James Coyne: "The illusion you will be able bodied forever and the limits of empathy"

[sarah darwins]

So we should empathise with others´ lack of empathy for us? I hate to blow my own trumpet (I would much rather someone else did) but my take on empathy for ME patients made a lot more sense than this.

Did you write a piece on this, msf? Would like to see it (possibly I already have but you know how it is). Gorra link?

 

[msf]

No, but I think I mentioned it to you once - I guess it wasn´t very memorable!

 

[sarah darwins]

No, but I think I mentioned it to you once - I guess it wasn´t very memorable!

Oh bugger! Sorry. Seriously, my memory's terrible.

But I'm sure I liked it very much!

 

[msf]

Basically my problem with the Coyne take on the lack of empathy for ME patients is that it doesn´t really explain why, for example, my mother did not seem to have much sympathy for me feeling awful all the time a year ago, when I showed sympathy when she got a cold. I guess Coyne would say that it´s because I have experienced a cold, whereas she hasn´t experienced ME. But I don´t think this is a sufficient explanation for this phenomenon, since I am pretty sure I would feel sympathy for her if she had, for example, a kidney stone, although I have no idea what that experience is like. I noticed that my mother was quite sympathetic to my condition for the first couple of weeks I was ill, and then became less so, despite the fact that my symptoms had actually worsened. I think this is because we have evolved to show sympathy for and take care of people who have acute illnesses (since they might get better soon and therefore once again contribute to the group), but not those who have chronic illnesses (since there isn´t much chance they will get better soon and therefore will continue to be a drain on the group´s resources). Looking at it this way helped me to accept this lack of sympathy, since it helped to depersonalize it. Also, when someone does show me some sympathy, I see them as offering it in spite of themselves (or in spite of their genetic make up) and I am therefore less likely to take it for granted.

Of course, if you aren´t satisfied by biological explanations then you probably won´t think that the above is a sufficient explanation of the phenomenon either.

 

[msf]

The other thing that helped both me and my mum with this was me moving out of her house! Again, you could explain this by saying that I ceased to be a drain on her resources, or it could just be that I am a hard person to be around!

 

[sarah darwins]

Basically my problem with the Coyne take on the lack of empathy for ME patients is that it doesn´t really explain why, for example, my mother did not seem to have much sympathy for me feeling awful all the time a year ago, when I showed sympathy when she got a cold. I guess Coyne would say that it´s because I have experienced a cold, whereas she hasn´t experienced ME. But I don´t think this is a sufficient explanation for this phenomenon, since I am pretty sure I would feel sympathy for her if she had, for example, a kidney stone, although I have no idea what that experience is like. I noticed that my mother was quite sympathetic to my condition for the first couple of weeks I was ill, and then became less so, despite the fact that my symptoms had actually worsened. I think this is because we have evolved to show sympathy and take care of people who have acute illnesses (since they might get better soon and therefore once again contribute to the group), but not those who have chronic illnesses (since there isn´t much chance they will get better soon and therefore will continue to be a drain on the group´s resources). Looking at it this way helped me to accept this lack of sympathy, since it helped to depersonalize it. Also, when someone does show me some sympathy, I see them as offering it in spite of themselves (or in spite of their genetic make up) and I am therefore less likely to take it for granted.

Of course, if you aren´t satisfied by biological explanations then you probably won´t think that the above is a sufficient explanation of the phenomenon either.

I don't think I had heard that before (unless I was having an especially bad brain day) but I like it. It does make sense to me, especially thinking about my own mother's reactions. She couldn't be more on my side in general, but she struggles for sympathy over this illness. I think your explanation makes some sense of that. It's possible, too, that from her perspective to be too sympathetic makes it real, and if it's real then it's not going to go away and I'm not magically going to be my old self tomorrow, and that's a thought she can hardly bear.

 

[msf]

Yes, there´s definitely some ostriching going on too.

 

[JohnCB]

Basically my problem with the Coyne take on the lack of empathy for ME patients is that it doesn´t really explain why, for example, my mother did not seem to have much sympathy for me feeling awful all the time a year ago, when I showed sympathy when she got a cold. I guess Coyne would say that it´s because I have experienced a cold, whereas she hasn´t experienced ME. But I don´t think this is a sufficient explanation for this phenomenon, since I am pretty sure I would feel sympathy for her if she had, for example, a kidney stone, although I have no idea what that experience is like. I noticed that my mother was quite sympathetic to my condition for the first couple of weeks I was ill, and then became less so, despite the fact that my symptoms had actually worsened. I think this is because we have evolved to show sympathy for and take care of people who have acute illnesses (since they might get better soon and therefore once again contribute to the group), but not those who have chronic illnesses (since there isn´t much chance they will get better soon and therefore will continue to be a drain on the group´s resources). Looking at it this way helped me to accept this lack of sympathy, since it helped to depersonalize it. Also, when someone does show me some sympathy, I see them as offering it in spite of themselves (or in spite of their genetic make up) and I am therefore less likely to take it for granted.

This is hugely complex, both in terms of how and whether people empathise and how we react to these things. I'm not even going to try and sort out my own feelings in writing. Thank you for going down this path yourself.

It isn't simply about expressed or understood empathy. I have a good friend, a work colleague back in the day. All these years later he still visits and we share a coffee. He has never tried to understand the illness, at least not in terms of asking many questions or expressing an opinion. He simply accepts me as I am and shares time with me. I don't have to give him any explanations. He phones when he is in the area and asks if I am up to a visit. If not, he says "another time then." When he does visit we talk about whats happening in the workplace and all sorts of other things which are just ordinary conversation. It works for me, not having to give bulletins and explanations. It's just simple friendship.

 

[msf]

Yes, that can work too - it´s people who aren´t interested in the illness and won´t accept that you can´t do as much as you did before that are the problem.

 

[Richard7]

I have been on the other side of this.

I had a friend who suffered from a chronic illness (mental) for a decade or so and had no real understanding of his problems. We just met up for lunch or to watch a movie or something every couple of months.

For me it was kind of shattering, when we first met we were teenagers and I was used to him being this strangely slow and carefully considered voice in the group. We would prattle on excitedly then he would roll in with a slow carefully considered and worded response to a topic we were just about to drop.

When he was ill he had the same manner but he could not handle groups and his statements were no longer deep or well worded. So I would often go home and kind of morn him.

There were some good days, with good conversations, but most were not, and I'll admit that I turned up more out of a sense of duty for the friend he had been than the person he then was.

And I can understand why others might not be willing to do so.

 

[JohnCB]

There were some good days, with good conversations, but most were not, and I'll admit that I turned up more out of a sense of duty for the friend he had been than the person he then was.

Duty is much underrated. What you did was good. That you continued even if you got little out of it directly is a good example and it demonstrates a strength of character.