• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Interview with Dr. De Meirleir about ME/CFS/SEID and Lyme Oct, 2014

paolo

Senior Member
Messages
198
Location
Italy
I can´t find any earlier post about this radioshow from October, 2014. Please tell me if I am wrong and this should be deleted.

The radioshow was produced by Katina Makris in Lyme Light Radio, with the title Lyme disease in Belgium. The first part is an interview with a Belgian Lyme patient and from about 31:20 you will hear Dr. De Meirleir talk about ME and Lyme, their connections, research, future a.o.


If KDM is right, we have that borrelia is the causative agent of CFS/ME. In other words borrelia is for CFS what HIV is for AIDS. But I'm not sure if this is exacly what he was meaning when he said that CFS and Lyme "are exactly the same thing".

I guess that the main issue here is the reliability of the test he uses (LTT) to identify Lyme patients. If LTT is reliable, then he is right and we have that ME patients are mainly seronegative chronic Lyme.

By the way. I am an ME patient, I have a negative Western Blot for borrelia, but I have a positive PCR for borrelia. So I am a seronegative Lyme patient (late stage) with a previous diagnosis of ME. So I fit in the picture KDM is painting, but for the fact that I used PCR in order to be diagnosed instead of LTT.
 
Last edited:

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Folk, you seem to have become distracted by your own metaphor - I didn´t say that anyone should play on either team (it´s not really a question of being picked as choosing to`play, since you know that if you go to KDM there is a good chance of being diagnosed with Lyme, and if you go to see Klimas, say, there is a good chance you will be diagnosed with ME).

What I did say was that it is more likely (I will leave out the ´much´ this time) that you will improve if you see one of the Lyme specialists than if you see one of the ME specialists, particularly one of those who do not offer treatments, or who only offer symptomatic treatments.

As for the claims about no one herxing and everyone instantly getting better, I didn´t hear KDM say that in the interview, so are you talking about ´Under our skin´ ? I would hope that no one on this forum would base their prognosis on an internet film.

When I said that you are more likely to get better, that was based on the fact that it is likely that a proportion of people with ME actually have Lyme, and on the old-fashioned idea that treating the cause of an illness can lead to an improvement in a patient´s condition.

Oh, and can you put a name to any of the ´unsuccessful´ stories? I can´t think of any, but I can think of some who say they have been helped by KDM´s treatment. If you only measure success by remission then I doubt there are many ´successful´stories from patients of other doctors either.

In the end, it´s your choice (if you are able to afford it) whether you see a particular specialist or not, and in the opinión of many on this board it is worth seeing KDM, so either we have a different understanding of the disease to you, or we have different expectations of what we can reasonably hope to gain from it. In either case, it seems we are unlikely to change each other´s minds on this, so perhaps we should save our energy for debating other people, like doctors or relatives.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Paolo's comparison of the Lyme/ME relationship to HIV/AIDS is interesting, and one I lean toward as well (understanding Bb and company are not retroviruses). I also agree with msf that perhaps the best angle to approach this relationship is through Lyme.

I say this because in Lyme we have a known pathogen. We know in large measure how it acts in acute stage. We have many studies that demonstrate how it behaves and reacts in vitro, and we can speculate and debate and slip into polemics over what happens once the disease enters humans and disseminates. That is, we can try to draw inferences from in vitro studies into how the bacteria can morph and survive not only our immune system, but frequently any abx barrage we fire at them; or, if you incline toward the IDSA camp, reflect that in vitro studies demonstrate fairly conclusively that tetracyclines will pretty much eradicate any viable spirochete.

This is where things really gets unwieldy, imo. Because regardless of school, BOTH sides agree that many sick people emerge post-treatment. (Although one group believes far more remain sick than the other is willing to acknowledge) So, one side without Bb, one side with Bb. But both agree a certain amount of Lyme patients don't recover. So, I think where msf and I concur is that because we have a known causative agent - borrelia - and a known end result - either abx refractory Lyme or, for all intents and purposes, ME/CFS - then the NEXT step is obvious and irrespective of camp. The next step is to explore and qualify the end result in all of these people who continue with symptoms and continue to degenerate post-treatment. To accurately characterize their condition and to attempt to provide meaningful therapies.

This seems a pretty straight forward theory: Lyme sometimes results in ME/CFS. Accordingly, if Lyme is in your research purview, you follow that relationship where ever it may take you, and you explore it, and you reveal both its overt manifestations and its slightest nuances. If Lyme is your responsibility, so too is late stage Lyme, and chronic Lyme - and that portion of ME/CFS cases that is caused by the Lyme agent.

Only, this is not happening, at least not in the US. In fact, the opposite seems true. Many vested with the responsibility of characterizing what some call chronic Lyme or PTLDS, others Late Stage Disseminated Lyme, are, for whatever reasons/incentives, downplaying the severity of the symptom clusters reported to them - downplaying their number, downplaying their intensity, and marginalizing their importance (and in doing so, marginalizing the patients).

This is a small number of very influential researchers and clinicians, but their collective bottle-necking efforts are substantive. They are effective, too.

So much so, that this obvious approach to following the disease from a colony of Bb nestled in a tick's midgut, through latching onto a human host, through the various stages of Lyme, and into what may be ME/CFS... Just doggedly following that trail and uncovering the mechanisms at play... And gauging the extent and validity of that relationship... Seems to have been stopped in its tracks.
 
Last edited:

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
JUST A FEW POINTS ID LIKE TO MAKE IN RESPONSE TO THE DISCUSSION HERE. (oops caps lock - not shouting)
1. KDM does not say that 95% of his patients have Lyme - he says about that percentage test positive for chornic bacterial infections - not all Lyme.

2. KDM does not say that M.E= Lyme in the radio cast. My reading is that the effects on the immune system/body are almost identical.

3. KDM does not diagnose all his patients with Lyme and then say they don't have M.E. He diagnosed me with M.E, complicated by chronic underlying bacterial infections. I also have Mold issues and many others that have come on board - that's why he doesn't claim to cure people, but does his best to help what he finds.

4. False Positives are really not an issue - its false negatives we should be worried about. For the US to go from saying 30,000 to 300,000 new cases in the space of a year is very worrying. In Germany and France official figures are showing epidemic proportions of people with Lyme.

5. Under Our Skin and herxing - the blond woman who is very ill is clearly herxing and becomes almost totally incapacitated once on treatment and talks about going to the ER a number of times. So does the park ranger guy - we see photos of him laying on the floor covered in a blanket very very ill after starting antibiotics

6.The patients on Under our skin may have become completely well after very hard long antibiotic treatment because they had not been undiagnosed and untreated for as long as some here. For me my immune system is a complete mess from at least 25 years of being undiagnosed - you cant turn that around and all the entailing mess with a few antibiotics - look at Horowitz's MSIDS theory to get a fuller picture of what happens after decades of ill health and neglect.

7. Yolanda Foster was only diagnosed by KDM - he is not her treating physician.
 

paolo

Senior Member
Messages
198
Location
Italy
JUST A FEW POINTS ID LIKE TO MAKE IN RESPONSE TO THE DISCUSSION HERE. (oops caps lock - not shouting)
1. KDM does not say that 95% of his patients have Lyme - he says about that percentage test positive for chornic bacterial infections - not all Lyme.

And what do you think about these slides that KDM used during the debate -one year ago- in Dutch Parliament?

http://nelelijnen.be/images/nele_afbeeldingen/laatste_nieuws/2014/Presentatie_De_Meirleir.ppt

In the second slide -as long as I can understand- he is saying that 95% of CFS patients (Fukuda Criteria and Canadian Criteria) are Late Stage Lyme Disease. Do I misinterpret this document?
 
Last edited:

Nielk

Senior Member
Messages
6,970
When a patient who has had ME and subsequently is diagnosed with and treated for Lyme, what happens to their ME symptoms when the treatment works for the Lyme? When the Lyme is hopefully under control, do they still have ME?
 

NK17

Senior Member
Messages
592
When a patient who has had ME and subsequently is diagnosed with and treated for Lyme, what happens to their ME symptoms when the treatment works for the Lyme? When the Lyme is hopefully under control, do they still have ME?
Good question @Nielk! One to which I'd like to have an answer ...

I personally think that there are many roads that can lead to ME and it is becoming more clear that Lyme Disease and other associated co-infections might be part of the picture.

Mind you I'm not saying that all PwME have chronic Lyme or late stage Lyme, but it's a disease/s (chronic infectious states) that clearly needs to be investigated by those few doctors who are willing to try to help us.

For that group of ME patients who have tried long term A/V without amelioration of our crippling and disabling symptoms, investigating and treating Lyme & Cie. should be an option. Same thing with Rituximab non-responders …

The whole ME field is a big huge MEss, I see it like a big mass of tangled cables and each and everyone of those cables needs and deserves to be followed, untangled, researched and acted upon.

I hope to survive and get better and give testimony and help us all find answers.
 

paolo

Senior Member
Messages
198
Location
Italy
When a patient who has had ME and subsequently is diagnosed with and treated for Lyme, what happens to their ME symptoms when the treatment works for the Lyme? When the Lyme is hopefully under control, do they still have ME?

My idea, so far, is that a person who fulfil an ME diagnosis and who also is positive for Lyme, has an ongoing infection by spirochetes. The ME symptoms -in such a patient- are due to the chronic struggle of the immune system against spirochetes well radicated in the body (mainly in brain and joints, but also in heart and other tissues).

In other words some ME patients (but I can't say how many) may have persistent infection by borrelia. This drives inflammation, which drives all the symptoms that we know very well (fatigue at rest, post exertional fatigue, brain fog, pain).

If this model is correct, you can reduce your symptoms treating the infection. Some say (Brian Fallon, Columbia University) that when you clear the infection you can go through a period of post-infectious symptoms, which last no more than a year.

This is only one of the possible theoretical models of ME in Lyme patients. According to this, your ME will disappear after you clear the infection.

If I'm not wrong, Keith Jarrett has been one of the CFS patients who had benefits from long therm antibiotics. This doesn't mean that he had Lyme, but may be an example of how you can recover from CFS, by clearing the underlying infection.
 
Last edited:

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Yeah, Paolo, but if patients cannot clear the Bb infection, then that model may not hold up. Also, it seems contingent on that weird claim by Fallon that post-infectious symptoms resolve in no more than a year. I'm thinking that claim by him may be a little hard to justify.

If that claim is without merit, then even if Bb is resolved, then the dilemma of where to source - or under what label - persistent symptoms remains.
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
And what do you think about these slides that KDM used during the debate -one year ago- in Dutch Parliament?

http://nelelijnen.be/images/nele_afbeeldingen/laatste_nieuws/2014/Presentatie_De_Meirleir.ppt

In the second slide -as long as I undestand- he is saying that 95% of CFS patients (Fukuda Criteria and Canadian Criteria) are Late Stage Lyme Disease. Do I misinterpreted this document?
what I say is that I was wrong and KDM is saying that 95% of his patients test positive for Lyme.
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
I thought the current thinking was that the body could be permanently damaged by the Lyme infection and that some people may never recover - or that M.E symptoms might remain after treatment.

KDM certainly doesn't claim a cure - he told me we have hope, and we treat as best we can whatever we find. And despite not fitting neatly into his treatment plans he has not given up on me, but looked for other solutions and other root causes. A sensible solution in the current climate.
 

Folk

Senior Member
Messages
217
Folk, you seem to have become distracted by your own metaphor - I didn´t say that anyone should play on either team (it´s not really a question of being picked as choosing to`play, since you know that if you go to KDM there is a good chance of being diagnosed with Lyme, and if you go to see Klimas, say, there is a good chance you will be diagnosed with ME).

What I did say was that it is more likely (I will leave out the ´much´ this time) that you will improve if you see one of the Lyme specialists than if you see one of the ME specialists, particularly one of those who do not offer treatments, or who only offer symptomatic treatments.
I didn't get lost. The point is.. It shouldn't be up to you to choose or we might as well get to the doctor and he'll say:
"I checked your bloodwork and your symptoms and I came to a conclusion: it's either Lyme or ME/CFS what do you prefer?"
"Lyme please"
"Lyme it is! ABX!" hehe

As for the claims about no one herxing and everyone instantly getting better, I didn´t hear KDM say that in the interview, so are you talking about ´Under our skin´ ? I would hope that no one on this forum would base their prognosis on an internet film.

Well I mentioned that about Under our skin yes... Because someone brought the film into question and I compared that with what we see here.

Oh, and can you put a name to any of the ´unsuccessful´ stories? I can´t think of any, but I can think of some who say they have been helped by KDM´s treatment. If you only measure success by remission then I doubt there are many ´successful´stories from patients of other doctors either.

To name one... It was @snowathlete if I remember correctly who developed Uclerative colitis with his treatment?

I measure by his own rule. He says at least 50% of his patients doesn't need to come not even for management after a while (that's not even remission for me, that's cure). He says patients under 30 should get at least 90% improv and over 50 at least 50%. So I just expect what he tells us.
 

Antares in NYC

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
USA
As for the claims about no one herxing and everyone instantly getting better, I didn´t hear KDM say that in the interview, so are you talking about ´Under our skin´ ? I would hope that no one on this forum would base their prognosis on an internet film.
Woah... just a second: "Under Our Skin" is not exactly an "internet film". This was a fully funded long-form documentary that premiered at Tribeca Film Festival in 2008, won the Audience Choice Award at Tribeca, and was Semifinalist for the 2009 Academy Awards in the Best Documentary Feature category; that's two steps short of an Oscar.

It may be fully available on the internet now, but it's a tiny bit more than an "internet video" ;)
 
Last edited:

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Folk, so from a sample of one you can tell whether the rate KDM states is accurate or not? Also, if you had looked into it more, you would have found out that KDM says that the ´unsuccessful´ patients included 5% who (like Snowathelete) had been treated for less than a year, which was less than the average for the successful patients, and therefore if all these patients had continued treatment then it is likely that the 'successful' group would have been larger. Of course, this was based on his own reporting of a report that I can't find, so like all the other ME specialists, you have to take this on faith at the moment, with the conceit that the Norwegian ME study found similar levels of success in the small number of KDM patients they have data for.

With regard to your first point, it shouldn't be true, but what if it is?
 

paolo

Senior Member
Messages
198
Location
Italy
Of course, this was based on his own reporting of a report that I can't find, so like all the other ME specialists, you have to take this on faith at the moment, with the conceit that the Norwegian ME study found similar levels of success in the small number of KDM patients they have data for.

Hi msf, I would like to know more about this Norvegian ME study. Could you give me some link or detail? Thanks so much.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Justy, KDM seems to say that Lyme and ME are 'exactly the same thing' in the interview, which allowing for a slight exaggeration, seems to agree with the presentation at the Belgian senate, in which he said that 95% of his patients are positive by LTT-Elispot, although that might have changed, and it might also be a result of including borderline results in the positive group - either way, as I see it, if this is true then a sizeable proportion of his patients have been exposed to Lyme.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Hi paulo, I posted it somewhere else on the forum, but it only has a few lines on KDM's patients, in which it reports that 3 out of 4 his patients reported improvement, and only 1 in 10 reported getting worse. It didn't say what the size of the sample was, only that it was small, but from my Reading of it it has to have been at least 10.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Oh, and the proportions were basically reversed for both GET and the Lightning Method, the only other two treatments they had sufficient data on.
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
@msf yes I can see now that my reading of the situation was not correct and KDM is finding Lyme in 95% of his patients - im not one of them - yet! LTT was negative, but I do have Bart, Cpn, waiting for Babs testing and mold panel right now. Will probably re test at some point, but all my other immune markers suggest a gram negative bacterial infection.

We also need to bear in mind that many people are now going to see KDM for Lyme, rather than M.E, or have never had a dx of M.E but are just ill with something a regular Dr can't work out. The medical community at large is overdiagnosing 'cfs' in people who present with multiple symptoms without testing them for anything.

Despite having a history or being a gardener and having a (misspent) youth camping out a lot , three bouts of pneumonia and asthma that does not respond well to treatment no NHS GP has ever offered me testing for any kind of chornic infection. CPN is a well know cause of pneumonia in the community and can become chronic and cause asthma - this is well documented in the literature - and yet I was never offered anything beyond a chest x ray - even when I was coughing up blood no one sent me to hospital or ever did a sputum sample.

The levels of neglect are staggering in this country - we all end up thrown in the 'CFS' bin.