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Leaflet on paediatric ME/CFS circulated by AYME to 10,000 UK GPs

Chrisb

Senior Member
Messages
1,051
It would be interesting to know the attitude of those who believe in some idea of failure of "sleep hygiene", as discussed earlier,(sorry, my computer skills are very limited, but I am learning) towards conditions such as narcolepsy and encephalitis lethargica. I am not suggesting that they are the same condition but there are similarities and areas of overlap. Are, or were, these conditions brought about by a greater failure of sleep hygiene bringing on the more severe symptoms? If this be a major cause of illness why do not all students and junior doctors go on to develop CFS?

If glandular fever is time limited to three to four months presumably there must be an identifiable point at which glandular fever ends and ME/CFS commences. What is claimed to be the empirical evidence to support the suggestion. Or are symptoms of ME/CFS already evident in the patient before the termination of the glandular fever. How would one distinguish? One might have expected the consultant phsycians and infectious diseases specialists of old, with long experience of the early stages of the illness, to have made relevant observations or was it only their abnormal illness beliefs which prevented them from seeing the psychogenic nature of the continuing symptoms?

I suggest that those consultants used to say the condition might go on for up to three years. On this basis most of those that Crawley claims to cure would have been largely invisible to the system after about six months. Those not recovered after three years are the same as those who are not helped by the supposed modern methods.

It is not entirely clear from what she is quoted as saying that Crawley grasps the difficulties in saying that if the condition continues for three or four months we would call it chronic fatigue syndrome. She makes it seem that this is purely a matter of taxonomy, a matter of form. What we are interested in is matters of substance.

All the talk about the purpose of some charities has brought about the recall of a book from my youth. I think it must have been The Hidden Persuaders by Vance Packard, although I shall have to check when I am next able to. The book would have been essential reading for those who went on to become, and are now, senior civil servants. It outlined the ways in which business sought to change the perception of the public towards its products . One of the ways was to obtain influence with consumer groups by forms of entryism, so that the public would imagine the views expressed by such groups to be their own views. Legislators and regulators could then be dealt with appropriately.That may be a subject for a different thread.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
AYME has responded to my email:
The statement to which you are referring is based on evidence gained from a recent study into M.E./CFS and treatment outcomes. Unfortunately, the research paper is yet to be published so we are unable to share the source or any further details at this time.
So all of their conclusions are based on a single study which might not even have been reviewed yet. I smell heavy spin coming our way from that paper.
 

Debbie23

Senior Member
Messages
137
Some time around age 11 or so I never mentioned it again. What they cannot see isn't real to most people. I also had no clue as to what was wrong at that age, though to be fair this was the early 70s and its would be more than another decade before I ever heard of ME. Nor had anyone told me that people can have ongoing issues after viral encephalitis which I had at age 7.

Again, Alex. Sadly, very familiar. I too think my ME started aged seven, I was a sickly child right from being a baby, asthma, recurrent infections, bad reaction to measles vaccine etc. but in hindsight that was definitely around the time when my ME started. There was a definite change in the way I was ill from this point onwards which totally fits 'ME' in a way I don't think I did before. We don't know because as far as I know it wasn't diagnosed at the time, but suspect me and my dad had glandular fever when I was seven, we both got the same thing and struggled to shift it for a year. We both have ME, only ones in our family who have it. We suspect my maternal great grandmother also had it, although that's obviously the other side of the family to my dad, but again don't know for sure but it would totally fit, and would make sense of a lot, if she did. But out of the immediate family now me and my dad have a lot of common factors which stretch back and this was one of them.

But like you I just got to a point where I just stopped confiding in adults around me as a child who wasn't yet diagnosed with ME. There was no point, again not including my parents in this, but adults fell into the don't care or don't believe category. I had a lot of issues with pain in joints, bones etc. naturally they would flair more at school, and during holidays and weekends would get better. Now I understand about rest and PEM, this obviously makes total sense as to why this was happening. But because of this, and because symptoms could come and go so rapidly and pain could move around etc. those inclined to disbelief believed even less. So I just stopped telling grown ups about any of it, no matter how scared or ill felt, because when I tried no one listened, and even worse I was openly accused of making it up, and even openly mocked for it. So I just stopped telling grown ups about any of it, even those who wanted to help but didn't know how.

Those in that latter category were also damaged by the disbelieving scorn of those who refused to believe it was anything other than 'school phobia'. My poor parents, like I suspect most ME parents, went through the ringer trying to balance parental instinct that something was wrong and what was right for me, against the threats they were having made about my removal etc. it was hell for them too, and while they tried to shelter me from it, I was aware of some of it because they couldn't shelter me totally. Not least of all because I was being told by child psychologists who thought I had emotional issues, that if I didn't go back to school even if I 'didn't like it' my parents would go to prison and it would be my fault. So I pushed myself back to school, even against my parents wishes when they felt I should have continued with home education when i had a spell of it before high school, because I was scared of being taken off them, and scared of getting them into trouble for trying to protect me. I also stopped talking to them because to my childish logic, I had to protect my parents from what was happening to me, and if they didn't know about it, they couldn't get into trouble. And as previously said those I did tell about the chest pains etc. all very clearly related to ME, immediately slapped 'school phobia' on it and basically pushed me to get 'over' and 'get past' my 'fears' while trying to dig around to find out what I was 'afraid' of in the first place. Obviously I didn't have answers because I wasn't afraid of school, I was ill and it just got worse at school! But trying to explain that resulted in them taking it as confirmation of 'anxiety symptoms' and trying to get to the bottom of my 'phobia', so round, and round and round we went, with them unwilling to consider anything else and loosing patience with me. Not helpful, supportive or understanding, confusing, distressing and made it all the more scary.

As a result I wound up isolating myself while poorly and with a lot of emotional issues, I don't often talk about it but wound up attempting suicide aged 11 because it was just getting so bad. Naturally to those who didn't believe there was anything wrong because they couldn't see anything wrong, although how they could fail to see the massive circles under my eyes, the grey/ pale face, the weakness and difficulties I was having stay in upright and awake etc. is slightly beyond me, but there you go! But for those people this naturally just confirmed to them that all of my problems were purely psychological. We got the usual crap (Scuse, my language but it really was) about how I must have been abused in order to be how I was; I wasn't, and have never been abused by anyone, aside from being unwell my childhood was a happy and emotionally healthy one. It never occurred to these people, that I had physical problems and that the emotional issues I had were because of those physical problems, and that I was struggling emotionally because THEY, as professionals of various sorts, were creating a problem out of a problem, rather than helping to find solutions. Tunnel vision is not the phrase. As you say 'if I can't see it and easily understand it then it's easier to say it doesn't exist and blame the child/ and or the parents'.

I'm sorry that you had similar issues, Alex, and sadly I know we aren't alone. It never ceases to amaze or appall me that my experiences weren't just some weird, nightmarish fluke and other people suffered, and still do in ways that are even worse than what we went through as a family. Im sorry to divert the thread talking so much about personal experiences, I didn't mean to write so much, like I said I suppose it's brought back incredulity and anger relating to my own experiences, especially as a former member of AYME. As I said as a former member with such experience I find it very disheartening, but I am sorry to have diverted the thread by talking so much about my own experience.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
@Debbie23, there are reasons why I am so anti-psychobabble. Your history exemplifies the issues. I wish you never had to go through that.

In a way you were abused, by the psychologists and the school system that tried to force a psych diagnosis on you rather than admit you were sick. That is something very hard for children to understand. Its bad enough for adults.
 

Keith Geraghty

Senior Member
Messages
491
im sure there's a chairperson who would ultimately approve all publications, particularly ones of this magnitude going out to many GPs.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
AYME has responded to my email:

So all of their conclusions are based on a single study which might not even have been reviewed yet. I smell heavy spin coming our way from that paper.

Sounds like a leaflet intended to promote Crawley's work.

By definition their statement is false. They say individuals not children and ME is only diagnosed after 6 months.
 
Messages
2
Hello, I've been asking AYME, as have others, for weeks now to give me the info they've based the leaflet on but they haven't. They keep responding to me on Twitter to tell me they're "really shocked" I havent had a response or the info but I know I'm not the only one. Has anyone had this info as I am trying to find something that can help my child!
Thank you.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Hello, I've been asking AYME, as have others, for weeks now to give me the info they've based the leaflet on but they haven't. They keep responding to me on Twitter to tell me they're "really shocked" I havent had a response or the info but I know I'm not the only one. Has anyone had this info as I am trying to find something that can help my child!
AYME and AfME aren't reliable sources of good information, and probably not worth bothering with.

Tymes Trust is specifically aimed at helping children with ME and their families, and it looks like their website at http://www.tymestrust.org/ has links to some good pamphlets they've made.
 
Messages
63
Location
Oxfordshire, England
Having had two kids with ME I joined ayme for the parents forum, which was a
lifeline for several years. Unfortunately once Crawley came on board most of the more helpful pages on the website disappeared and over time it became more focussed on their version of activity management, which is target driven (I've not found any literature to support that approach with children). when this leaflet came out I queried it with them and managed to get a response, probably because I'd previously queried other irrelevant research they were citing (misquoting) to give astonishing recovery rates for children on the activity management page. (They withdrew that statement after I complained.)

They said it is from a forthcoming paper they 'hope will be published this year'. This was months ago and so far I've not seen any such paper appear. I did point out that it's not best practice to make claims and not at least say the research is forthcoming. I have concluded they either don't care or they don't understand the importance of basing claims on relevant research. The paper cited in the footnote is for a statement in the second paragraph that is hardly controversial. So why they included that reference and none to the headline claims is beyond me.

The advice on the back seems to be from Dr Phil, who is part of Crawley's team at Bath.

Quite a few of the families on the forum are seen at Bath, with mixed results, certainly we haven't seen stunning recoveries to match the headline claims. My children were not seen at Bath for a number of reasons, instead we practiced pacing and the children have had good outcomes after several years of being poorly, we were very lucky as there are no guarantees.

The AYME forum is very helpful, and runs without interference from on high, lots of recommendations come up to check out tymes trust for advice, particularly with education issues.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
They said it is from a forthcoming paper they 'hope will be published this year'. This was months ago and so far I've not seen any such paper appear. I did point out that it's not best practice to make claims and not at least say the research is forthcoming.
I've tweeted them regarding their response to the complaints. I was not impressed with either citing something which 1) is not yet peer reviewed, and 2) cannot be read to assess the validity of the claims based upon it.

I also expressed my displeasure with their little note describing the objections as basically coming from a small amount of people who don't understand how science works. It's a patronizing and dismissive (and wrong) attitude.
 
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user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
Quite a few of the families on the forum are seen at Bath, with mixed results, certainly we haven't seen stunning recoveries to match the headline claims. My children were not seen at Bath for a number of reasons, instead we practiced pacing and the children have had good outcomes after several years of being poorly, we were very lucky as there are no guarantees.

Esther Crawley declared that she had cured my child (who was bed bound at the time) of CFS and claimed that she was ill now with a dissociative disorder due to the stress of being ill. She then tried to get a local CAMHS consultant to diagnose PRS and lock my daughter up in a psych ward. (I have covert recordings somewhere)

Earlier we had problems with child protection due to a different CAMHS consultant who decided my daughter must have an eating disorder but was too ill to go to an appointment. (She was struggling to eat as she felt sick all the time). At that point the Bath service disappeared and didn't help (Crawley is reported as supporting the action but to be fair to her the social worker twisted everything that was recorded). We tried to get help from AYME who initially seemed like they would help but when the discovered Crawley was involved their help was to contact the citizens advice bureau. The Tymes trust helped a lot as they had a very good social worker on their advice board and they also put us in touch with Nigel Speight helped then or perhaps later when we needed medical advice.

So I would be very careful of the Bath service.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
I've tweeted them regarding their response to the complaints. I was not impressed with either citing something which 1) is not yet peer reviewed, and 2) cannot be read to assess the validity of the claims based upon it.

I also expressed my displeasure with their little note describing the objections as basically coming from a small amount of people who don't understand how science works. It's a patronizing and dismissive (and wrong) attitude.
You should point them at Coynes latest blog on the NHS article I think the issues discussed there cover some of that and also some of Crawley's behaviour in trying to dismiss patients raising concerns as harassers.