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Huge energy today with Grapefruit and Ubiquinol (Coenzyme Q10). We'll see about tomorrow.

BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
hi everyone,
so after reading this thread i bought some of the "Ocean Spray 100% Juice, Ruby Red Grapefruit Blend":
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00F0T1HPI/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
And I normally take CoQ10:
https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formu...ref=sr_1_4_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1521755894&sr=8-4

I started chugging the grapefruit juice since last week, more than one glass a day ( it tasted so damn good!) .
anyways, its been a week, and i notice zero difference.
of course responses are variable as its been mentioned, just wanted to share my experience. I think negative results are results nonetheless.

H
Thank you @hmnr asg
Your post is very important. I'm still figuring out this new uptick in my energy. The more people that post their experiences (those who can and choose to try grapefruit juice with CoQ10), the better.

I'm sorry it didn't improve your fatigue. I look forward to the day when science has cured all of us and nobody has to deal with ME ever again.
 

hmnr asg

Senior Member
Messages
558
I think the tricky thing about finding causative factors in alleviation of symptoms in CFS is that the disease does weird and random things. Its easy to confuse causation with correlation in our cases because we are always trying something or taking some supplements. At any given point i'm personally taking at least 5 supplements. So its easy to suddenly see patterns when you are just merely observing the random ebbs and flows of a mysterious illness and then to attribute those fluctuations with external factors that are merely incidental.
I think the proper statistical way to probe for causation is to remove what you think is helping, and then to see if you observe an increase in symptoms. But then again, if you think something is helping, i wouldn't mess with it!

anywyas im happy i tried this, i cant get enough of the juice.

:D
 

E.man

Senior Member
Messages
196
Location
Bega Valley , Australia
Thank you for sharing @E.man
If you continue trying CoQ10 with grapefruit or grapefruit juice, please keep updating. Thanks!
Grapefruit juice.
Not good in the AM but picks up PM after this has come on. Depersonalisation in the PM too which gets worse into the evening. Not a nice feeling. Head all odd feeling. This after about 3 days.
 

BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
Started a few days ago. Initially felt improvement but now got badly down.
Thank you for sharing @E.man
If you continue trying CoQ10 with grapefruit or grapefruit juice, please keep updating. Thanks!
Grapefruit juice.
Not good in the AM but picks up PM after this has come on. Depersonalisation in the PM too which gets worse into the evening. Not a nice feeling. Head all odd feeling. This after about 3 days.

Depersonalisation is not something to fool with. If there has been an uptick in depersonalisation, then it sounds like grapefruit juice might be a negative for you and you should stop the self-experiment.
 

andyguitar

Moderator
Messages
6,595
Location
South east England
Not suprising that we are seeing a mixed bag of results. One thing we need to remember is that what might look like a bad reaction to grapefruit/Q10 could be coincidence. Also it is not going to be a quick fix for everyone, so the theraputic effect may take weeks to kick in. But we can say that the good results are NOT placebo and there is solid science to support it's benefit.
 

Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,461
Location
Great Lakes
I'm wondering if the bad reactions some might be having could be because of a citrus allergy or a histamine intolerance. I don't remember how citrus affects histamine but do remember reading it was something to avoid if that is an issue with you.
Some have mentioned quercetin working on the same mechanism as grapefruit, though less effectively. I also read somewhere that oregano oil, astragalus, and...one other thing that I cannot remember...do the same or something similar.

I'm sorry. I don't remember where I read that list. It may have been a medication article that talked about avoiding those with certain medicines the same way as you would the grapefruit. Anyway, I'm just wondering if perhaps one of those things could be substituted for the grapefruit.

**I just wanted to add like @BeautifulDay has been saying, if you have been warned about not using grapefruit juice with a medication you are taking, you might want to avoid these too. I just went back and tried to do a search of where I read that list but can't find it. Sorry.
 
Last edited:

BeautifulDay

Senior Member
Messages
372
Being the trouble maker that I am, I had a thought while watching TV with my family. Could the researchers have it wrong? Could it be something besides (or in addition to) the Bergamottin in the grapefruit juice that it increasing the absorption of the CoQ10.

Take all the following into consideration (backed-up by below studies):
1) The Japanese Study found Dole Grapefruit Juice increased absorption of CoQ10.
2) All Dole Juices are and have always been pasteurized.
3) Pasteurizing grapefruit juice decreases bergamottin to the point where it no longer increases the absorption of some drugs.

Therefore, it’s likely that it’s something beyond bergamottin in the grapefruit juice that is increasing the absorption of CoQ10. If that’s the case, then it must be something that is not significantly decreased when pasteurizing the grapefruit juice. Time for the researchers to do more studies.

Backup

In the Japanese Study, they found that “In the presence of GFJ, the basal-to-apical transport of CoQ10 was decreased and the uptake of CoQ10 was increased. These findings suggest that the combined administration of CoQ10 and GFJ could enhance CoQ10 absorption.”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030881460901245X

In that study, they used Dole Grapefruit Juice. Dole’s own corporate website states that “All DOLE Canned Juices have always been pasteurized and are commercially sterile.”
https://dolesunshine.com/company-info/faq/juices

Yet, the studies on grapefruit juice when it is pasteurized show that Bergamottin is decreased to the point where it no longer impacts the increased absorption of some medications.

Study: “Grapefruit juice (GJ) contains components that may increase the bioavailability of drugs; however, approaches to the removal of these components have been little investigated. It is known that furanocoumarin derivatives (FCs), such as bergamottin (BG) and 6′,7′-dihydroxybergamottin (DHB) in GJ, induce such drug interactions. In the present study, it was found that the heat treatment of grapefruit juice decreases concentrations of BG and DHB as well as their interactions both in vitro and in vivo. We incubated GJ for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60 min at 37, 62, 72, and 95 °C; FCs in each sample were then measured, using high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC). The concentrations of BG and DHB were decreased in a time- and temperature-dependent manner, by 82.5 and 97.9% respectively, after incubation for 1 h at 95 °C. In contrast, the concentration of bergaptrol (BT) increased in a time- and temperature-dependent manner (27.7% after 60 min at 95 °C). In addition, the effect of each GJ sample on testosterone 6β-oxidation in human liver microsomes was observed. The inhibitory effects of GJ heated to 95 °C were decreased in a time-dependent manner, as in the case of BG and DHB concentrations. Furthermore, 2 ml of GJ treated for 60 min at 95 °C was administered into the rat duodenum. After 30 min, nifedipine (NFP) was administered intraduodenally at a dose of 3 mg/kg body weight. The concentrations of NFP in the plasma samples were determined by HPLC. No significant increase in the AUC of NFP was observed in the rats given heat-treated GJ. These results suggest that the heat treatment of GJ reduces the concentrations of FCs, thus eliminating the potential for drug interactions.”
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bpb/29/11/29_11_2274/_article/-char/ja/

Study Title “A furanocoumarin-free grapefruit juice establishes furanocoumarins as the mediators of the grapefruit juice–felodipine interaction1–3”
Objective: To ascertain whether furanocoumarins mediate the GFJfelodipine interaction, a furanocoumarin-free GFJ was created and tested against orange juice and the original GFJ with respect to the oral pharmacokinetics of felodipine.
Design: With the use of food-grade solvents and absorption resins, furanocoumarins were removed (99%) from whole GFJ, whereas other major ingredients (flavonoids) were retained. In an open, 3-way, randomized crossover design, 18 healthy volunteers ingested felodipine (10 mg) with 1 of the 3 juices (240 mL). Blood was collected over 24 h. At least 1 wk elapsed between juice treatments.
Results: The median and range of the area under the curve and the maximum concentration of felodipine were significantly (P 0.001) greater with consumption of GFJ [110 (range: 58 –270) nmol · h/L and 21 (7.6 –50) nmol/L, respectively] than with that of orange juice [54 (29 –150) nmol · h/L and 7.6 (3.4 –13.9) nmol/L, respectively] or furanocoumarin-free GFJ [48 (23–120) nmol · h/L and 8.3 (3.0 –16.6) nmol/L, respectively]. GFJ, orange juice, and furanocoumarin-free GFJ did not differ significantly (P 0.09) in median time to reach maximum plasma concentration [2.5 (1.5– 6), 2.8 (1.5– 4), and 2.5 (2– 6) h, respectively] or terminal half-life [6.6 (4.2–13.6), 7.8 (4.4 –13.2), and 6.8 (2.6 –14.4) h, respectively].
Conclusion: Furanocoumarins are the active ingredients in GFJ responsible for enhancing the systemic exposure of felodipine and probably other CYP3A4 substrates that undergo extensive intestinal first-pass metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr 2006;83:1097–105.”
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-pdf/83/5/1097/23889213/znu00506001097.pdf

The immediate above study created their furanocoumarin-free grapefruit juice by:
“To facilitate the administration of the original and FC-free GFJ for clinical testing, each juice was pasteurized at 195 °F for 8 s and cold-filled in 300-mL portions into labeled 480-mL glass bottles by using a Microthermics Model 25 pasteurizer (Raleigh, NC).”

That’s a much shorter time (8 seconds at 195 degrees) of pasteurizing than the amount of time in the study immediately above it (1 hour at 95 degrees). Wikipedia states that flash pasteurization happens when “The liquid moves in a controlled, continuous flow while subjected to temperatures of 71.5 °C (160 °F) to 74 °C (165 °F), for about 15 to 30 seconds.’ So this second study is closer to flash pasteurization than the first study. All three brands of the grapefruit juice I have been drinking have been labeled pasteurized. The Wegmans brand was labeled “Flash Pasteurized”.

I may have had a little more energy on the grapefruit over the grapefruit juice. A few of my notes make me think this is the case by my energy diary. Yet it is subjective. But if grapefruit is impacting estrogen and bergamottin, whereas pasteurized grapefruit juice is not, then that could account for the slight difference. Of course, don’t lose site that the Japanese study at the top found that Dole Grapefruit Juice increased absorption of CoQ10, so don’t throw out that grapefruit juice. I just want to help out any researcher who is trying to pinpoint what the various ingredients might be that might go into a future medication. If the best med would be bergamottin plus something else, then I’d like them to figure that out.

There were signs that the grapefruit was impacting my estrogen in my body. For example, in the month that I was eating grapefruit every day, the time between my cycles increased by two days and it was significantly heavier and my face was full of a lot more acne (including hormonal acne along the chin line). Neither of the two first things has happened in years. For the last few years, as I’m approaching menopause, the time between cycles is decreasing and it is significantly lighter (except for the month on grapefruit). My acne and face is back to my normal amount of acne (not the crazy amount I had on grapefruit). With the concern that grapefruit (not grapefruit juice) increased estrogen and the possibility of increased risk for breast cancer, my self-test showed for me that grapefruit (not grapefruit juice) impacts my estrogen. I’m still sticking with grapefruit juice for now.
 

andyguitar

Moderator
Messages
6,595
Location
South east England
An interesting post @BeautifulDay. As the results vary from person to person it is possible that the grapefruit is inter-acting with something else you are taking. So I wonder if, for the benefit of readers, you could tell us what else you are taking everyday. On the subject of what is different between juice and the fruit I would put my money on something in the pith which is affected by the juicing process. I know that in TCM citrus peel is used. Just going to check what for in case my memory is not correct.
 

andyguitar

Moderator
Messages
6,595
Location
South east England
Without getting to technical about it....citrus peel is used in TCM to facilitate the movement of Qi, which to us means 'energy'. Stagnated 'energy' can cause a whole host of symptoms. It's a big subject, beyond the scope of a post here!!
 

blueberry

Senior Member
Messages
103
Location
west yorkshire
Ran out of juice and CoQ10 towards the end of last week, had ordered more CoQ10 but it was due for delivery a week ago!! And nowhere in my town seems to sell grapefruit juice anymore!! I've noticed a dip in energy since not having it. Have ordered emergency supplies elsewhere......
 
Messages
88
Elle's tried CoQ10 three times, with 2 different brands, because it's supposed to help with energy, including recently to try 'the grapefruit effect'. Each time it's coincided with (caused, we think) dizziness, nausea, stomach pains and aching. Each time the effect's been so negative she's stopped the CoQ after a few days - the longest she's lasted has been a week, last week - she never got to try the grapefruit juice as she had major stomach pains.

When tested just over a year ago, Elle wasn't deficient in CoQ10 but she's had cfs for almost 4 years.

Has anyone else experienced a bad response to CoQ10?
 

sissypop

Senior Member
Messages
194
Location
USA
I'm still doing this. While at first I thought it might be having a negative effect I think now it was probably coincidental.

But haven't had any noticeable improvement either. I'll still take it until at least I run out of it any way. And the grapefruit juice is good for you. Both should be healthy things to take.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
Has anyone else experienced a bad response to CoQ10?

I have experienced a bad response to coq10 but at a high dose of 6-800 mg. The symptoms I got were very similar to what you describe Elle as having, GI issues, pain, nausea and just an overall worsening of symptoms.

She might want to try a lower dose and very slowly work up to higher doses, as tolerated. Allowing her body more time to adjust to the changes. I have seen coq10 supps at doses of 10,15, 25 and 30 mg.

I have found 500 mg a day is incredibly helpful but I will be looking for side effects as I get closer to 600 mg a day and slow my dose increase accordingly.