Iodine supplementation

[PatJ]

Does any of that help explain your negative thougts as a result of iodosupplementation?

Yes it does. Thank you for the detailed explanation.

Maybe silymarin/milk thistle would also help reduce mood related symptoms, based on this comment from Gondwanaland in another thread:
"When I realized my mood swings were due to PMS I took 2 drops of silymarin extract to help with estrogen metabolism in the liver and it was gone."

 

[Jigsaw]

Yes it does. Thank you for the detailed explanation.

Maybe silymarin/milk thistle would also help reduce mood related symptoms, based on this comment from Gondwanaland in another thread:
"When I realized my mood swings were due to PMS I took 2 drops of silymarin extract to help with estrogen metabolism in the liver and it was gone."

Silymarin DEFINITELY helps the liver detox everything.

Oestrogen is conjugated by the liver. Milk Thistle will certainly help.

 

[CCC]

Silymarin DEFINITELY helps the liver detox everything.

I've just posted somewhere else that milk thistle seems to drive folate demand - I'm assuming that's liver related?

 

[Jigsaw]

I've just posted somewhere else that milk thistle seems to drive folate demand - I'm assuming that's liver related?

Hi @CCC ,

I really don't know what, if any, impact folate has on the liver.

Lots of substances generated by the liver in order to keep us safe from toxic harm, and some nutrient and hormone conversion enzymes do come from the liver, but I genuinely have no idea if the liver is responsible for converting different forms of folate into more active forms (if it is, my liver doens't like methylfolate!)


Confess I don't understand how or why taking MT should increase folate useage.
In what way did you experience folate demand whilst taking MT? How long were you taking MT for,and at what dose?

 

[PatJ]

I've just posted somewhere else that milk thistle seems to drive folate demand - I'm assuming that's liver related?

I really don't know what, if any, impact folate has on the liver.

Some interesting information from this blog post titled "Understanding how liver function is affected by methylation and toxicity"

Folic acid increases bile flow, bile acid synthesis from cholesterol, and bile acid excretion via feces, thus provoking a decrease in serum and hepatic cholesterol. However none of these actions were observed in supplemented control rats. This, therefore, could be yet another beneficial effect of folic acid on alcoholic patients.
...

The liver contains about 50% of the body stores of folate.
...

Doesn’t it stand to reason, that if you have a deficiency of folate, you’ve got a liver that may not function properly? I think it also explains why increasing my folate intake, has made me feel so crappy – if my liver starts producing more bile, I’m immediately increasing my detox rate. I think that’s why it makes me feel like I’ve got the flu.

Based on those statements maybe milk thistle's ability to help the liver means that it then requires more folate to support its improved functioning?

 

[Jigsaw]

Some interesting information from this blog post titled "Understanding how liver function is affected by methylation and toxicity"



Based on those statements maybe milk thistle's ability to help the liver means that it then requires more folate to support its improved functioning?

Hi Pat,

I think the key to that first statement is the impact of alcohol damage on the liver, and the impact that damage has on folate levels.

Folate deficiency is common in alcohol-induced cirrhosis and fatty liver, and the first part that you quoted seems to be saying that no changes were observed in non-alcohol damaged rat livers, hence saying it indicated that this might therefore apply to alcohol-damaged livers only, and not (otherwise) healthy, non-alcohol damaged livers.

I don't yet see how else folate is linked with the liver, and I still can't yet see how MT would require more folate to work.

Silymarin is antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, stimulates immune function (liver comprises 30% of the immune system) and stops toxins from binding to cell walls. That's why it's a great liver function support.

I really don't see, yet, how taking MT would create a need for extra folate. Folate may well be stored in the liver, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the liver uses it or needs it for healthy functioning. For example, it also stores Vitamin D3, in the form of 25OHD3 too, but that goes on to be converted into calcitriol, which I think happens in the kidneys (and incidentally, requires adequate iodine to make that conversion). I'm not aware of D3 being "needed" by the liver, except in relation to D3's immune system support function, which takes some stress off the liver. But the liver doesn't burn through D3, per se.


The liver does a huge amount of enzyme production, producing enzymes for conversion of nutrients, for conjugating excess hormones, and for neutralising toxins. I'm not yet aware of it having to produce anything in relation to folate, which is why I can't yet understand how helping the liver by supporting its function would require extra folate.


Folate is involved in homocysteine metabolism, in one of the 5 methyl cycle pathways, and homocysteine is dealt with there, not primarily by the liver, as far as I know - none of which means you aren't right in your supposition, there's a huge amount that I don't have knowledge of, and just because I don't know, doesn't mean it isn't so! (Or else I'd be a standard doctor ;-))

However, I have numerous methylation difficulties, as you know, and I've taken MT on and off since c.1998 with none of the issues I get from methylation or B12 protocols. I've only ever found it helpful. I take 1g if I have a bad reaction to foods or other ingested substances that overload my liver's detox capabilities, and it clears the reaction (usually nausea, weakness, headache, cognitive difficulty, sinusitis, rhinitis, migraine if I don't sort things out pdq) within about 40 minutes every time.


But it isn't something I've ever taken daily for a prolonged period of time, and if the liver needed extra folate because of MT, then that's when I'd expect an associated folate deficiency to show up. Because there is a degree of stored folate, it doesn't usually get depleted very fast. If you eat a non-folate diet, it takes several weeks before deficiency is induced.

I'll carry on looking for info about MT burning through folate, and if you can find any refs for the statements you quoted, that would be useful


If it does turn out that MT burns folate, that's going to be a sigificant piece of info for a lot of people Maybe it needs folate for making some of the enzymes, I really don't know. If it does need folate for enzyme production, given that MT stimulates enzyme production, then that would certainly use up folate. That's as close as I can get to understanding if the liver needs extra folate in the presence of Milk Thistle.


J

 

[Jigsaw]

@PatJ

From that blog post - 1.5 G of methylfolate???? Jeeze, I'd be in the nearest psychiatric unit!

 

[Jigsaw]

@PatJ

From that blog post:

So if T3 stimulates liver growth, maybe low thyroid could also cause your liver to slow down its detoxification enough to cause serious health problems. And vice versa? Could a malfunctioning liver could probably give you hypothyroidism? I seem to have all these problems together, so why not.

Hypo t definitely causes sluggish liver function, but I have to say that the idea that poor liver function causes hypo t sounds incredible to me. As in not credible. Do people with liver cancer, or alcoholics, become hypo t?

 

[Jigsaw]

@PatJ

Also, when I take MT, there is no sense of increased detox, in the way of increased headaches, nausea, feeling lousy, etc, in fact it's quite the reverse. I get significant relief from my standard toxicity symptoms. Maybe prolonged daily use would see that happening, but I haven't used it like that so I'm not in a position to comment.

All I can about silymarin is that it gives me great relief when I'm toxic. Bit like a sachet of Resolve for a hangover!

 

[PatJ]

Folate deficiency is common in alcohol-induced cirrhosis and fatty liver, and the first part that you quoted seems to be saying that no changes were observed in non-alcohol damaged rat livers, hence saying it indicated that this might therefore apply to alcohol-damaged livers only, and not (otherwise) healthy, non-alcohol damaged livers.

Good point.

Folate is involved in homocysteine metabolism, in one of the 5 methyl cycle pathways, and homocysteine is dealt with there, not primarily by the liver, as far as I know - none of which means you aren't right in your supposition

My supposition is based on a very shallow, brainfog influenced understanding of methylation and other bodily processes. I tossed the idea out to see what others with more knowledge would think of the idea.

From that blog post - 1.5 G of methylfolate???? Jeeze, I'd be in the nearest psychiatric unit!

When I was on Freddds treatment I was taking 25 G for a few months then settled on 8-12 G per day. My daily dose now is 1.6 G.

The first time I took methylfolate it was like my years-dormant personality started to wake up. Within days my sense of humor returned. It was wonderful. It also gradually eliminated the tired-but-wired feeling I had lived with, constantly, for many years. And it allowed me start sleeping noticeably. It's one of my indispensible supplements.

It's interesting how different our reactions can be. If I took a full capsule of l-carnitine fumarate I would probably get suicidal anxiety.

but I have to say that the idea that poor liver function causes hypo t sounds incredible to me. As in not credible.

He does speculate several times in that blog entry.

 

[Jigsaw]

Good point.



My supposition is based on a very shallow, brainfog influenced understanding of methylation and other bodily processes. I tossed the idea out to see what others with more knowledge would think of the idea.




It's interesting how different our reactions can be. If I took a full capsule of l-carnitine fumarate I would probably get suicidal anxiety.



He does speculate several times in that blog entry.

When I was on Freddds treatment I was taking 25 G for a few months then settled on 8-12 G per day. My daily dose now is 1.6 G.

The first time I took methylfolate it was like my years-dormant personality started to wake up. Within days my sense of humor returned. It was wonderful. It also gradually eliminated the tired-but-wired feeling I had lived with, constantly, for many years. And it allowed me start sleeping noticeably. It's one of my indispensible supplements.

If I did that, I'd be like you on Carnitine! (I've stopped using carnitine since I saw a study that showed carnitine impairs peripheral tissue conversion of thyroid hormones - last thing I need right now. Evidently, carnitine is used as a hyperthyroid treatment!

Is it possible that the anxiety etc that you experience on carnitine screws up your thyroid hormones enough to cause blocks/failures in your hormone/ neurotransmitter production, or do you think the amounts you react to are too tiny to be able to do that?)

Brilliant that you've unlocked your health mystery with methylfolate

I'll know when I've got things right for my particular, peculiar system when I go through that Waking Up thing too. I call it "Ping!" I've had several Ping! moments over the years, but unfortunately they have never yet been sustainable. I'm hoping that iodine is going to at least give me another few weeks of Ping! before I crash, burn, and return, once again, to the nutritional drawing-board.

 

[Jigsaw]

@PatJ

Yes, he really does speculate, doesn't he? Quite wildly, too.

I find his logic flawed and fuzzy.

He seems unaware of some basics, including the inescapable fact that whenever you introduce any hormone replacement therapy involving adrenal steroids like hydro, prednisone, etc, or thyroid hormones like T3 and T4, but especially T3, everyone has to start with very small doses and titrate up very gradually. You can't go charging in at full therapeutic doses because doing so makes everyone feel stunningly dreadful, not just him.

He gets some things right, although if he actually did some research, he'd see that his "original thought" process about hypothyroidism causing sluggish liver function is well-documented and far from a new idea. It's part of the reason why high cholesterol is caused by hypo t.

 

[PatJ]

I've stopped using carnitine since I saw a study that showed carnitine impairs peripheral tissue conversion of thyroid hormones - last thing I need right now. Evidently, carnitine is used as a hyperthyroid treatment!

That's good to know.

Is it possible that the anxiety etc that you experience on carnitine screws up your thyroid hormones enough to cause blocks/failures in your hormone/ neurotransmitter production, or do you think the amounts you react to are too tiny to be able to do that?)

I don't know the reason for the anxiety. It's something that quite a few people encounter with LCF on Freddd's treatment. He mentioned that one woman went through multi-day psychosis because she started with an amount that was normal for most people, but far too much for her. This strong reaction that some people have is why he advises starting with a tip-of-a-toothpick amount to see how a person reacts.

When I was taking LCF I had to stay below 1/3 capsule at one time to avoid strong anxiety, and I had to work up to that amount.

Back to iodine: I've been taking 14 drops of 5% Lugol's per day (6.25 * 14 = 87.5 mg) and have been experiencing very smelly, dark yellow/orange urine. Apparently this is a sign of bromide detox. It's actually building up a yellow stain in the toilet bowl so that it needs more frequent cleaning.

This time at the high dose I'm not having the super sleepiness that I encountered last time. Maybe all the milk thistle and Na-RALA I've been taking have helped to prepare my liver for detox with this second attempt at high iodine usage.

 

[Jigsaw]

That's good to know.



I don't know the reason for the anxiety. It's something that quite a few people encounter with LCF on Freddd's treatment. He mentioned that one woman went through multi-day psychosis because she started with an amount that was normal for most people, but far too much for her. This strong reaction that some people have is why he advises starting with a tip-of-a-toothpick amount to see how a person reacts.

When I was taking LCF I had to stay below 1/3 capsule at one time to avoid strong anxiety, and I had to work up to that amount.

Back to iodine: I've been taking 14 drops of 5% Lugol's per day (6.25 * 14 = 87.5 mg) and have been experiencing very smelly, dark yellow/orange urine. Apparently this is a sign of bromide detox. It's actually building up a yellow stain in the toilet bowl so that it needs more frequent cleaning.

This time at the high dose I'm not having the super sleepiness that I encountered last time. Maybe all the milk thistle and Na-RALA I've been taking have helped to prepare my liver for detox with this second attempt at high iodine usage.

have been experiencing very smelly, dark yellow/orange urine. Apparently this is a sign of bromide detox. It's actually building up a yellow stain in the toilet bowl so that it needs more frequent cleaning.

What's your water intake like? How many times a day do you pee?

In the context of iodosupplementation, I would have thought that staining the toket bowl yellow could well be an indication of your body peeing out a ton of iodine instead of absorbing it......I don't understand why that would happen if you're still pushing out bromide.

Is there any chance that you could be dehydrated? - in the nirmal way of things, dark urine is indicative of dehydration and or infection. Are you producing the amount that is usual for you, or smaller quantities than that?

- A quick way to check for dehydration is by pinching up the skin on the back of your hand, in the area of your hand that is in line with the gap between your thumb and your first finger, level with the ball of your thumb. . Pull it up ino an inverted "V", hold for a couple of seconds, then release. If you're dehydrated, the skin will take its time to ping back and be flat again. If it looks crinkly and takes more than a few seconds, you're dehydrated (apologies if you already know all this, and have done the necessary pinch test.)

- Feel free to pm me if you'd rather keep this off the board

 

[Jigsaw]

That's good to know.



I don't know the reason for the anxiety. It's something that quite a few people encounter with LCF on Freddd's treatment. He mentioned that one woman went through multi-day psychosis because she started with an amount that was normal for most people, but far too much for her. This strong reaction that some people have is why he advises starting with a tip-of-a-toothpick amount to see how a person reacts.

When I was taking LCF I had to stay below 1/3 capsule at one time to avoid strong anxiety, and I had to work up to that amount.

Back to iodine: I've been taking 14 drops of 5% Lugol's per day (6.25 * 14 = 87.5 mg) and have been experiencing very smelly, dark yellow/orange urine. Apparently this is a sign of bromide detox. It's actually building up a yellow stain in the toilet bowl so that it needs more frequent cleaning.

This time at the high dose I'm not having the super sleepiness that I encountered last time. Maybe all the milk thistle and Na-RALA I've been taking have helped to prepare my liver for detox with this second attempt at high iodine usage.

I'm in the middle of the super-sleepy bit right now

I take my dose after breakfast, and promotly fall asleep for an hour or so. Can't prevent it, no choice in the matter. Eyes just close!

How long did that go on for with you? Did you stop the iodine for a few days/ 2 days then restart? I have a feeling you did, but am too foggy atm to go check!

 

[PatJ]

What's your water intake like? How many times a day do you pee?

I drink roughly 2.5-3 litres per day. Urination occurs 8-15 times per day due to CFS/ME related diabetes insipidus. As Dr. Teitelbaum has said, his patients with CFS/ME "drink like a fish and pee like a racehorse."

In the context of iodosupplementation, I would have thought that staining the toket bowl yellow could well be an indication of your body peeing out a ton of iodine instead of absorbing it......I don't understand why that would happen if you're still pushing out bromide.

There are posts on CureZone from people who also noticed the dark urine and the chemical odor (also darker stool). The general consensus is that it's bromide being expelled. Some people don't notice a change in urine color until their iodine intake passes a certain level. Others said they had periods of dark urine with odor for months and then it stopped, which I assume would be an indication of no more bromide to expel, and a sign that it wasn't related to iodine being expelled.

I do wonder if it might be excess iodine. I'll wait and see what happens because I'm feeling better on the high dose iodine than without it.

Is there any chance that you could be dehydrated? - in the nirmal way of things, dark urine is indicative of dehydration and or infection. Are you producing the amount that is usual for you, or smaller quantities than that?

Definitely not dehydrated. I figured out long ago that I have a delicate balance point -- too much liquid and I urinate every 20-40 minutes, too little by a glass or two and I dehydrate. Pure water tends to go right through me so I drink a no-sugar electrolyte mix instead.

Something interesting is that before methylation supplements my urine was almost never dark, even first thing in the morning. After methylation it started to darken as expected although it's more diluted than normal because I urinate so often. Now with the iodine supplementation there are periods where it's like pouring dye into the toilet; at those times there has occasionally been an odor that is similar to the stinky air 'freshener' pucks that are often found in urinals.

Hmm. Let's see what the Google oracle has to say about bromide and urinals... methyl bromide can be used in toilet bowl and urinal cleaner, which sounds promising, but another page says that methyl bromide is nearly odorless. But, I have an extreme sense of smell for certain chemicals. And maybe different forms of bromide have varied odor intensity.

That same page says that "Paradichlorobenzene is the active principle in commercial "moth crystals" and many home garden formulations designed to control wood boring insects. It is solid at room temperature, and is now widely used as a moth repellant, air freshener, and deodorizer in homes and in public facilities. It is commonly placed in public rest rooms in the form of "toilet cakes" or "urinal cookies." The vapor is only mildly irritating to the nose and eyes."

That's interesting. Now to search for iodine and benzene to see if iodine can help to expel benzene... and here's this page on CureZone that says:
"Note: If your urine is brown colored with an odor, you may be excreting nitrobenzene as well as phenolic and benzyl compounds."

It mentions B vitamins and vitamin C as important for detoxing benzene. I've just started taking b vitamins again (other than B12) and more vitamin C, so maybe that has something to do with the odor in combination with the extra iodine.

So that might explain the occasional 'urinal cookie' urine odor (and no, I don't use scented toilet bowl cleaner). Or maybe I'm making unjustified assumptions based on my lack of biological and chemical knowledge.

How long did that go on for with you? Did you stop the iodine for a few days/ 2 days then restart? I have a feeling you did, but am too foggy atm to go check!

When the sleepiness problem hit the first time around I was already so fatigued that more was just too much so I quickly cut down until I hit a point where I didn't feel tired after taking the iodine. I think I should have continued. I didn't try pulsing. I eventually went down to 1 drop of 2% per day for about 8 months until ramping back up again last month.

It's interesting that I hit the detox symptoms again even after taking that small but constant amount of iodine for 8 months.

Speculation on sleepiness:
a) Bromide sedative: I learned today that bromide can be used as a sedative and induces sleep. Maybe bromide detox induces sleepiness because of bromide hitting the blood stream before being expelled?

b) Salt loading helping?: This time around I take some salt (~1/4 tsp) about 20 mins before the iodine so maybe I'm avoiding sleepiness because the salt preload is binding bromide before it can induce sleepiness?

c) Iron metabolism:
I found this in my health notes about iodine:
"I just read from a from an experienced Iodine doctor that iron metabolism speeds up with people on 50mg or more of iodine. The treatment is iron supplement and b6 complex." I take some b vitamins, and add molasses to my smoothies every 2-3 days. Hmm.

d) Grab bag of possibilities from another health note:
"Possible reasons for tiredness: increase in thyroid hormone that causes temporary hypothyroidism, body is adjusting and working harder to increase immune system, organs and systems are starting to work better (ie. stomach acid production should increase), extra burden on liver due to apoptosis (programmed cell death) working more effectively, sedative effect from certain toxins."

Some people on CureZone said they had extra fatigue initially, and after a dose increase, and sometimes in waves of energy-fatigue-energy but eventually it subsided. Salt loading helped in some cases.

So many possibilities and reactions.

 

[PatJ]

Hey, I noticed last night that my urine looked the same as you described yours to me yesterday! I guess I'm going to have to use you and your iodine experiences as a sort of guide of what's to come for me - you're obviously slightly further on than I am

@Jigsaw Quote from your post on the pink salt thread.

Effects I've experienced so far:
* Forearm 'rash' - brownish, almost like a layer of dead skin in a kind of coral formation. Rubbing removed it but I had to be careful because the skin below was quite sensitive and could bleed. This rash happened last time as well. This time it went away after awhile, then came back a little, then went away again.

* Mucous - lots of throat mucous for couple of nights along with a metallic taste. This occurred near the beginning. I haven't tried it but I've read that oil pulling can help reduce the metallic taste.

* Body acne

* Slightly bulging eyes - made me wonder about hyperthyroidism but I didn't have any other symptoms. Lasted for a week or two.

* Mild headache, kidney ache - salt water flushing helped.

* Odd taste in the mouth - intermittent.

* Ear drums - both seem to 'flex outward' or pop more than usual now. Sometimes the feeling of them flexing is accompanied by a quick somewhat sharp pain. It hurts more if I'm wearing ear plugs because of the sudden pressure increase.

* Orange (sometimes a little brown) urine, occasionally with a chemical odor as described in my previous post, most often with a very pungeant concentrated urine odor.

Good effects:
* Better sleep - was deeper in the beginning but I seem to have adjusted.
* Very vivid dreams a couple of times.
* Thinking is more clear, less brainfog
* More energy
* Improved digestion - maybe due to increased stomach acid but I still have to take the same amount of betaine HCL, so maybe not.

I'm at 100mg/day now in two doses.

Mine looked definitely orange, and I also drink 2-3l/d water. Very strange. I haven't seen that reported in any of the case studies, case reports, etc. Have you?

I haven't read about the orange urine, and associated odor, in 'official' documents but have read anecdotal reports, especially on CureZone. Some people have reported orange, brown, even greenish urine.

 

[Jigsaw]

@Jigsaw Quote from your post on the pink salt thread.

Effects I've experienced so far:
* Forearm 'rash' - brownish, almost like a layer of dead skin in a kind of coral formation. Rubbing removed it but I had to be careful because the skin below was quite sensitive and could bleed. This rash happened last time as well. This time it went away after awhile, then came back a little, then went away again.

* Mucous - lots of throat mucous for couple of nights along with a metallic taste. This occurred near the beginning. I haven't tried it but I've read that oil pulling can help reduce the metallic taste.

* Body acne

* Slightly bulging eyes - made me wonder about hyperthyroidism but I didn't have any other symptoms. Lasted for a week or two.

* Mild headache, kidney ache - salt water flushing helped.

* Odd taste in the mouth - intermittent.

* Ear drums - both seem to 'flex outward' or pop more than usual now. Sometimes the feeling of them flexing is accompanied by a quick somewhat sharp pain. It hurts more if I'm wearing ear plugs because of the sudden pressure increase.

* Orange (sometimes a little brown) urine, occasionally with a chemical odor as described in my previous post, most often with a very pungeant concentrated urine odor.

Good effects:
* Better sleep - was deeper in the beginning but I seem to have adjusted.
* Very vivid dreams a couple of times.
* Thinking is more clear, less brainfog
* More energy
* Improved digestion - maybe due to increased stomach acid but I still have to take the same amount of betaine HCL, so maybe not.

I'm at 100mg/day now in two doses.



I haven't read about the orange urine, and associated odor, in 'official' documents but have read anecdotal reports, especially on CureZone. Some people have reported orange, brown, even greenish urine.

Hi,

Thanks for all that, Pat

I went to Curezone and ended up listening to this:

http://www.curezone.org/upload/Audio/Iodine/IodineDrFlechasDrStanTwoHour.mp3

It'd a radio broadcast, sometime after 2005, in which Flechas says that when he was testing his son't daily urine output, it had a thick layer of brown sludge at the bottom of the container.

The brown sludge was bromine from the several Mountain Dew drinks the boy was drinking at school every day. Mountain Dew has brominated vegetable oil, to help disperse the citric acid in the drink.

I found the radio host pretty superfluous, but Flechas has some fascinating discoveries about iodine, bromine and fluoride to share. Well worth listening to this interview, despite the fact that I couldn't find any way of either pausing it, rewinding it, or fast forwarding it!

 

[PatJ]

It'd a radio broadcast, sometime after 2005, in which Flechas says that when he was testing his son't daily urine output, it had a thick layer of brown sludge at the bottom of the container.

That's interesting. Maybe bromine sludge is what is slightly staining my toilet bowl.

I'd like to listen to those interviews but I have hyperacusis triggered by any sound coming out of a speaker. I haven't found a transcript.

 

[Jigsaw]

That's interesting. Maybe bromine sludge is what is slightly staining my toilet bowl.

I'd like to listen to those interviews but I have hyperacusis triggered by any sound coming out of a speaker. I haven't found a transcript.

Exactly

Oh, poor you!

I'll have a look round and see if I can find one anywhere,