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James Coyne blog on "uninterpretable" PACE trial is #11 in PLOS One's 2015 top reads

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780

Horton wrote an article defending Roy Meadow.

Sir Samuel Roy Meadow (born 1933) is a retired British paediatrician, who first came to public prominence following a 1977 academic paper describing a phenomenon dubbed Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy (MSbP). For his work, ‘The Captive Mother’, he was awarded the prestigious Donald Paterson prize of the British Paediatric Association in 1968; in 1980 when a second professorial chair in paediatrics was inaugurated at St James’s University Hospital, Leeds, he was invited to accept it; in 1998, he was knighted for services to child health. [1] His work became controversial, particularly arising from the consequences of a belief he stated in a book, ABC of Child Abuse,[2] that, in a single family, “one sudden infant death is a tragedy, two is suspicious and three is murder, until proved otherwise“. This became known to some as "Meadow's Law" and was influential in the thinking of UK social workers and child protection agencies, such as the NSPCC.[3]

Meadow's reputation was severely damaged after he appeared as an expert witness for the prosecution in several trials, in at least one of which his testimony played a crucial part in a wrongful conviction for murder. The British General Medical Council (GMC) struck him from the British Medical Register after he was found to have offered “erroneous” and “misleading” evidence in the Sally Clark case.[4] Clark was a lawyer wrongly convicted in 1999 of the murder of her two baby sons, largely on the basis of Meadow's evidence; her conviction was quashed in 2003 after she had spent three years in jail.[5] Sally Clark never recovered from the experience, developed a number of serious psychiatric problems including serious alcohol dependency and died in 2007 from alcohol poisoning.[6]

In 1993 Meadow gave expert testimony at the trial of Beverley Allitt, a paediatric nurse accused (and later found guilty) of murdering several of her patients.[14]

Meadow went on to testify in many other trials, many of which concerned cases previously diagnosed as cot death or sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Meadow was convinced that many apparent cot deaths were in fact the result of physical abuse.

Families that had suffered more than one cot death were to attract particular attention: "There is no evidence that cot deaths runs in families", said Meadow, "but there is plenty of evidence that child abuse does". His rule of thumb was that "unless proven otherwise, one cot death is tragic, two is suspicious and three is murder".[15] Although this dictum is believed not to have originated from Meadow's own lips, it has become almost universally known as Meadow's law.

In 2003 Dr James Le Fanu wrote to The Lancet pointing out the self-agrandisment within the scientifically unfounded circular logic that Meadow used to promote the weight (and thereby influence upon juries) that his own opinions carried.[16]

Cot death trial controversies
This trend was to reach its apogee in 1999 when solicitor Sally Clark was tried for allegedly murdering her two babies. Her elder son Christopher had died at the age of 11 weeks, and her younger son Harry at 8 weeks. Medical opinion was divided on the cause of death, and several leading paediatricians testified that the deaths were probably natural. Experts acting for the prosecution initially diagnosed that the babies had been shaken to death, but three days before the trial began several of them changed their collective opinion to smothering.

By the time he gave evidence at Sally Clark's trial, Roy Meadow claimed to have found 81 cot deaths which were in fact murder, but he had destroyed the data.[17] Amongst the prosecution team was Meadow, whose evidence included a soundbite which was to provoke much argument: he testified that the odds against two cot deaths occurring in the same family was 73,000,000:1, a figure which he erroneously obtained by squaring the observed ratio of live-births to cot deaths in affluent non-smoking families (approximately 8,500:1). In addition he extrapolated his erroneous figures stating that the 1 in 73,000,000 incidence was only likely to occur once every hundred years in England Scotland and Wales. He further illustrated his miscalculation by stating that the very unlikely odds were the same as successfully backing to win an 80 to 1 outsider in The Grand National for four successive years.[18] The jury returned a 10/2 majority verdict of "guilty".

Statistical controversy
Meadow's 73,000,000:1 statistic was paraded in the popular press [19][20] and received criticism from professional statisticians over its calculation. The Royal Statistical Society issued a press release stating that the figure had "no statistical basis", and that the case was "one example of a medical expert witness making a serious statistical error."[21] The Society's president, Professor Peter Green, later wrote an open letter of complaint to the Lord Chancellor about these concerns.[22]

The statistical criticisms were threefold: firstly, Meadow was accused of applying the so-called prosecutor's fallacy in which the probability of "cause given effect" (i.e. the true likelihood of a suspect's innocence) is confused with that of "effect given cause" (the probability that an innocent person would lose two children in this manner). In reality, these quantities can only be equated when the a priori likelihood of the alternative hypothesis, in this case murder, is close to certainty. Murder (especially double murder) is itself a rare event, whose probability must be weighed against that of the null hypothesis (natural death).[21]

The second criticism concerned the ecological fallacy: Meadow's calculation had assumed that the cot death probability within any single family was the same as the aggregate ratio of cot deaths to births for the entire affluent-non-smoking population. No account had been taken of conditions specific to individual families (such as the hypothesised cot death gene) which might make some more vulnerable than others.[23] Finally, Meadow assumed that SIDS cases within families were statistically independent. The occurrence of one cot death makes it likely that the family in question has such conditions, and the probability of subsequent deaths is therefore greater than the group average.[21] (Estimates are mostly in the region of 1:100.)

Some mathematicians have estimated that taking all these factors into account, the true odds may have been greater than 2:1 in favour of the death not being murder, and hence demonstrating Clark's innocence.[24]

The perils of allowing non-statisticians to present unsound statistical arguments were expressed in a British Medical Journal (BMJ) editorial by Stephen Watkins, Director of Public Health for Stockport, claiming that "defendants deserve the same protection as patients."[23]
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
another case of Voodoo statistics being used to blame victims and the data is missing.

By the time he gave evidence at Sally Clark's trial, Roy Meadow claimed to have found 81 cot deaths which were in fact murder, but he had destroyed the data
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
another case where a questionable theory caused a lot of harm and some influential folks at the Lancet tried to excuse the behaviour.

Note that the person here is a "Sir" as well.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)66798-0/abstract
From Wikepedia:
In 2003 Dr James Le Fanu wrote to The Lancet pointing out the self-agrandisment within the scientifically unfounded circular logic that Meadow used to promote the weight (and thereby influence upon juries) that his own opinions carried.[
Seems oddly familiar.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
another case where a questionable theory caused a lot of harm and some influential folks at the Lancet tried to excuse the behaviour.

Note that the person here is a "Sir" as well.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)66798-0/abstract

I know very little about that case, but it's interesting how that editorial seems to be built on arguements from selected authority. What Meadow had said in court seemed pretty indefensible, and while we cannot know what influence it had on jurors, the Lancet preferred the claims of one appeals judgement over the other:

The court accepted that there was an error in the way statistical evidence had been handled at the trial. That error did provide substance to one of the grounds for appeal. But after reviewing the possibility that the error rendered the convictions unsafe, the Court argued that, “If there had been no error in relation to statistics at the trial, we are satisfied that the jury would still have convicted on each count. In the context of the trial as a whole, the point on statistics was of minimal significance and there is no possibility of the jury having been misled so as to reach verdicts that they might not otherwise have reached”.


Despite the marginal importance of the statistical evidence in the appeal and while noting that the effect of Meadow's evidence “will never be known”, the court claimed, on noticeably weak grounds, that “it may have had a major effect” on the jury's thinking, even though the trial judge had attempted to downplay its value.

I thought this bit was funny:

Yet in such an instance, society also needs to guard against any crude and oversimplistic settling of scores. One needs to judge the expert according to his or her good faith in assisting the court, and according to our own deep humility about our own ignorance. The frustration and fury expressed by some when experts cannot deliver foolproof explanations for tragic mysterious events must not be allowed to encourage the unjust punishment of one individual who has tried his best to serve the court.

Meadow was going beyond the evidence, and downplaying uncertainty. That was the problem, not that he was unable to explain with certainty, but that he was not clear about his own lack of knowledge, in a trial that 'settled scores' by putting someone behind bars. Why should good faith be assumed for experts, over those they are testifying against? Horton often gives the impression of thinking that those involved in science of medicine are a rather special breed, and deserve better treatment than the rest of us because of this.
 

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
Horton as priest and gatekeeper to the temple of higher knowledge. A special knowledge that can only be accessed and understood by the initiated. Science as religion. Because religion invokes a higher authority and science is more egalitarian.
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
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2,677
Location
Germany
One needs to judge the expert according to his or her good faith in assisting the court, and according to our own deep humility about our own ignorance.
I quite agree. When a self-proclaimed expert invents a new psychological condition (MSBP) or psychologizes a physical condition (ME) for the purposes of self-aggrandizement and career advancement without a thought for the suffering of those falsely imprisoned or given harmful treatment, they display a complete lack of good faith and zero humility about their own ignorance, and should be judged accordingly.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
The Fixated Threat Assessment Centre (FTAC) was quietly set up to identify individuals who they claim pose a direct threat to VIPs including the Prime Minister, the Cabinet and the Royal Family.

It was given sweeping powers to check more than 10,000 suspects’ files to identify mentally unstable potential “killers and stalkers” with a fixation against public figures.

The team’s psychiatrists and psychologists then have the power to order treatment – including forcibly detaining suspects in secure psychiatric units.

Using these powers, the unit can legally detain people for an indefinite period without trial, criminal charges or even evidence of a crime being committed and with very limited rights of appeal.
http://akashictimes.co.uk/uk-enforces-law-which-bans-public-from-criticising-the-govt/
 

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
potential "killers and stalkers"

Not people who have done something wrong. People who psychiatrists and psychologists believe could be doing something wrong in the future.

Sounds like a mechanism to indimidate and silence critics.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
You don't need to actually do anything. Thought crimes are enough.
 
Last edited:

sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK

I thought this must be a joke, or something from the 'conspiracy web'. I'm a little shocked to find it's real

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixated_Threat_Assessment_Centre

and even that the FTAC "won an Association of Chief Police Officers’ Excellence Award in 2009".

This bit is scary:

In their view [researchers at FTAC], a logical further development would be the modification of the role of NHS police-liaison psychiatric nurses, so that they become embedded in police responses at borough or county level in order to perform an enabling role, to the benefit of individual patients and of public protection.

You do not have to say anything, but anything you do say may be used as part of a psychiatric evaluation ....
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Fabricated-or-induced-illness/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Fabricated or induced illness (FII) is a rare form of child abuse. It occurs when a parent or carer, usually the child’s biological mother, exaggerates or deliberately causes symptoms of illness in the child.
FII is also known as Munchausen's syndrome by proxy.Munchausen's syndrome, also known as factitious disorder, is a condition where a person pretends to be ill or causes illness or injury to themselves.

In over 90% of reported cases of FII, the child’s mother is responsible for the abuse. However, cases have been reported in which the father, foster parent, grandparent, guardian, or a healthcare or childcare professional was responsible.

Motivation

It's not fully understood why FII occurs. In cases where the mother is responsible, it could be that the mother enjoys the attention of playing the role of a "caring mother". A large number of mothers involved in cases of FII had a previous history of unresolved psychological and behavioural problems, such as a history of self-harming, or drug or alcohol misuse, or have experienced the death of another child.

A high proportion of mothers involved in FII have been found to have so-called "somatoform disorders", where they experience multiple, recurrent physical symptoms. A proportion of these mothers also have Munchausen's Syndrome.

A high percentage of mothers with Munchausen by proxy are also somatizers according to doctors.

What if they are not and just have undiagnosed physical illness that is partially genetic, affecting their children as well ? Many here believe that somatization is BS. If that is BS how likely is it that the munchausen diagnosis is correct in these cases ? How many mothers are in jail or lost their children?
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
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2,677
Location
Germany
Fabricated or induced illness (FII) is a rare form of child abuse. It occurs when a parent or carer, usually the child’s biological mother, exaggerates or deliberately causes symptoms of illness in the child. FII is also known as Munchausen's syndrome by proxy.Munchausen's syndrome, also known as factitious disorder, is a condition where a person pretends to be ill or causes illness or injury to themselves.
I'm leaning towards the opinion that fabricated or induced diagnosis is an increasingly common form of patient abuse. Munchausen's syndrome is ok if we're talking about the plot of a Hitchcock film I suppose, but very harmful if given any credence amongst psychiatrists or in courts.
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
What if they are not and just have undiagnosed physical illness that is partially genetic, affecting their children as well ? Many here believe that somatization is BS. If that is BS how likely is it that the munchausen diagnosis is correct in these cases ?
To convict in a criminal case a jury has to be convinced "beyond reasonable doubt" or be "virtually certain" that the accused did it. That's a high standard of proof. MSBP doesn't pass the legal or scientific standard of proof - so why is a psychiatric expert witness allowed to give evidence about a dodgy diagnosis and have their opinion accepted and used as the basis for a conviction? Why do some psychiatrists get to just make up shit and then be given a free pass in medicine and the law?

When scientific expert witnesses on subjects like genetic fingerprinting etc give evidence, the reliability of that evidence is questioned in court and debated in the media. Statistics are quoted and examined. Why is psychiatric evidence given a free pass?
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
Why is psychiatric evidence given a free pass?

Fortunately it isn't anymore. At least in the UK and Australia.

In most legal jurisdictions, doctors are only allowed to give evidence in regard to whether the child is being harmed. They are not allowed to give evidence in regard to the motive. Australia and the UK have established the legal precedent that MSbP does not exist as a medico-legal entity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchausen_syndrome_by_proxy