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Lesson learned: Separate ME from CFS

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,873
“Patients diagnosed using broader or other criteria for CFS or its hybrids (Oxford, Reeves, London, Fukuda, CCC, etc.) should be reassessed with the ICC. Those who fulfill the criteria have ME; those who do not would remain in the more encompassing CFS classification.”

Very interesting. That quote appears to come from a proposal made at the December 2014 CFSAC Meeting.

I guess fact they are making this proposal now indicates that at the moment, there is no official understanding that ME = ICC, or any official indication that ME is a different entity to CFS.

So at present, it seems that the terms ME and CFS are both without any precise definition, because presumably either ME or CFS could be defined by any inclusion criteria (Oxford, Reeves, London, Fukuda, CCC and ICC), depending on which criteria the researchers are using.


There does not seem to be much scientific basis for that CFSAC meeting proposal though. It's somewhat arbitrary to say that those patients who satisfy the ICC have a different disease to those who satisfy the CCC.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,873
If you follow the ICC hyperlink, you'll find that quotation on introductory page ii.

Ah, I missed that link (links aren't very prominent on PR).

So it seems the authors of the ICC always had it in mind that the ICC should be used to define ME, and also that CFS should be defined by the other criteria, such as the Oxford, Reeves, London, Fukuda and CCC criteria.
 
Messages
37
We don't have ME in the United States. We call it CFS. If sounds like you're trying to get rid of all the Americans. I didn't realize this was a British only group.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
We don't have ME in the United States. We call it CFS. If sounds like you're trying to get rid of all the Americans. I didn't realize this was a British only group.

It seems that ME is the preferred name for ICC which is 3 from USA, 3 from Canada, 2 from UK, 2 from Belgium, one working in USA, and 2 from Antipodes.
 

Ember

Senior Member
Messages
2,115
It seems that ME is the preferred name for ICC which is 3 from USA, 3 from Canada, 2 from UK, 2 from Belgium, one working in USA, and 2 from Antipodes.
You've missed over half of them: "Authors and their affiliations are continued on the back inside cover."
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
We don't have ME in the United States. We call it CFS. If sounds like you're trying to get rid of all the Americans. I didn't realize this was a British only group.
We do have ME in the US. But the government hasn't really acknowledged it for quite a while, which has caused a lot of confusion and other complications. What the government does have currently is broadly defined CFS, which is both an inaccurate label ("fatigue" is a minor and vague symptom) and can encompass anything from chronic fatigue to severe ME with PEM, and easily includes many misdiagnoses.

Opting for the name "ME" doesn't exclude Americans. Nor does differentiating a vague CFS concept from a much more strictly defined ME concept. No one is barring the gate against the Americans who can't yet get an ME diagnosis. If someone fits the ME criteria, they have ME. If they don't fit it, maybe they have atypical ME, a different disease, or idiopathic chronic fatigue.

In any case, people without strictly defined ME certainly aren't going to be chased off. We have many regular forum members who don't have ME, but instead come here to learn about and discuss different symptoms. And as long as they don't lecture ME patients about the importance of exercise, everyone gets along just fine :p
 
Messages
37
We do have ME in the US. But the government hasn't really acknowledged it for quite a while, which has caused a lot of confusion and other complications. What the government does have currently is broadly defined CFS, which is both an inaccurate label ("fatigue" is a minor and vague symptom) and can encompass anything from chronic fatigue to severe ME with PEM, and easily includes many misdiagnoses.

Opting for the name "ME" doesn't exclude Americans. Nor does differentiating a vague CFS concept from a much more strictly defined ME concept. No one is barring the gate against the Americans who can't yet get an ME diagnosis. If someone fits the ME criteria, they have ME. If they don't fit it, maybe they have atypical ME, a different disease, or idiopathic chronic fatigue.

In any case, people without strictly defined ME certainly aren't going to be chased off. We have many regular forum members who don't have ME, but instead come here to learn about and discuss different symptoms. And as long as they don't lecture ME patients about the importance of exercise, everyone gets along just fine :p



If you are implying that I "lectured" anyone about the importance, you are mistaken. But that was another post.

Thank you for satisfactorily answering my question about the topic of this discussion.

And to anyone else who wants to challenge my life experiences - I do know about the dark rooms and IVs from personal experience. Don't hate me because I found a respite.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
If you are implying that I "lectured" anyone about the importance, you are mistaken. But that was another post.
I'm not sure why you would infer that from what I wrote. I was responding to your question.
And to anyone else who wants to challenge my life experiences - I do know about the dark rooms and IVs from personal experience. Don't hate me because I found a respite.
I'm also confused about where this is coming from. No one has attacked your personal experiences, or has expressed any "hate" regarding your improvement - I think we're all quite happy when anyone recovers from anything.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
That's what I thought 10 years ago. :(
The future cannot be predicted with accuracy unless its something we already know is on the way from firsthand knowledge ... in which case its not a prediction. There are presumptions behind my claim. Those might be wrong. However at some point a prediction like this is likely to be right, especially if its vague enough.

What impresses me is the way the current research findings intersect. We are coming to similar conclusions using different lines of inquiry and different techniques. That's encouraging. What happens with that is very much dependent on funding though. No funding equals no progress.
 
Messages
37
I'm not sure why you would infer that from what I wrote. I was responding to your question.

I'm also confused about where this is coming from. No one has attacked your personal experiences, or has expressed any "hate" regarding your improvement - I think we're all quite happy when anyone recovers from anything.


You may be confused but you've managed to invalidate all of my hurt feelings with one post. Good job. You're almost as good as all the doctors over the past 20 years who told me it was all in my head and I should just get better and quit bothering them. Message received. This is not a nice place.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
You may be confused but you've managed to invalidate all of my hurt feelings with one post. Good job. You're almost as good as all the doctors over the past 20 years who told me it was all in my head and I should just get better and quit bothering them. Message received. This is not a nice place.
Maybe you could point out what was said that was hurtful? It's not useful (or nice) to accuse people of saying something hurtful when they can't figure out what you're referring to. You have a right to feel hurt, but if you're going to blame someone else for it, please be more specific.
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
If you are implying that I "lectured" anyone about the importance, you are mistaken. But that was another post.

Thank you for satisfactorily answering my question about the topic of this discussion.

And to anyone else who wants to challenge my life experiences - I do know about the dark rooms and IVs from personal experience. Don't hate me because I found a respite.

@Unduki -- You did state that exercise was important for everybody with chronic illness. This isn't true and not an option for those with severe ME. Nobody is challenging your life experiences and nobody 'hates' you. When you make comments that everybody with ME should try to exercise, this is problematic.

You may be confused but you've managed to invalidate all of my hurt feelings with one post. Good job. You're almost as good as all the doctors over the past 20 years who told me it was all in my head and I should just get better and quit bothering them. Message received. This is not a nice place.

Actually Phoenix Rising is a very nice place. Nobody has invalidated you. If you are going to make comments that require an explanation, then explain what you mean rather than taking it personally. I tried to address all of this with you in a PM and you totally ignored me. Nobody has invalidated you but please know this -- if you claim that people with severe ME should attempt exercise this is upsetting for those who are lying in their beds unable to move, totally incapacitated -- the act of eating might cause severe PENE -- exercise is out of the question when the act of moving slightly is impossible. Please try to understand where people are coming from without taking things personally. I don't see any members responding with hate or any negativity.
 
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Richie

Senior Member
Messages
129
Speaking as a UK CFS/ME/undiagnosed sth else sufferer, with multiple biomedicallly proven probs common to the CFS/ME and fibro community, I believe we must be careful of defining ME as bad ME/CFS and CFS as mild ME/CFS.

Ultimately ME just that - myalgic encephalomyeelitis, regardless of severity of symptoms and possibly with different symptoms according to aetiological agent e.g late stage Lymes causes encephalomyelitis, but if you have Lyme's ME you will probably have numerous symptoms typical of Lyme's. (I know soem America CFS brain scans and spinal fluids are different from American Lymes but that does not mean Lyme's does not cause ME, it may even be that the US CFS patients in the cohort did not have ME while the Lyme's did - multiple possible interpretations...)

Rituximabbers do not have ME but thay are apparently very sick. Dorsal root ganglionitis victims are very sick too. Autopsies in the UK have shown DRG but not ME in deceased ME patients.

What we need is actual proper investigation of patients to find who has what. Until that occurs no one has the right to say "I have real ME, you don't, coz I'm sicker than you are and my criteria are stricter" or such like. MS has aspectrum of disability but it's all MS. Why should ME be different?

ME is a working term which offers some protection to us all. I prefer CFIDS for comprehensive nature and accuracy but CFIDS is not WHO recogniosed as sb here once pointed out. For all its problems ME/CFS has the advantage of saying we are organically ill - some have ME, but those among us without ME may be just as sick and until proper medicine is done on us we do not know who is who - and no criteria can tell us , only proper biomedical investigation for actual ME.

Our great enemy imo is not the term CFS, but the iniquitous doctrine of false illness belief (DFIB), An inversion of medical practice which means all of us, whatever we have, are after a few routine medical tests labelled as somatisers and not in the sense of people, who like Parkinson's patients, lupus patients, MS patioents, psoriasis sufferers etc may be having some stress input into a physical illness but basically people with illness anxiety. This is still the guiding principle of treatment in the UK , with the pretence that we are deconditioned (for which read not classical lack of fitness but a hysterical/hypochondriacal driven l fear of exercise and consequent sensitivity to exercise, with, yeh perhaps some lack of fitness and basically in need of CBT).

DFIB is what stands in the way of us all, whatever we have. As CFS/ME we stand together. And if we separate according to symptoms/criteria but without anyone ever having diagnosed any of us anatomically as ME or otherwise, how much do we really car about objective biological diagnosis?

Attack FIB doctrine at every opportunity. Demand proper biomedical investigation, research and treatment and the CFS/ME/whatever will solve itself. Do we want to see a situation where lots of sick people are deprived of the ME label coz they are not qite sick enough for certain criteria, end up in the hands of the FIBBERS, and have no recourse to support from the larger ME/CFS community, whan we do not even know for sure that they do not have actual, if mild, ME?
 

caledonia

Senior Member
After the charade of video and p2p I think as a community all efforts should go to separate CFS from ME.

We are never going to move forward until that happens. We can agree later on criteria, and details.
The bad we loose all the current studies? Well since they are obviously un-usable to our advantage anyways, not big loss since none was worth including for p2p. We can use the raw data and republish w the ME criteria and exclude the vague CFS subjects. and we duplicate the good ones, double blinded. Which apparently is what will get us somewhere. Just my conclusion.

This is exactly what the National PR Campaign for ME is calling for. Please donate if you can. https://meadvocacy.nationbuilder.com/donatepr