I need to sleep! Help !!!!!

[L'engle]

I got a few hours of sleep today and several hours of rest by gaming my diet a little more and cutting out more magnesium. It wasn't the most nutritious day but once in a while when I'm stuck and need to sleep it's good to know it at least helps. It's been 4 days since I completely missed a day's sleep so I may finally be past the worst of it. Can't wait for this to get easier as the vitamin d and magnesium flush from my system.

 

[L'engle]

So I had two really good days where I figured out how much calcium I needed to offset the magnesium and slept 6 hours each day. Great, solved, I thought. When I figure it out and sleep, I sleep with no problems and no artificial help.

Then the next, yesterday, I kept underestimating the amount needed and only got 2.5 hours sleep, which is really not good. So overnight I drank more milk until I had too high calcium but it was too much and now I've been awake all day and can only hope for a bit of sleep this evening when the calcium wears off.

So today I actually took the unisom, 6.25mg approx and while it is making me sluggish and dopey it definitely isn't putting me to sleep. A bit of light dreaming for a few minutes here and there. I guess my insomnia has such a specific cause with minerals that it doesn't respond to normal sleeps aids. I'm reluctant to take more than the 1/4 tablet. At this point who knows if px meds would even work.

I should get back to normal amounts of sleep once the vitamin d wears off but waiting that out and only sleeping on days when I can figure things right is tough. I don't see what advice I can get that hasn't already been given but it helps to know people are out there. I get panicky at night and end up waking my mum if it gets bad, which isn't fair to her. Thanks for listening.

 

[overtheedge]

@Mary I'm thinking of trying a number of things from the sleeping regimen you posted on the first page of this thread [quoted at the bottom of this post] and was just wondering if you're still using those supplements as is or if there have been changes to the way you work it?

Starting to think sleep is really vital for getting over CFS or at least living with it, anything under 7 hours sleep and I'm in bed all day feeling terrible and all the benefits of any pacing done the previous days evaporate.

I've been using 1-2mg melatonin to sleep which always knocks me out but then I seem to wake up 4-6 hours in no matter what and more melatonin wont give me more sleep any more surely than taking nothing will. I've tried time release melatonin and all, thinking of trying higher doses, taking it at the same time each night regardless of how my sleep has shifted around, or trying it first thing in the morning which seems to work for some people.

I tell you having an Rx sleeping med around in case of really bad insomnia has been a lifesaver, cyclobenzaprine works for me, leaves me too groggy to use daily but being awake for 30 something hours which happens to me every year or two I'm overjoyed to get some sleep even at the cost of grogginess

From your recommendation I just bought some magnolia bark extract so I'm looking forward to trying some of that. Are there any things among your sleep regimen you consider to be more vital than the rest?

@warriorgirl - first, insomnia is one of the effects of Effexor so that may be a large part of your problem. Google Effexor and sleep or insomnia, you'll find a ton of info. There are lots of remedies for anxiety that don't include drugs with bad effects - e.g., inositol can be very calming. If you google inositol and anxiety, there's a lot of info. Hip on the board here did this post on how he eliminated his severe anxiety with 3 supplements.

If you want to raise serotonin to help with mood, 5-htp and tryptophan work well, without the negative effects of prescription anti-depressants. 5-htp also helps me with sleep.

So I don't know how effective anything will be so long as you are on Effexor.

Several things have helped me with sleep:

Seriphos - for lowering high night-time cortisol. An adrenal stress index test (uses 4 saliva samples taken during the day/evening) showed my cortisol was quite high at night causing severe insomnia. Nothing would touch this insomnia until I got my cortisol lowered. Seriphos was very effective. I found it was very important to take it in the morning however; when taken at night it caused a weird horrible insomnia, but taken in the morning it made me feel calmer during the day and helped with sleep at night. I had to titrate up to get the correct dose, which for me was quite high - 8 capsules a day (took 4 capsules twice in the a.m., before breakfast and lunch). I don't recommend anyone start with that dose, it is very high. And after a few months I was able to cut it back.

5-htp - 200 mg. before bed

melatonin

400 mg. magnesium before bed, 400 mg. more middle of the night. The form of magnesium is very important. Magnesium citrate caused insomnia for me and magnesium aspartate is not good either, the aspartate is excitatory. Magnesium glycinate worked pretty well although it ended up raising my blood pressure and magnesium malate did not work that well for me for sleep. So right now I'm using magnesium oxide, which I know is not considered the best form to take, but am running out of options. I am going to try a different form of magnesium glycinate (bisglycinate) and see if that affects my BP.

glycine -3000 mg before bed, 2000 mg middle of the night
inositol - 1000 mg before bed, 1000 middle of the night

magnolia bark - this product from Bulk Supplements is very potent. I initially tried 1/4 teaspoon before bed and 1/4 more middle of the night, and was way too drugged the next day, though that was less than the recommended dose. Now I'm taking 1/8 teaspoon before bed.

gotu kola before bed

niacin - 500 mg before bed, 400 mg middle of the night. This is a fairly high dose but I do okay with it. But I don't suggest starting with that high of a dose. The kind that makes you flush works best. I'm used to the flush and don't mind it any more, it's relaxing.

300 mg l-theanine before bed

One more thing re magnesium - a few months ago hair analysis showed that my calcium/magnesium ratio was very badly skewed in favor of calcium, though I was taking recommended doses of both. So I stopped my calcium, and started taking magnesium only at night before bed and middle of the night and it was much more effective that way.

 

[Learner1]

I've taken similar supplements but hsve found these work the best:

• 2-3g ornithine aspartate
• 2-3g l-citrulline
• Prometrium (progesterone)
• 4.5g I-glycine
• Pyridoxal-5-phosphate
• 100mg phosphatidyl serine

l'd be extremely careful with melatonin, tryptophan, and 5-HTP. They may interact with the IDO pathway.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@overtheedge @L'engle
I've always found melatonin to be OK at getting me to sleep, but like you, for no more than a few hours. From other posts here and info gathered from the UofGoogle, this is a standard problem.

Here's how I deal with it, for what it's worth. You may need to adjust the MELATONIN up or down, based on what you usually take and what your body's used to:

1/2 mg MELATONIN abt 30-45 min's before bed, along with
50 mgs magnesium glycinate (glycinate is important in order to avoid the often noted intestinal discomfort that accompanies so many other forms of mag.)

1 1/2 mg MELATONIN, along with
100 mgs mag gly

I keep 2 extra 1/2 mg MEL and 50 mgs mag gly on the bedside table for when I wake. I pop a dose immediately, follow with a second one if that doesn't work


On really bad nights, or after a protracted period of bad sleep, I add:

1/4 of a 25 mg UNISOM tablet. It's miraculously fast and effective. I also add another 1/8 to 1/4 UNISOM tab to my bedside, "if I wake" dose.

EDIT FOR PS: ....... You're totally right about the need for sleep if we have any hope of healing. It's critically essential. I've had to twist my schedule around wildly to accommodate as much room for decent sleep as pssible, but it's totally worth it. The improvements have been subtle at first, more obvious as they progress, and so far, enduring.

 

[Wishful]

Yes, melatonin will help me fall asleep for a few hours too, but not more than that. If I take it too late (after 4AM) it leaves me groggy during the day.

 

[Wishful]

l'd be extremely careful with melatonin, tryptophan, and 5-HTP. They may interact with the IDO pathway.

Is there any reason why they'd interact with the IDO pathway? In the brain, <5% of TRP goes down the TDO pathway to 5-HTP->serotonin->melatonin pathway. The other 95%+ goes down the IDO pathway.

 

[jesse's mom]

The unisom in very small doses works wonders for me. I also sleep longer taking 1T of raw unfiltered honey at bedtime. I guess it balances my blood sugar.

 

[Learner1]

Is there any reason why they'd interact with the IDO pathway? In the brain, <5% of TRP goes down the TDO pathway to 5-HTP->serotonin->melatonin pathway. The other 95%+ goes down the IDO pathway.

The melatonin is questionable. My thought is it might somehow cause a back up so serotonin can't go that way.

5-HTP and tryptophan are upstream of IDO, so adding them could definitely contribute to Phair's IDO2 trap. I have a couple of IDO2 SNPs and was on 5-HTP for sleep early on and am now thinking it's a really bad idea. There are other things to take for sleep.

 

[L'engle]

@YippeeKi YOW !! I think the above post was maybe meant for Learner1? It is quoted at me but seems to answer Learner's questions.

All the unisom did for me was help me relax and maybe nap a bit. Same for the benadryl and 5-htp. I think my problem is so wired into the calcium/magnesium vitamin d sequence that not much else touches it. Thankfully I've gotten at least 4 hrs of sleep just about every night this month, which is not great but is survivable while the basic problem wears down.

Things are still kind of rough but they aren't nearly as catastrophic as they were when I post in December. Still be many months before things normal out for me completely I think.

Thanks for your post anyway, it was about time I updated on this thread.

 

[Wishful]

5-HTP and tryptophan are upstream of IDO, so adding them could definitely contribute to Phair's IDO2 trap.

No, 5-HTP is not upstream of IDO; it's downstream of TDO. 5% of TRP goes down the TDO pathway, and the rest goes down the IDO pathway, and most of that is catalyzed by IDO1. I came across several papers mentioning that IDO activity doesn't have much effect on serotonin levels in the brain.

FWIW, I thought this was interesting: 'In another inflammation model in Ido1 and Ido2 null mutant mice, IDO2, but not IDO1, was shown to be involved in the production of autoantibodies and development of autoimmune arthritis.18 The involvement of IDO2 in the development of autoimmune arthritis has been further demonstrated with neutralizing antibodies.' So maybe IDO2 is causing some sort of autoimmune response in ME?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@L'engle
You're right. Was having a bad day, this was actually meant for @overtheedge .....

Have added @overtheedge to the post, and note with relief that he/she found it anyway, in spite of my temporary idiocy.

Thank you so much, L'engle, for noting this and thereby allowing me to correct it.

 

[overtheedge]

I've taken similar supplements but hsve found these work the best:

• 2-3g ornithine aspartate
• 2-3g l-citrulline
• Prometrium (progesterone)
• 4.5g I-glycine
• Pyridoxal-5-phosphate
• 100mg phosphatidyl serine

l'd be extremely careful with melatonin, tryptophan, and 5-HTP. They may interact with the IDO pathway.

Do you take all of those every night? Do they keep you asleep or do you have to take stuff for awakenings?
All the best

 

[Learner1]

Yes, they keep me asleep.

Citrulline and ornithine help with nitric oxide and the urea cycle.

Glycine is calming and I need it for other reasons. (GABA and theanine can be calming, too.)

Phosphatidyl serine can alter cortisol mistiming.

Progesterone is helpful in women over 40.

And I need the P5P. My doctor said to taje it before bed.

Hopefully, you can find a combo that works for you.

 

[purplelady]

I have desperately looking for some sleep. Nothing works. So far, I’ve tried:
Natural supplementation:
- magnesium
- melatonin
- Bach flowers
- chamomile
- lavender
- going to bed early.. not early ..

Medication:
- immovan
- Ativan
- Rivotril
- Trazodone
And I am on Effexor for anxiety.

I have not slept one minute since 2 months. Totally bad tripping right now.

Something working for you ?

I take Vistaril 25mg, magnesium 100mg, melatonin 1mg
Also maybe go to a sleep doctor.
Send me a private message if you want to know
what brands the supplements are.

 

[Mary]

I'm thinking of trying a number of things from the sleeping regimen you posted on the first page of this thread [quoted at the bottom of this post] and was just wondering if you're still using those supplements as is or if there have been changes to the way you work it?

@overtheedge - I just saw your tag tonight - 5 months late! - sorry, I missed it earlier! I'm taking most of the stuff in my post above. I still think niacin is helpful. One of my sisters liked it a lot when she started taking it - it sensitizes or stimulate the GABA receptors. It does cause flushing, but it's harmless - I got used to the flushing and actually started looking forward to it because it generally meant I would be asleep soon.

The magnolia bark no longer works for me - my brain probably just developed a tolerance. I had started vaping an oil that was 1:1 ratio of THC to CBD, in the middle of the night, which worked great to put me back to sleep, and now that's stopped working. I believe I've developed a tolerance to that as well. I read it shouldn't take too long to get over it, but in the meanwhile -

My new plan is a combination of grounding - having my bare feet literally on the ground or cement, hopefully 20 minutes or so 2 x a day (https://wellnessmama.com/5600/earthing-grounding/) , plus this pose: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...-to-calm-balance-ans-stimulate-thyroid.52258/

I had read a few weeks ago that grounding - being in touch with the earth - would help with sleep. At first I was very discouraged - I live in the high desert. There is no bare earth here - my yard is rock covered - but then I read that cement (if unsealed) would work and I do have cement. And I did seem to go back to sleep more quickly in the middle of the night if I had done the grounding. It's been hit and miss for me, I haven't made it a priority but want to do so. And I can vouch for the pose - I did it quite a bit 2 years ago and it did work.

So now that the magnolia bark and THC/CBD oil are leaving me high and dry (I still take most of the other stuff), I'm concentrating on grounding and the pose. I also will be using kava kava tincture and a lemon balm product from iherb which is pretty potent (https://www.iherb.com/pr/California...-European-Quality-500-mg-60-Veggie-Caps/72080) and hope to get sleep that way! I keep switching things up but have continued with the glycine, 5-htp, niacin, l-theanine, vitamin C. I forgot to mention vitamin C above - it helps scavenge excess glutamate. Resveratrol can also help with this.

 

[Wayne]

I got used to the flushing and actually started looking forward to it because it generally meant I would be asleep soon.

@Mary -- After falling asleep, did you ever dream you were looking in a mirror and saw a red face looking back at you?

Regarding sleep: -- Just this past week I went up into the National Forest near where I live, and picked a lot of St. John's Wort--primarily buds and flower, which has 90% of its potency. (My understanding is most St. John's Wort products use the whole plant, and thus would not be as potent.)

I've experimented with SJW in the past, and noticed a nice relaxation. But for some reason, this time around I'm feeling more positive effects (starting this past Tuesday). It seems to be stimulating and relaxing at the same time, and I've been experimenting with dosages (make a sun tea with it). And then last night I got some of the deepest sleep I've had in a while (no coincidence).

I think the main reason I'm noticing so much this time is that I don't think I took as much last time. But who knows? Our bodies changes with time (mine does anyway), and perhaps my body is just more amenable to it now than what it was in the past. I suspect my regular mHBOT for the past few months could be a factor as well (combining the two of them). -- But I suspect SJW could very well help others as well, since it's well known to be a calming herb.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@Mary

lemon balm product from iherb which is pretty potent

God, I sound like the constant voice of GABA doom ..... be careful with the Lemon Balm, it's strong, and it down regulates GABAa receptors, which can cause a nasty rebound effect, usually anxiety from moderate to severe. It clears thru the same P450 enzyme that valium and other benzos do (CYP3A4), and for many people, has the same GABAa down regulation effects as Valium etc.
@Wayne

I went up into the National Forest near where I live, and picked a lot of St. John's Wort--primarily buds and flower, which has 90% of its potency.

Ditto the above with St John's Wort. Watch for telltale signs, altho you may be one of the lucky ones that doesn't react to SJW negatively. In which case, a total blessing !!!

 

[Pearshaped]

regarding supplements i tried everything which is mentioned in this thread -with No help.melatonin makes me feel even worse since a few months.even if i take it only every now and then.

am currently on
triazolam(benzo)
mirtazapin(low dose)
atarax
lemon balm
Relora(with Magnolia)
Supplements which made me feel worse(warning for those with tendency to react paradoxicly
ashwaganda
rhodiola
Unisom
melatonin
diphenylhydramide
valerian and hops




supplements which made me fell much worse

 

[Mary]

God, I sound like the constant voice of GABA doom ..... be careful with the Lemon Balm, it's strong, and it down regulates GABAa receptors, which can cause a nasty rebound effect, usually anxiety from moderate to severe. It clears thru the same P450 enzyme that valium and other benzos do (CYP3A4), and for many people, has the same GABAa down regulation effects as Valium etc.

I didn't know any of this - thank you for being the constant voice of GABA doom!