Krebs cycle and supplementation to support

[sianrecovery]

Does anyone have any recomendations on supplements to support energy? I take ribose, Q10, L Carnite, gluthathione, DHEA, tyrosine at the minute - I was looking at the Chronicity formulations which seem to have an all in one energy support - its expensive - anyone got any experience?

 

[richvank]

Does anyone have any recomendations on supplements to support energy? I take ribose, Q10, L Carnite, gluthathione, DHEA, tyrosine at the minute - I was looking at the Chronicity formulations which seem to have an all in one energy support - its expensive - anyone got any experience?

Hi, sianrecovery.

I suggest that the best way to support energy in ME/CFS is to lift the partial block in the methylation cycle. If you want details, you can find a video and slides here:

http://iaomt.media.fnf.nu/2/skovde_2011_me_kroniskt_trotthetssyndrom/$%7Bweburl%7D

Rich

 

[sianrecovery]

thanks Rich, am going to do the protocol

 

[rydra_wong]

I had my CoQ10 measured via one of those organix acid tests and even though I was taking 100 mg CoQ10 every day for the past 15 years, I was deficient. I concluded I cannot convert ubiquinone to ubiquinol (active form) and switched to that (which is pricier). I have not run the test again to see if it fixed it ($$). The form of CoQ10 is important!

I assume you meant L carnitine above? You can also get a blood test for that. I make enough thanks to Fredd's protocol. You need methyls to make carnitine. I did not know tyrosine was needed for the Kreb cycle or related to energy production? It fits in my case though and I am starting to supplement (as a way to curb cheese cravings as cheese is high in tyrosine and I am low in it!).

I take DHEA and pregnenolone. The DHEA makes a huge difference to blood pressure, panic (both zapped), and to get-up-and-go. I took it from the word go though so never experienced much hormone waning fatigue. I suspect that anyone who is experiencing symptoms that arose over 40 for females (when hormones are most waning, although they can wane from 30 on), then DHEA+pregnenolone will help a lot and should be tried first as they are the top of the chain! Hormones as SO powerful! Trying to fight against them is swimming upstream! Make them work for you!

Be careful with glutathione....I don't know - maybe you know things about it I don't, but Fredd has severe setbacks of long duration (6 months or more) to his methylation with NAC (whose purpose is raising glutathione). I wouldn't take it. I do take a small dose of milk thistle which raises glutathione (but I only take 1/3 daily dose). It does not harm my methylation which at least on a gross level is correct based on homocysteine test and ab12 organic acid test. I am a big advocate of testing to see where you are. I think you can't control what you can't measure.

I am interested in this topic but can't think of anything to add to your list. I hope someone else has something new to add!

 

[rydra_wong]

General Kreb cycle stuff also includes
magnesium, niacin, malic acid, potassium, and vitamin C (not on your list).

I assumed you were asking about more advanced stuff than that but I thought to cover all bases I should list them. These and other "BASIC" Kreb cycle metabolites can be purchased in a single pill and it is typically sold for those with blood sugar issues.

Niacin is used 3 times in the Kreb cycle so whatever form of B3 you take is highly important to it (does not have to be niacin, can be niacinamide). It is commonly deficient as people are commonly deficient in B vitamins due to junk food diets.

Magnesium is commonly deficient and nutritionists are now saying people may need it in a 1:1 ratio with calcium (instead of a 1:2) ratio. I am not so sure about this -- John Johnson at ithyroid.com thinks that this ratio depends on your thyroid and that if you are hyperthyroid you need the 1:1 ratio but the 1:2 ratio if not. I take it in 1:1 ratio for reasons too long to go into on this topic. Magnesium is the central ion of chlorophyll and the average American eats fewer than 3 fruits and veggies per day. I know nurses who swear by a magnesium product called "Calm" for restoring energy. I prefer to take my magnesium in a pill with calcium citrate.
malic acid (malate) is from apples. I do not know where else it is from or how hard it is to make, but they did used to say 'an apple a day...'

Potassium. It is shocking to find but NHAINES II, the big American dietary survey, found that one of the top 5 sources of potassium in the American diet is coffee! So if you do not eat your 7-9 fruits and veggies everyday needed for health (according to the FoodPyramid) and rely on coffee for potassum as does the average American, then later find you can no longer tolerate coffee (maybe due to adrenal problems, or just due to waning DHEA with age) then you can EASILY be potassium deficient, which will affect energy levels. (Been there, done that). Fredd had severe potassium deficiencies develop when he started up his methylation protocol due to pathways that were not working now functioning and requiring potassium. I do not recall his symptoms but they were severe and he was tested and proved that it was a potassium deficiency. I know I have had potassium deficiencies on and off my whole life becaause one of the things that will cause them is low blood sugar (you lose so much potassium it takes 6 bananas to replace it). The way *I* feel from low potassium is so jittery I can't sit still, and so irritable I can't stand to be touched...'can't stand to be in my skin.'

Some basic Kreb products:
http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Krebs-Cycle-Chelates-100-Tablets/2131?at=0
http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Krebs-Magnesium-Potassium-Chelates-60-Tablets/2133?at=0
I am low in chromium and vanadium so I have taken such products from time to time but I have settled on a multi vitamin for that stuff now and I take extra Vitamin C (2 grams), cal:mag (1g) and potassium (I take powdered potassium glycinate - 1 ts. in a bottle of Vitamin Water per day for an extra 500mg - it takes my blood pressure down the last 5% to be normal (after DHEA takes it down 95%)) I have always taken a high dose B vitamins every day.

 

[aprilk1869]

I did not know tyrosine was needed for the Kreb cycle or related to energy production? It fits in my case though and I am starting to supplement (as a way to curb cheese cravings as cheese is high in tyrosine and I am low in it!).

Tyrosine is needed for making thyroid hormones which in turn are needed by the krebs cycle.

 

[SaraM]

Hi Rydra, Do you mind if I ask how much DHEA and Preg you take daily?

 

[rydra_wong]

SaraM

I take 75mg DHEA and 30mg pregnenolone daily. I researched it before I did this. This is a very high dose for a female. Most women do well on "somewhat less" than 50mg/day of DHEA. Fredd takes 100mg pregnenolone and 25mg DHEA which is a more reasonable protocol. But it flat out will not work for me. I am intolerant to the pregnenolone. I am intolerant to lower DHEA. DHEA only stays in the system for 20 hours, so whatever dose you take you need to stagger it. There are a bazillion studies on people age 50+ taking 50mg DHEA. The studies make me want to shoot those researchers because they only study one thing at a time but you are supposed to take pregnenolone also to make progesterone (but it can also make DHEA) and there aren't the studies out there to tell you what the combined dose should be. There are studies showing 100mg DHEA helps depression but nothing like the number of studies of the 50mg dose. I don't like being an outlier, but it is what works for me.

I am currently pursuing bioidentical hormone replacement injected pellets (last 6 months!) and my doctor wants me to dial down the DHEA as a result. I was able to dial down to 50mg (I have 25mg pills, so not sure if I could have done say 35mg) but I have been using flea preparations on my cats which is whacking my adrenal gland and I had to go back to 75mg DHEA AND a 300mg adrenal extract by Nutricology to even begin to stop shaking from severe low blood sugar. I hope it corrects itself before I have to take new labs and get my doctor riled up at me!

I should caution that DHEA IS hormone replacement and I take all the precautions that implies. I get full hormone labs yearly at Meridian Valley Labs (home of Dr. Jonathon Wright, bioidentical HRT pioneer) through www.lef.org (this lab shows every single estrogen metabolite so you can easily spot a trend toward cancer). (Here is one of the meaasures this lab provides: http://meridianvalleylab.com/hormon...tests/urinary-216a-estrogen-metabolite-ratio/) I take www.lef.org broccoli supplements,vitamin D (7000 mg/day), selenium (and pregnenolone) to ward off cancer. I am unable to take iodine which is important to ward off cancer (and this concerns me but I haven't figured out how to get out of the sensitive-to-iodine state yet). One should take calcium-d-glucarate unless one knows one makes enough glucarate but I am falling down on this - as I do not supplement and never tested. This is used to get rid of excess estrogen. Still the doctors love me because my hormone profile is so excellent due to the above supplements.

 

[SaraM]

Rydra

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. My lab tests imply I have lots of problems when it comes to hormones(very low dhea, very low cortisol, higher than normal estrogen , large uterine fibroids and facial hair), so I definitely need to do something about it. I am already taking Iodine and Calcium D Glucarate with no problem and they are helping me with breasts pain.

 

[rydra_wong]

Sara, I also had large uterine fibroids - 3 operations for it over time. I had high estrogen but no one ever told me it was too high. IMHO I never felt better than when I had estrogen in my system -- as opposed to severe pms of course. I do not know if you can afford $300 labs but the Meridian Valley labs are on sale for $300 every spring through Life Extension. Here is the link: http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/ItemLCM4098/Urinary-Hormone-Profile-24-hour-Urine-Test.html (You have to be a member - spend $60/year with them - the 1st year it goes to cover their huge doorstopper book which they mail you and which everyone you know will want to borrow so you seldom have it at hand. You get to call one of their doctors to ask questions at any time as a member. Their health advisors are helpful also.

Someone here on another thread said that someone (spitfire?) may have the hormonal type synptoms she does due to too much copper. Estrogen helps you absorb copper so it is possible. It is also possible to get too much zinc and thus too little copper. So don't assume. I got a hair analysis from www.tracelements.com (which does not wash the hair samples so is more accurate) and it showed I am low copper (but I was not at age 45!). If you are over 50 it is more likely you are low copper, but before that anything is possible and I would check.

Traceelements does not respond to the general public, but only to doctors, so maybe someone knows som eother hair analysis lab that does not wash the hair samples? I would check my copper and zinc levels. Serum copper is a worthless measure because copper is an acute phase reactant -- it varies depending on all kinds of circumstances, like laxative abd medicine use, homonal levels, inflammation, etc. That is why hair testing is the best you can do for copper levels.

I take 1 g. Vitamin E/day and I raraely had breast ain. I had read that woud prevent it but that is not why I take high dose E.

Your DHEA peaks at age 30 so it is declinig and generally restoring youthful hormone levels makes peole feel better. A doctor would demand you get a baseline hormon level test and then another after tinkering to verify yu are on the right track. I can't honestly help you any more - I went through the samething and found no solutions. I am taking the DHEA in response to blood pressure suddenly (in one day, and at first during PMS only) going from perfect to 184/117. And also at the same time I developed a forever-panic attack. Basically PMS is menopause forever. DHEA is my defence.

 

[SaraM]

Rydra,
I will probably be able to do the Meridian lab test soon. In my case it is really worth it. My zinc was borderline , but copper level was high normal . The test was done by Spectracel lab . This lab provides the info on the interacelluar level of minerals and vitamins, so it is pretty much accurate. I am also thinking of getting a hair test done, but as you said most labs wash the hair which makes the result somehow unreliable.

 

[sianrecovery]

thank you guys - that is so helpful. I am low in cortisol, progesterone, and oestrogen - the doc treating me, (she's great, but doesnt do the bioidenticals) put me on 10mg DHEA, so I may look into further testing. My ME is undoubtedly connected, among other things, to the fact I am in the perimenopause. Do you have any thoughts on the progestrone cream many people use?
In terms of iodine, I had a big energy turn around with the herb Macca - which Dr Myhill investigated and said she thought it might be because of its high iodine content, ie, a boost for the thyroid - maybe a form in which it is easier to tolerate?
thanks again

 

[rydra_wong]

I wanted to post this and can't figure out where -- it is too hard to find posts here - like to find where people were saying DHEA did not help them. But since you take iodine and might try DHEA I will post here.

A year ago I was hyperthyroid and here is what I wrote:
----
I also noticed that when I cut my protein way back (maybe 20 mg) my head felt clearer. I still have a thyroid problem which is generating extra oxidants and BH4 is very sensitive to oxidation. I am hoping when my thyroid settles down I could go back to a normal protein consumption, which is not high, but normal. I am glad to hear things are improving for you.
----
And also I wrote this:

btw, I had to stop methyl B12 for a day and a half because hyperthyroid made me feel like a hornet;s nest was in my head, or maybe a belt sander. So I waited to get some of the iodine out of my system then started back up today. When I stopped methylB12, the mosquito bites I had started itching so I wanted to rip my skin off (normal for me in the past). ONE HOUR after I resume methylB12, they stopped itching. So...not sure why y'all have been reporting months of startup or resumption symptoms - it started up immediately.

----
I guess that clip presumes you know a lot of stuff: low BH4 causes high blood pressure, hyperthyroid causes lots and lots of oxidants to flood the body, which destroys BH4, low BH4 also causes inability to eliminate ammonia, the byproduct of protein consumption. You also need magnesium to eliminate ammonia. Methylcobalamine is needed to make the thyroid hormone T3 and so is iodine. If I were in a hyperthyroid state (unaware of it because I was not able to break down non-active B12 into methylcobalamin) and then I took methylcobalamine, I would get (did get) a severe hyperthyroid (exciteable) reaction. Many blame the methylcobalamin, but it is in fact not at fault -- it just opened up your blocked methylation pathway which allowed you to find the blocked thyroid pathway.Copper is a cofactor of methionine synthase and insufficient copper can thus cause inadequate methylation (which could be fixed everywhere but in the brain by some high dose of TMG unless mayne you also have BHMT pathway genetic defects as I do -- not sure in that case).

And now to comment:
I want to point out that when you take a supplement to clear up one blocked pathway, you may fall into another blocked pathway (which was inacessible to you until you cleared up the first blockage). So I suspect that many women in this whatever-you=call-it (board?) are copper deficient (as estogen helps us absorb copper and as estrogen wanes it is common for women to become copper deficient). John Johnson at www.ithyroid.com makes a good case for copper deficiency being the underlying cause of hyperthyroid. Look to www.lef.org for good ranges for detecting it as you may be hyperthyroid and fall within "normal" lab ranges (there is no test ofr health to establish normal ranges). Look to www.stopthethyroidmadness.com for a list of tests required to definitively determine the state of the thyroid. If you get a hyper reaction after taking methylcobalamin you may actually be falling into hyperthyroid state. (It is a fallacy that you will only be hyperthyroid if skinny. It is a fallacy that you cannot be hyperthyroid if you are HYPOthyroid - because being hyperthyroid just means your thyroid can't turn off since it requires methyls to turn off, so as soon as you get a flicker of help from your iodine, you can be thrown into hyperthyroid immediately if you have that problem). I never implicate the tested and proven supplement if it does not work for me -- I look for the next problem. If you can separate out problems you can begin to find your way out.

As to DHEA, I was so busy this last week and let myself get low in many things (I skipped the protocol for 2 days this week as i was in a hurry!) So now I am finding that simply taking DHEA does not actually fix it if I don't have the underlying things in place. But I recognise the feeling -- I am low in calcium and magnesium. These can only be taken slowly or I get the runs. I know there are other forms of magnesium that dont cause this but they have never made a difference to me. So I am taking my cal / mag supplements every half hour and slowly banishing my blood pressure headache and water retention. Someone else would say - oh, this DHEA isn't working. But here's the thing...it is real easy to test this stuff when it affects your blood pressure so I know it does work. I tested everything by taking my blood pressure -- cal/mag lowered it 30 points in only hours (the hours it takes to absorb 1 g w/o the runs) but it will NOT STAY DOWN w/o the DHEA. So they work together. And for all I know there are other things that play in that I frequently take but I have never observed anything else to make a significant difference. If DHEA does not work immediately I recognise the low alkaline minerals feeling and just grab that. My problem is that when I am away from home I often need a supplement I can't just grab and then it is gruesome....

Oh, I include water in that short list of things that get rid of ROS. I think it helps one absorb the alkaline minerals.

 

[rydra_wong]

SaraM

There is no accurate measure of copper status except liver biopsy. I am sure they accurately told you how much copper you have in a specific location but that doesnot correlate to how much you have in your liver which is where it is stored. High serum copper is indicative of inflammation, which surely everyone here with CFS has. Medicine does not agree that hair analysis works, but I have observed that it does for me via www.tracelements.com (I do not know how to get a lost of doctors that use that lab or what other labs do it w/o washing the samples. IMHO if you have any form of osteopenia you are probably low in copper (although you could be liw in calcium, zinc, and or manganese). Charles_w says if you are male and are easily nicked by a razor you are probably low in copper because it is required for cross-linking of collagen and w/o enough you have thin skin. If your hair is going mousy - with colorless strans, you probably have a deficiency of copper. (I am not sure about grey or white hair).

Anyway, you are free to research this yourself on google -- there is no medical concensus on how to measure copper but there are many references to the way it is being done by all the researchers as being useless...There are papers calling for the development of an accurate way to measure copper status.

Well anyway you may not have low copper, but don't assume because of a lab.

 

[rydra_wong]

BTW, thanks April. thyroid hormones interact with a lot of stuff -- I MAY even recal seeing them in the biochemical pathway for dopamine. So that is probably why Life Extension told me that tyrosine would help me raise my dopamine levels which were laid low due to allergies.

If you are interested there is an AWESOME website here which shows all the biochemical pathways in the human body (as well as those in other species under study) to the extend that they are known (al the cofactors and enzymes have not been fleshed out yet, but th ebasic pathways are well known. Here it is:
http://web.expasy.org/pathways
Sorry I meant here: http://web.expasy.org/cgi-bin/pathways/show_thumbnails.pl
Oh, thyroid hormone is used at the point of breaking dopamine down into epinephrine: http://web.expasy.org/cgi-bin/pathways/show_image?H2&left

Happy exploring!