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Infections or Methylation?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by GreenMachineX, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    For anyone who’s seen my posts the past 6 months, I’ve been chasing the methylation tail, but I’m wondering if I’m doing the wrong thing first. Every time I take methylfolate and methylcobalamin, I get terrible muscle tightness, angular cheilitis develops, and I hold water in my face and abdomen and gut feels distended/bloated. When I switch to a multi that uses folic acid and cyanocobalamin, the angular cheilitis heals, I have full Range of motion in arms and shoulders but I have zero energy, no memory at all and it’s really hard to get out of bed, but I don’t feel *inflamed* and I lose the water weight. If I don’t take anything, histamine gets crazy, lump in throat, difficulty breathing, etc.

    Is the methylated vitamins bringing out a Candida or some other infection? The angular cheilitis is what’s getting me confused.

    A few days ago, I took 1 gram of MSM, and by the end of the day had a headache, next morning had several pimples, itchy in arm pits and around ankles and had awesome bowel movements (TMI?). Was that a detox(Herx)? Does anyone have any suggestion what to do next? Thanks in advance.

    For the record, my ferritin is good enough and I take plenty of b2, zinc so shouldn’t be any deficiency.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
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  2. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Didn't follow your post closely. Did you also try the multi with a fraction of the methylfolate and methylcobalamin? If you didn't, could well be that there is some co-factor needed in the multi, which goes deficient with too much of B9 and B12 alone. For example Sulfur needs some Molybdenum too. Beside others.
     
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  3. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    I wonder if I need more molybdenum, as I’m only getting 100mcg I’m the multi. How low of doses do you mean with methylfolate and methylcobalamin?
     
  4. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    I forgot to also mention in the first post regarding Candida is thickening and yellow toenails. Kind of gross...
     
  5. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Dr. Ben Lynch is a leading methylation expert. He says to treat the gut first if you have methylation issues. Because the gut can cause so much oxidative stress and a huge increase in toxins that the methylation cycle has to deal with.

    Treating the gut first, because it lowers the bodies toxic load, should lessen the side effects from improving methylation.

    Given the many studies that show significant dysbiosis and increased intestinal permeability (leaky gut) in ME/CFS, it seems like a very reasonable place to start.
     
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  6. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    A fraction of what you have been taken alone, combined with the multi. Or try it with a complete B-complex - since when one of the Bs is taken high dose usually all the others are needed - and to narrow it a bit down from all the other ingredients in the multi.

    B_metabolism.gif
     
  7. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    Gotcha. So how do I begin that? I mostly eat grilled chicken and steak, brown rice, quinoa and oatmeal, so not much carbage.
     
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  8. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    A low carb diet and antibacterial/anti-fungal herbs are needed.

    Before you start taking antibacterial/anti-fungal herbs I would strongly recommend taking supplements to support your mitochondria from the toxins from the yeast and bacteria that are killed off.

    They will cause a lot of oxidative stress and impair the mitochondria. Not something we want with ME/CFS.

    Supplements like coq10, Alpha lipoic acid and B-1 all support the mitochondria well. Once the mitochondrial support is in place I would add the herbs very slowly and watch for die-off symptoms, which can be mild to so strong they put you in bed.

    That's why it's so important to start the herbs very slowly and watch for die-off symptoms.
     
  9. GreenMachineX

    GreenMachineX Senior Member

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    Gotcha. Any suggestions for those herbs?
     
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  10. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    There are so many but it might be best to start with one that you can easily adjust the dose of to see how you react to the die-off.

    Actually Ceylon cinnamon, not regular cinnamon might be a good one to start with. You can buy it in a powder, as a spice and take as little or as much as you want to. I just wash it down with a little juice type drink.

    It's important to get the Ceylon though, be cause the cassia has high levels of coumarin in it, which can be toxic to the liver in high doses. Ceylon cinnamon has no such issue. Here is a link to the cinnamon I am talking about.

    You can take up to 2 grams or more a day of Ceylon cinnamon very safely. I would recommend starting with only about 100mg, maybe about 1/4 of a 1/8 teaspoon to get a feel for what kind of die-off you might experience.

    If you stay at that low dose for 3 days, that will give you a good idea of how much and how often to increase the dose, without getting too many die-off symptoms.
     
  11. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Could that experiment be taken as diagnostic? For example I do take above 2 gram a day of Ceylon cinnamon already for blood sugar control without experiencing any die-off. Would that mean no significant dysbiosis or increased intestinal permeability?
     
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  12. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    That's a definite maybe.:) The body can adjust to the die-off after a while though. I think maybe different herbs kill different bacteria in the gut.

    So the cinnamon could be killing several different bacteria but there are several more, different kinds that it don't kill, causing dysbiosis.

    That's one reason it's so important I think to rotate herbs or take several different ones at a time. I think you would also need a low carb diet with the high dose cinnamon to get the best results.

    I was taking fairly high doses of antibacterial herbs for months with no noticeable improvement in my gut.

    Because I wasn't on a low carb diet too. There are also other things that can cause dysbiosis and increased intestinal permeability. Like poor gut motility, traumatic brain injury, NSAIDs, and others.

    Having said all that, taking over 2 gms ceylon cinnamon a day can only help dysbiosis and increased intestinal permeability, even without diet.
     
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  13. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    I actually do low carb since 10 years, take many additional herbs, and actually my first ubiome last year actually showed a high diversity superseded only by 7% of all tested. So lets hope it didn't kill it all off :eek:.

    Joking aside, still can't work more than 5 hours a day (mental), need at least 10 hours of sleep (unrefreshing), otherwise PEM till I find a full free day for recovery. Despite having absolute no difficulty with daily bowel-movements either.
     
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  14. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    That's really puzzling. Do you get good results from mitochondrial supplements like coq10, alpha lipoic acid or BCAAs? Just wondering if you still might have mitochondrial issues.
     
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  15. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Not really puzzling, considering that each of us came with an unique medical history, adding so much complexities:

    At the PAD diagnosis 10 years ago due to a 80% blockage at my abdominal aorta bifurcation I started comprehensive supplementation and diet changes. It's 60% walking-disability went in remission after 6 years.

    Right in the beginning i found above 160 mg/d CoC10 ceased chest-pains always occurring with some stress (mental or physical), half the dose in Ubiqunol has the same effect. That works till today, with the caveat that now just lowering the dose causes those chest-pains without any stress present.

    Took up to 600 mg/d of ALA, with no noticeable effect. Never trialed BCAAs. However, did get up to 5 g/d from other protein powders. Which did improve proteins in blood (often low).

    Finally found one study which showed consistently higher microbiome diversity in those eating at least 30 different plants during last week, consistently lower in those eating less than 10 different plants. Since I really took care of that during the last 10 years at least the microbiome result isn't surprising.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
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  16. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    I wonder how low one has to go with carbs to be lowcarb. More and more I think I need to address the gutproblem. But I do need carbs to function at all. Earlier I tried to live without grains and the result was that i became bedbound again...so that's not a possibility.

    I do not want to invest in expensive herbs when result will be nill because I feed the little buggers.
    so it feels like a catch22 to me ( many of those...)
     
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  17. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Maybe a coincidence nothing to do with grain elimination? Low-carb - other then ketogenic diet - can be highly individual, from moderate to very severe. With about 60 g/d only from vegies I would consider myself moderately low-carb. But with daily intake of grains don't think it possible to even speak of low carb.


    Ceylon cinnamon for example can be bought in bulk at good organic quality and price, so that shouldn't prevent you from experimenting.
     
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  18. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    yes, that's what I thought. So I just wait until I'm strong enough to quit grains. Living alone I cannot afford to get any more fatigued then I am now.
    And no, it is not a coincidence. When I get adverse reactions I generally try again to ( and later again) to see whether it was accidentally or if my body has changed so that I can handle it ( or in other cases do not need it anymore)

    cinnamon is tasty though, I could use that and see if there's any discernable effect even without going lowcarb
     
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  19. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    It felt like a catch 22 for me too for a long time. From the research I've done, it's not the amount of carbs that feeds the bacterial overgrowth so much as the type of carbs.

    Things like starches are the worst, where honey, oranges, very ripe bananas, etc are okay because they are absorbed very quickly in the gut, so they don't feed the bacterial overgrowth very much.

    Reducing carbs can cause significant die-off from removing the food from the bacterial overgrowth, causing them to die from lack of food. It did me when I first started reducing carbs, even though I was still eating a fairly high carb diet.

    I had to reduce my carbs VERY slowly over many months so I didn't become overwhelmed from the bacterial die-off.

    So I wasn't getting sick from going into ketosis because I was still eating a fairly high carb diet.

    Making sure the mitochondria are protected from the toxins of the bacteria that are killed off in the gut first is incredibly important I think, before killing off the bacterial overgrowth with diet or herbs.

    I think this diet is a very good one. I would just recommend if you switch to it, to do it over many weeks very slowly to avoid bacterial die-off and a flaring of symptoms from that.
     
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  20. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    that's interesting,
    I think...is some time ago...i did come into problems when I went lower then 50 gram of grain ( dry I mean)
    I now take about 75 grains of grains ( buckwheat and rice mainly) per day.
    But maybe useful to look through that list and see what else there is that can be quitted. I did eat some banana the last weeks with no bad effect, happy, something new on my list of What I can eat.

    idea is good though, to go very slow and see whether that works
     
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