not owned by them but by Phil Parker personally and that nothing was being sold from the site, which was only for discussion and opinions. They said it did not include links to Lightning Process practitioners and their websites, did not provide information about how to take the training with either Phil or the team, did not use the corporate branding and logos which were used on their commercial sites and did not link to the shop where their products were available. They said the site had no commercial intent and was not a marketing communication within the remit of the Code.
They said there was an incredible amount of information about the Lightning Process on the internet, some of which was accurate and some of which was not, and that Phil Parker wanted to provide people with correct information about it. They considered it reasonable that Phil Parker, who had designed the Lightning Process and had qualifications relevant to the treatment of CFS/ME, was allowed to share his views on the Lightning Process in relation to CFS/ME, and other conditions, on his personal website. They said that to prevent Phil Parker discussing his opinions about the Lightning Process on the site would infringe upon his freedom of speech. Nevertheless, the challenged claims were removed from the site in February 2013.
Assessment
Upheld
The ASA noted that Phil Parker Group did not believe that the Code applied to Phil Parker's "personal" website. The Introduction to the UK Code of Non-broadcast Advertising, Sales Promotion and Direct Marketing (the Code) stated that the Code applied to "Advertisements and other marketing communications by or from companies, organisations or sole traders on their own websites, or in other non-paid-for space online under their control, that are directly connected with the supply or transfer of goods, services, opportunities and gifts, or which consist of direct solicitations of donations as part of their own fund-raising activities".
We noted that the website's URL was "www.lightningprocess.co.uk"; that there was an active link to the official Lightning Process website (www.lightningprocess.com); that the official Lightning Process website was headed "Phil Parker Lightning Process® - the mind-body connection training"; and that the content of the website was almost exclusively about the Lightning Process. We considered that Phil Parker was inextricably linked with the Lightning Process brand and that the content on the website would, as far as it related to the Lightning Process, be understood by consumers as a promotion by Phil Parker of his commercial proposition, in which he had a financial interest. We therefore considered that that content was directly connected to the supply of goods and services and was subject to the Code.
We noted that the home page of the website referred to Phil Parker's "journey" with the Lightning Process and to the stories that consumers would find within the site about those who had used the "mind body connection" to "get over ME/CFS, MS, Depression, Anxiety, Chronic Pain and Eating Disorders and much more". We considered that visitors to the website would infer from the home page that the Lightning Process could be effective in treating each of the conditions listed.
We had previously considered a complaint about the official Lightning Process website which made claims about the use of the Lightning Process in the treatment of various medical conditions, including ME/CFS, MS, depression, anxiety, chronic pain and eating disorders. In our adjudication we concluded that we had not seen a suitably robust body of evidence to demonstrate the efficacy of the Lightning Process in the treatment of any of those conditions. We also concluded that references to medical conditions, for which medical supervision should be sought, including MS, depression and eating disorders, had breached the Code, because of the risk that they might discourage readers from seeking essential treatment for those conditions. Phil Parker Group had said Phil Parker was a registered hypnotherapist, osteopath and psychotherapist and, while we noted that he might be qualified to treat conditions such as depression, we also noted that the official Lightning Process website (which was linked to from the home page of the "personal" site) was intended to direct prospective customers to find their local Lightning Process practitioner, who need not be similarly qualified.
Because we considered that the website was subject to the Code, and because we had not seen evidence to show that the Lightning Process could treat ME/CFS, MS, depression, anxiety, chronic pain and eating disorders, we concluded that the website was likely to mislead consumers regarding the benefits of the Lightning Process in the treatment of people with those conditions. Furthermore, because the mention of MS, depression and eating disorders could discourage readers from seeking essential treatment under the supervision of a suitably qualified health professional, we concluded that the reference to them was misleading for that reason also.
The website breached CAP Code (Edition 12) rules 3.1 (Misleading advertising), 3.7 (Substantiation) and 12.1 and 12.2 (Medicines, medical devices, health-related products and beauty products).
Action
The claims must not appear again in their current form. We welcomed the decision to remove the claims. We told Phil Parker Group not to make claims on websites within their control that were directly connected with the supply of their goods and services if those claims could not be supported with robust evidence. We also told them not to refer to conditions for which advice should be sought from suitably qualified health professionals.
arewenearlythereyet
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,478
Love it 
Chezboo
NOT MY BOARD
- Messages
- 55
Thank you @charles shepherd for posting the 'ASA adjudication on Phil Parker Group/Lightning Process:'
My Dr in Sydney Australia, who apparently 'knows about CFS' told me that I might be cured by the Lightning Process, he really was extremely keen on the idea. It was a very uncomfortable few moments that followed, whereby I shifted about in my seat as I attempted to relate that in the UK this had had been pulled up by Trading Standards in response to false advertising. Thank you for pursuing this on behalf of pwME. It is not only causing untold harm throughout the UK but in many other countries throughout the world. This action of yours has really supported me.
I shall be printing this out for my next visit. However, I'm not sure I'll convince him that 'CFS' is much more than unpleasant fatigue which is somewhat bothersome. There is no interest in further reading, as shall we say people like his sister who have MS are really sick... And before anyone asks, yes, I am DR shopping yet again.
My Dr in Sydney Australia, who apparently 'knows about CFS' told me that I might be cured by the Lightning Process, he really was extremely keen on the idea. It was a very uncomfortable few moments that followed, whereby I shifted about in my seat as I attempted to relate that in the UK this had had been pulled up by Trading Standards in response to false advertising. Thank you for pursuing this on behalf of pwME. It is not only causing untold harm throughout the UK but in many other countries throughout the world. This action of yours has really supported me.
I shall be printing this out for my next visit. However, I'm not sure I'll convince him that 'CFS' is much more than unpleasant fatigue which is somewhat bothersome. There is no interest in further reading, as shall we say people like his sister who have MS are really sick... And before anyone asks, yes, I am DR shopping yet again.
Last edited:
The Lightning Process has been discussed many times on PR. Here’s a thread where a spammer got us all wound up:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/i-recovered-with-lightning-process.47880/
And here’s someone else who tried it:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-the-lightning-process.3720/page-9#post-83848
I commented on this at the end of one of my Esther Crawley rants, as she managed to blag an undisclosed sum of money to waste on the SMILE trial, which studied the effectiveness of the Lightening Process by making ill 12-year olds stand in a circle (I don’t mean hold hands and form a circle, I mean draw a circle on the floor and stand in it). As far as I know the results haven’t been published yet, but the main thing is EC got to trouser the cash and move on so all’s well.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nic-fatigue-syndrome.47743/page-4#post-783021
I had forgotten about Honi the Circle Drawer, so I’m glad this thread has brought back fond memories.
We also discussed the claims of someone called Beverley somewhere, whom Phil Parker has cured of everything. Can’t find the link.
Anyway, for anyone who decides the Lightning Process isn’t for them, why not try burlesque stripping?
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ght-months-now-im-a-burlesque-stripper.39973/
Oh the laughs we have on PR. No I haven’t got anything better to do today.
Personally I think Phil Parker could avoid any further trouble with the ASA if he just called it a crash-course for ME patients.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/i-recovered-with-lightning-process.47880/
And here’s someone else who tried it:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-the-lightning-process.3720/page-9#post-83848
I commented on this at the end of one of my Esther Crawley rants, as she managed to blag an undisclosed sum of money to waste on the SMILE trial, which studied the effectiveness of the Lightening Process by making ill 12-year olds stand in a circle (I don’t mean hold hands and form a circle, I mean draw a circle on the floor and stand in it). As far as I know the results haven’t been published yet, but the main thing is EC got to trouser the cash and move on so all’s well.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nic-fatigue-syndrome.47743/page-4#post-783021
I had forgotten about Honi the Circle Drawer, so I’m glad this thread has brought back fond memories.
We also discussed the claims of someone called Beverley somewhere, whom Phil Parker has cured of everything. Can’t find the link.
Anyway, for anyone who decides the Lightning Process isn’t for them, why not try burlesque stripping?
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ght-months-now-im-a-burlesque-stripper.39973/
Oh the laughs we have on PR. No I haven’t got anything better to do today.
Personally I think Phil Parker could avoid any further trouble with the ASA if he just called it a crash-course for ME patients.
It has just occured to me that making an ill child stand on the spot in a circle until they agree that they are not ill is the same in principle as making a naughty child stand in the corner until they agree to stop being naughty and say they are sorry.
For this, rather than being dismissed from her post of Professor in Child Health at Bristol University, banned from being allowed near children again, and locked up, she received a £164,000 grant from the Linbury Trust and the Ashden Trust and never had to publish her findings.
I suppose one small mercy was that children too unwell to attend hospital appointments were excluded, so it's unlikely that many moderate or severe ME patients were harmed during her experiments. But that's a small crumb to be grateful for.
For this, rather than being dismissed from her post of Professor in Child Health at Bristol University, banned from being allowed near children again, and locked up, she received a £164,000 grant from the Linbury Trust and the Ashden Trust and never had to publish her findings.
I suppose one small mercy was that children too unwell to attend hospital appointments were excluded, so it's unlikely that many moderate or severe ME patients were harmed during her experiments. But that's a small crumb to be grateful for.
Maybe it's time to make some requests for the SMILE data, since she's gone a very long time without publishing it.
From MEPedia:
which looks increasingly like the cattleshit it is the longer time passes and it remains unpublished.
6 months ago. And the trial concluded a long time before that, over 4 years ago according to the trial registration at http://www.isrctn.com/ISRCTN81456207 . In 2015 she managed to publish 2 papers using data from the trial, but never the main results.
It must've been quite a trainwreck for her to try to bury it for this long.
Snow Leopard
Hibernating
- Messages
- 5,902
- Location
- South Australia
Very suspicious! Not publishing main results of a clinical trial is always considered a "questionable research practise".
I must admit to having no knowledge of how the grant contracts are drawn. One would reasonably expect a competently drawn contract to require publication within a certain time, subject to provisions allowing for variation of terms in specified conditions and under fixed procedures. One would expect failure to comply to have a seriously damaging effect on future funding applications. After all, its not the foreign aid budget.
Nothing seems to be as one might expect.
Nothing seems to be as one might expect.
slysaint
Senior Member
- Messages
- 2,125
Not read this before:
https://meagenda.wordpress.com/category/dr-esther-crawley/
"The Committee felt that there may be a slight risk of a child being worse after therapy (but equally a chance of improvement) and considered that they could withdraw at any time from the study if they wanted to. Supervision of the process was in place"
"The Committee were reassured by the fact that AYME had been consulted during the planning of this study."
no conflict of interest mentioned (wasn't she their medical adviser at the time or doesn't that count?)
"
15. Participant Information
The Committee was unsure if the ME groups have enough information in the PIS to join.
The Committee felt that the PIS should include statistics on the risks of getting worse, whether there was no change, or whether the treatment was helpful."
"
The committee voted unanimously to confirm the favourable opinion of the application with the following additional conditions:
1. PIS for Teenagers and PIS for Parents: Please add the fact that the Lightning Practitioner is not clinically (medically) qualified (trained)."
...........taking the?
eta: this has probably been posted elsewhere but figured it was also relevant here (big chunk on LP).
http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/...tigue-syndrome-study-issues-to-be-considered/
https://meagenda.wordpress.com/category/dr-esther-crawley/
"The Committee felt that there may be a slight risk of a child being worse after therapy (but equally a chance of improvement) and considered that they could withdraw at any time from the study if they wanted to. Supervision of the process was in place"
"The Committee were reassured by the fact that AYME had been consulted during the planning of this study."
no conflict of interest mentioned (wasn't she their medical adviser at the time or doesn't that count?)
"
15. Participant Information
The Committee was unsure if the ME groups have enough information in the PIS to join.
The Committee felt that the PIS should include statistics on the risks of getting worse, whether there was no change, or whether the treatment was helpful."
"
The committee voted unanimously to confirm the favourable opinion of the application with the following additional conditions:
1. PIS for Teenagers and PIS for Parents: Please add the fact that the Lightning Practitioner is not clinically (medically) qualified (trained)."
...........taking the?
eta: this has probably been posted elsewhere but figured it was also relevant here (big chunk on LP).
http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/...tigue-syndrome-study-issues-to-be-considered/
Last edited:
I seem to recall that it is not only potential c.o.i. that should have been taken into account.
ladycatlover
Senior Member
- Messages
- 203
- Location
- Liverpool, UK
I suspect a lot of the links may be busted now, but I wrote about the Lightning Process way back in 2007. Just checked the Quackometer website... Sadly the actual Quackometer that I used in my blog isn't available now. Real loss! Looking back at my blog post, I'd forgotten about Reverse Therapy!
Just thought you might like a Historical Document to look at.
And from the same source... Never give up, Never surrender!
Real loss! Looking back at my blog post, I'd forgotten about Reverse Therapy! Just thought you might like a Historical Document to look at.
And from the same source... Never give up, Never surrender!
I suspect a lot of the links may be busted now, but I wrote about the Lightning Process way back in 2007. Just checked the Quackometer website... Sadly the actual Quackometer that I used in my blog isn't available now.
Brilliant!
hellytheelephant
Senior Member
- Messages
- 1,137
- Location
- S W England
@TiredSam 19,000 of us duvet- dwellers doing Burlesque...that's not gonna be pretty!!!!
Not to mention being too sick to put clothes ON, never mind taking them off LOL!
Not to mention being too sick to put clothes ON, never mind taking them off LOL!
ChrisD
Senior Member
- Messages
- 475
- Location
- East Sussex
I undertook the LP course last year when I was in a really tricky spot with my CFS/Fibro, having just had to leave my work and being restricted to my bedroom/ the house. Someone recommended the LP to me and I leaped at it based in their review of recovery (and threw the money at it), it was only ten minutes from my house as well so very convenient. Still it was quite difficult for me to get there as there was no bus or car lift available and I was basicallyy exhausted upon arrriving and for the most of the time in the course room, slumped in the chair with poor concentration so only half of the info was going in. The leader then wanted me to leap up from the chair and come to the 'board game' with enthusiasm to replicate and show desire for recovery etc. but I feel that there could have been a little more empathy for the situation. It was also very bizarre having a group session where everyone felt quite unsure of what results they were supposed to be getting and therefore everything became quite forced, almost as if people were lying to themselves a bit.
I certainly didn't have the miracle recovery by the third day BUT there was a very small improvement just on the basis of removing the negative thoughts aspect and being more mindful about my situation, it enabled me to turn a corner instantly at the start of the onset of my 'true ME' and start using a combination of therapies to move towards recovery.
At the same time I was also experimenting with Gcmaf and almost certainly seeing improvement from that simultaneously (but could only afford that for amonth), when the LP practitioner called me she was convinced that LP had helped me over that month but in reality it was probably the GCMAF or Rerum.
I do think there is definitely some value in the LP and the concept of overriding the immune system with Psychological practice, still to this day with my recovery (6 months later) I practive a very basic LP method. But what I think they are missing is that it is still just one piece of the puzzle, as if performed with CBT, GET, Mitochondrial support, Supplements, Diet, Meditation, Yoga, Acupuncture/Chiropractic - that is when you start to see results and true healing......
I certainly didn't have the miracle recovery by the third day BUT there was a very small improvement just on the basis of removing the negative thoughts aspect and being more mindful about my situation, it enabled me to turn a corner instantly at the start of the onset of my 'true ME' and start using a combination of therapies to move towards recovery.
At the same time I was also experimenting with Gcmaf and almost certainly seeing improvement from that simultaneously (but could only afford that for amonth), when the LP practitioner called me she was convinced that LP had helped me over that month but in reality it was probably the GCMAF or Rerum.
I do think there is definitely some value in the LP and the concept of overriding the immune system with Psychological practice, still to this day with my recovery (6 months later) I practive a very basic LP method. But what I think they are missing is that it is still just one piece of the puzzle, as if performed with CBT, GET, Mitochondrial support, Supplements, Diet, Meditation, Yoga, Acupuncture/Chiropractic - that is when you start to see results and true healing......