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IAPT - Improving Access to Psychological Therapies - manages CG53!!

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
If it's all about money, why don't they recommand nothing. Nothing is even cheaper than CBT.

Because there has to be a pretence that something is being done. That is tricky for drug therapies because evidence evaluation is stringent and people get sued for side effects. Psychotherapy is sort of airy fairy so nobody needs to worry about comebacks. And it's us not them (see next post). But someone high up might agree with you one day and cross it off the list like homeopathy!
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
As far as I can see Dr Rona Moss-Morris and Dr Chalder write the papers, review them for Cochrane and then appraise the reviews for NICE. I had a suspicion that there was a conflict of interest floating around somewhere but maybe I underestimated.

Why do I keep thinking of Donald Trump?
 
Messages
13,774
At least Cochrane seem to be aware that having ME under mental health is tricky.
But NICE is about saving money. Someone has been persuaded that therapists are cheaper than drugs. So getting NICE to change placement is a much tougher issue.

Cochrane don't seem to be doing much about the problems with their work (even after the comments from Courtney, Kindlon, etc, picking it apart) and it's this work that the NICE surveilance review relied upon to advise against updating their guidelines.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Cochrane don't seem to be doing much about the problems with their work (even after the comments from Courtney, Kindlon, etc, picking it apart) and it's this work that the NICE surveilance review relied upon to advise against updating their guidelines.

Presumably because it is again all the same people. Cochrane mental health begins to look like a sort of money laundering exercise.
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
As far as I can see Dr Rona Moss-Morris and Dr Chalder write the papers, review them for Cochrane and then appraise the reviews for NICE. I had a suspicion that there was a conflict of interest floating around somewhere but maybe I underestimated.

Why do I keep thinking of Donald Trump?
Because their next step will be to work out how to pardon themselves?
 
Messages
2,391
Location
UK
As far as I can see Dr Rona Moss-Morris and Dr Chalder write the papers, review them for Cochrane and then appraise the reviews for NICE. I had a suspicion that there was a conflict of interest floating around somewhere but maybe I underestimated.

Why do I keep thinking of Donald Trump?
I was pondering exactly the same comparison today, when I wrote in another post about BPS'ism being akin to a virus, invading so much of what we hold dear. I really do think the same sort of personality types are in play here.
 
Messages
48
But someone high up might agree with you one day and cross it off the list like homeopathy!
Speaking of homeopathy, there was a bit of discussion about this in a thread started by @AndyPR which is relevant to your point @Jonathan Edwards: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...on-of-homeopathic-remedies.52955/#post-877669



Here’s what I posted on that thread (sorry to quote myself, but I think it's relevant to this thread too):



“Patient surveys suggest that patients find homeopathy more helpful than GET, and a lot less harmful:

ME Association 2010 (UK):
30% of 1100 patients reported improved symptoms after homeopathy
and 10% that homeopathy made them worse,
compared to 22% of 906 reporting improved symptoms after GET
and 57% that GET made them worse.
http://www.meassociation.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/2010-survey-report-lo-res10.pdf

Action for ME 2014 (UK):
47% reported homeopathy helpful
and 10% that homeopathy made them worse,
compared to 35% reporting GET helpful
and 47% that GET made them worse.
https://www.actionforme.org.uk/uploads/pdfs/me-time-to-deliver-survey-report.pdf

Homeopathy also outperformed CBT in MEA 2010 but was just pipped by CBT in Action for ME 2014.

Norway's survey by Bringsli et al is in line with the MEA 2010 results above, with homeopathy helping more and harming less than GET and CBT. http://www.me-foreningen.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/ME-Nat-Norwegian-Survey-Abr-Eng-Ver.pdf



And in response to @BurnA questioning whether reported improvements from homeopathy meant we were in the land of placebo, I hazarded the following:



“I think context is important: homeopathy still ranks very low on the list of therapies that patients report as helping them/improving their symptoms in surveys, 19th of 25 in MEA 2010 and 18th of 20 in Action for ME 2014. Much, much higher proportions of patients report things like pacing as helpful: 70-85%. And I think we have to be realistic: pacing ranks 1st or 2nd for helping/improving but we would expect a future treatment that targets the disease mechanism to result in much greater change than pacing does. So in a long list of things that don't help us very much, there may be little point in splitting hairs between those at the very end, but if surveys consistently find homeopathy more helpful than GET, then that's somewhat interesting, because of its consistency.”
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Presumably because it is again all the same people. Cochrane mental health begins to look like a sort of money laundering exercise.
I have been thinking this ever since the FOI First Tier Tribunal evidence. The level of involvement in the first two Cochrane reviews invalidates them. Cochrane does not seem to care about its image or reliability.
 

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,429
Location
UK

Countrygirl

Senior Member
Messages
5,429
Location
UK
MUS is now being 'officially' used as an alternative to ME.

Here is a candid camera shot of a the ME clinic's notice board in UCL:

upload_2017-7-25_19-52-5.png