Im outta here. Thank you for everything.

[datadragon]

Happy to hear your doing better. Alcohol is used by a lot of people after a stressful episode to relieve stress. This method of releasing stress unfortunately actually stimulates the HPA axis and gets the body to make and release cortisol! In fact, the levels of cortisol as a result from alcohol can be GREATER then the elevation from stress! They believe alcohol functions to activate the HPA axis by disinhibiting it. Alcohol depresses the nerve cells responsible for HPA inhibition, thereby elevating HPA axis activity. As a result, the adrenal cortex secretes higher levels of cortisol then usual since its disinhibited and can in part lead to adrenal fatigue and then supression of the TH1 immune system that protects us from viral reactivation.
Many other stressors just add to this, caffeine, excess carb/sugar, wifi, and of course life stresses. Its all cortisol and stress to the body like a tiger was chasing you.

 

[Hip]

I wonder if anyone is listening. I really hope i am wrong with this.

Lots of viruses can infect lots of different organs, including the liver. So simply observing that all these ME/CFS-associated pathogens can infect the liver does not prove that much.

If you want to promote the hypothesis that liver infection is behind ME/CFS, I think you would have to show not only that pathogens linked to ME/CFS can all infect the liver, but also show that pathogens which are not linked to ME/CFS don't infect the liver.

Viruses which are not linked to ME/CFS include: rhinovirus, norovirus, adenovirus, HHV-8, measles virus, mumps virus, rubella virus, rotavirus, bornavirus, influenzavirus, parainfluenza virus, metapneumovirus, astrovirus, polyomavirus and numerous others.



It is certainly interesting though that chronic hepatitis B virus and hepatitis C virus liver infections can produce symptoms that resemble those of ME/CFS.

 

[Diwi9]

So I'm an ME/CFS patient that does fine with alcohol. I do not feel worse after a drink (unless I'm in a crash...then I don't drink), but often I get serious vasoconstriction in my hands, about 1/2 a glass of wine seems to remit this. I have heard many times that many people with ME/CFS do not tolerate alcohol. I have a harder time with caffeine than with alcohol. I can commiserate with almost every other symptom, but this one has not been a problem and so it makes me curious about where I fit. BTW - like Greg...I greatly benefit from whey protein.

@gregh286 - You were a great support a few months back. I wish you continued success with your health, thank you for sharing. Please come back if you have new insights.

 

[gregh286]

can I aks when you figured that out because I thought you said for a while that you did well on alcohol.

One or.2 drinks is fine and actually benefical to me. When I push blood alcohol levels.higher and higher then I start to get shutdown. There is a threshold that I darent pass.

 

[mariovitali]

One or.2 drinks is fine and actually benefical to me. When I push blood alcohol levels.higher and higher then I start to get shutdown. There is a threshold that I darent pass.

I hypothesize that the benefit that you see from 2 drinks is because alcohol forces the Liver to work harder. This boosts the metabolism of all the things that the Liver is supposed to metabolize such as hormones, neurosteroids etc. If you push these boundaries however you get the "crash" that everyone is talking about.

May i ask how old are you?

 

[datadragon]

The alcohol makes your body produce cortisol in an even larger amount then a stressor, making your adrenals work harder temporarily and is using up body resources to do that. Those that have adrenal issues/CFS it would just make the problem worse by adding another stressor to deal with. It is like having a line of credit that you keep dipping into, then your supposed to pay it back on payday (rest and recharge without stress but instead keep withdrawing/adding more stress putting you further into the hole). The body at first pumps out even more cortisol to be ready because its under constant stress and has the resources, but then eventually runs out of resources and starts producing less and less cortisol. In that state you would feel better for a touch using alcohol or caffeine since its boosting your low levels, but will just deplete you more and furthering you into exhaustion. Those in exhausted may become bedridden and supression of the TH1 immune system happens that protects us from viral reactivations.

 

[Hip]

The alcohol makes your body produce cortisol in an even larger amount then a stressor,

If alcohol can increase cortisol levels in a major way, then in theory, that could explain how alcohol might help trigger ME/CFS.

This is because Dr John Chia found if people where incorrectly prescribed corticosteroids when they had come down with an acute infection from an ME/CFS-associated virus such as enterovirus, the combination of acute viral infection + corticosteroids was almost a surefire recipe for triggering ME/CFS.

Dr Chia says he sees hundreds of patients whose ME/CFS was triggered in this way.

Since corticosteroids reduce the antiviral Th1 immune response, these corticosteroid drugs may prevent the body from properly fighting off the viral infection during its acute phase, so that the virus is able to more deeply insinuate itself into the body, resulting in a chronic long term infection.


So if you happened to catch an ME/CFS-associated virus while heavy drinking was causing a major increase in cortisol levels, you would have a situation similar to Dr Chia's acute viral infection + corticosteroids trigger.

This finding of corticosteroids given during the acute infection leading to ME/CFS might also help explain how high levels of stress play a role in triggering ME/CFS: stress increases cortisol too, so if you happened to catch an ME/CFS-associated virus during a period of stress, then again the elevated cortisol may prevent the body from properly fighting off the acute infection.

 

[gregh286]

I hypothesize that the benefit that you see from 2 drinks is because alcohol forces the Liver to work harder. This boosts the metabolism of all the things that the Liver is supposed to metabolize such as hormones, neurosteroids etc. If you push these boundaries however you get the "crash" that everyone is talking about.

May i ask how old are you?

45

 

[Gingergrrl]

So I'm an ME/CFS patient that does fine with alcohol.

That is so interesting and I developed a complete intolerance to alcohol in 2013 when I first got POTS. I used to drink socially with no problems throughout my life but once I got sick in 2013, this all stopped and I have not had a sip of alcohol in 5+ years.

I initially did not know what the issue was but I now believe it is a combination of the high histamine content in alcohol (due to MCAS) combined with that it is a vasodilator and I already had very low BP. My BP for several years was around 80/50 and alcohol would drop it even further (and I do well with vasoconstrictors like Midodrine).

Now that I am basically in remission, I do not know if I could tolerate alcohol and have not tested it b/c I still take several meds that you would not mix with alcohol (and I do not want to tempt fate or mess with my good fortune)! I do not believe, in my case, that the alcohol intolerance was connected to liver issues.

@gregh286 - I wish you continued success with your health, thank you for sharing. Please come back if you have new insights.

I do not know you @gregh286 but am thrilled to hear that you are doing better and wish you the best!

 

[Ema]

I hypothesize that the benefit that you see from 2 drinks is because alcohol forces the Liver to work harder. This boosts the metabolism of all the things that the Liver is supposed to metabolize such as hormones, neurosteroids etc. If you push these boundaries however you get the "crash" that everyone is talking about.

May i ask how old are you?

I think it's also possible that alcohol could make some of us feel better because it is an alternative fuel source that can enter the TCA cycle but bypasses PDH.

 

[mariovitali]

I think it's also possible that alcohol could make some of us feel better because it is an alternative fuel source that can enter the TCA cycle but bypasses PDH.

View attachment 27392

It could be @Ema. Perhaps someone can check this Theory out if Alcohol and also Coffee tend to have a more or less a similar effect.

 

[datadragon]

If alcohol can increase cortisol levels in a major way, then in theory, that could explain how alcohol might help trigger ME/CFS.

This is because Dr John Chia found if people where incorrectly prescribed corticosteroids when they had come down with an acute infection from an ME/CFS-associated virus such as enterovirus, the combination of acute viral infection + corticosteroids was almost a surefire recipe for triggering ME/CFS.

Dr Chia says he sees hundreds of patients whose ME/CFS was triggered in this way.

Since corticosteroids reduce the antiviral Th1 immune response, these corticosteroid drugs may prevent the body from properly fighting off the viral infection during its acute phase, so that the virus is able to more deeply insinuate itself into the body, resulting in a chronic long term infection.


So if you happened to catch an ME/CFS-associated virus while heavy drinking was causing a major increase in cortisol levels, you would have a situation similar to Dr Chia's acute viral infection + corticosteroids trigger.

This finding of corticosteroids given during the acute infection leading to ME/CFS might also help explain how high levels of stress play a role in triggering ME/CFS: stress increases cortisol too, so if you happened to catch an ME/CFS-associated virus during a period of stress, then again the elevated cortisol may prevent the body from properly fighting off the acute infection.

I understand that ME/CFS has some immune issues as well. In one of the studies elsewhere, CE/MFS were mentioned to be in the adrenal exhaustion state (low cortisol) as I outlined how that can occur. In that state, the improper functioning of metallothionein from zinc deficiency, there will be an increased sensitivity to heavy metals and vaccines, poor immune function, yeast overgrowth, high susceptibility to parasitic infections/viruses. I can see with TH1 supressed we have a state where viruses will reactivate or take hold that normally would not or parasitic infection as mentioned.
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/homing-fundamenal-cause-epstein-barr-reactivation/

The zinc deficiency causes immunity problems in burnout:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2277319/

Also in exhaustion, metals accumulate since they arent being detoxed. So its quite possible that mercury can now be present. Mercury happens to inhibit nitric oxide production, which nitric oxide (NO) kills or inhibits the replication of a variety of intracellular pathogens should mercury be present when burnout occurs from nutrient deficiency.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12175822

Mercury happens to be one of the stressors also as its in nearly all seafood, and dental amalgams. Recent research also mentioned that wifi doubles the rate of mercury release from amalgams. 1.7-3g L-Arginine + 100mg Vitacost Pine Bark Extract or Pycnogenol which converts it to NO I found to work very well with my mercury to restore NO function as long as you supplement. Maybe that would help someone in regard to the virus aspect of the problems, but keep in mind in exhaustion you also still have zinc deficiency,magnesium usually, and likely b vitamins, potassium. Copper is accumulating so you will have issues with that, which also can deplete vitamin c and molybdenum. copper also wont be attached to ceruloplasmin much so its deficient. And low stomach acid will further cause problems with other nutrients absorbing them. So thats probably why these attempts to just fix the virus wont fix you completely. The virus didnt cause those issues, its an additional problem to them adding more. Maybe someone can figure out if there is a way to make copper peptide or such that can act the same as copper attached to ceruloplasmin in the body. I didnt know if the copper peptides out there can do this or not. Now that would help and be useful during treatment. If copper is ingested and not attached, its not usable and in exhaustion its not going to get bound to ceruloplasmin.

 

[datadragon]

Cortisol can be increased in production by viral infections by the way, so I guess it IS possible that a virus comes first and alongside other stressors or the corticosteroids it starts off the nutrition imbalances of zinc and magnesium. But the body would fight it off unless mercury it appears would inhibit NO which could happen before burnout.

 

[Hip]

Mercury happens to be one of the stressors

If mercury were a major factor in ME/CFS, then dentists and their assistants would have a higher prevalence of ME/CFS illnesses, as they are exposed to mercury vapor multiple times daily through drilling out old fillings.

But there is no epidemic of ME/CFS in the dental profession, as far as I am aware.

Mercury happens to inhibit nitric oxide production, which nitric oxide (NO) kills or inhibits the replication of a variety of intracellular pathogens should mercury be present when burnout occurs from nutrient deficiency.

You might be interested in this post about how mercury affects coxsackievirus B infection.

 

[gregh286]

Hi guys.
I just wanted to make.quick post. I think it quite important in metabolic trap discussion.

I ran out of ala at my holiday home so couldn't get it from amazon delivered. I took 1800mg a day.
I been in decline since wed evening.

Back down from 9 to 5-6.
The effect ala has is very very profound. I had maintained high operating levels since May.

I notice metabolic changes since running out.
1. HR jump significantly after carb ingestion.
2. Heavily fatigued after carb ingestion.
3.,HR jumping under light exertion,while on ala i can jog and run.
4. Morning deadness....and low stamina.
5. Periphal neuropathy back.(no surprise there as I feel carbs are not bring used so just dumped to waste causing nerve damage.)
6. Body heaviness. Limbs etc....easily lactate.
7. Poor mental temperament. Loose temper quick. Body uncalm...edgy...

Suffice to say Im making a 70 mile round trip now to get it asap this morning.
I did actually forget how bad cfs is.
Also I think even 1800mg might be too low for cfs moderates. Maybe in severe case may need 3 or 4g.

 

[Moof]

If alcohol can increase cortisol levels in a major way, then in theory, that could explain how alcohol might help trigger ME/CFS.

This is because Dr John Chia found if people where incorrectly prescribed corticosteroids when they had come down with an acute infection from an ME/CFS-associated virus such as enterovirus, the combination of acute viral infection + corticosteroids was almost a surefire recipe for triggering ME/CFS.

The only times I've been bed bound by ME is after taking corticosteroids for blocked ear canals. I go from moderate symptoms to so severe I can't even use the lavatory within 36 hours.

Because the drug I used was inhaled rather than taken in tablet form, my doctor didn't think it was the cause of these severe relapses. I accepted it as likely correct because I was working and often very fatigued, and this seemed a more plausible explanation. Also, getting severely blocked ear canals were very disabling; I literally couldn't even sit upright without vomiting and falling, and the corticosteroid drugs were the only thing that worked.

I eventually proved the link after going several years with no labyrinthitis, but then re-starting the drug when I felt my ears beginning to block up. When you squirt a dose of fludrocortisone up your nose it's almost impossible to avoid swallowing some of it, and I think this may have been why it caused the flare-ups when I was OK on a similar drug used for asthma.

I'm just hoping against hope I never need to take steroid meds for another medical condition...in my case, they're an absolute killer, and the relapses persist for months after stopping them!

 

[Heart Face]

Congratulations on your progress.

ALA is a great supplement, but people can get into trouble with it under certain conditions.

It's a cofactor for the citric acid/Kreb's energy cycle, so it will give natural feeling energy. It's an antioxidant. But it also converts to a mercury chelator. This is where the trouble can come in.

Mercury is an inhibitor in the carbohydrate pathway, citric acid cycle, methylation cycle and many other cycles and pathways in the body. I believe that many of us have mercury and other toxic metals. Most people aren't aware of it because it's tricky to detect. Mercury is colorless and odorless. It's unfortunately ubiquitous in our environment.

So it's not like the carbohydrate pathway magically stopped working, so that causes a build up of toxins. It's the other way around - there was toxin exposure and that inhibited various pathways from working well, including, ironically the detoxification pathways. That can create a self perpetuating downward spiral or metabolic trap.

If ALA isn't take on it's half life, it can cause mercury redistribution, which can cause mercury toxicity symptoms. That makes me concerned about the numb hands symptom.

See the Cutler chelation info in my signature link for more info.

Blooming 'ek, you're good

 

[Hip]

The only times I've been bed bound by ME is after taking corticosteroids for blocked ear canals. I go from moderate symptoms to so severe I can't even use the lavatory within 36 hours.

That's strange, because corticosteroids often instantly and dramatically improve ME/CFS symptoms when taken in the short term (but in the long term over weeks or months cause problems, likely because they allow the viral infections in ME/CFS to proliferate).

It's only when corticosteroids are taken during the initial acute infection does it trigger ME/CFS.

 

[raghav]

Why is that if I take ALA above 100 mg my HR goes up ? If I stop it altogether then I crash. same applies to coq10.

 

[ljimbo423]

Why is that if I take ALA above 100 mg my HR goes up ? If I stop it altogether then I crash. same applies to coq10.

I have the same problem with both ALA and coq10. I got coq10 in a powder, in 30mg capsules, so I can go up 5-10mg at a time.

I do the same with ALA, that way I don't get over stimulated and my HR don't skyrocket.

I think that happens because they both stimulate the mitochondria.

Jim