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How to fix D-lactic acidosis?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by katurian, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. katurian

    katurian

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    I've been on a D-lactic acid producing probiotic for a little over a year now and am 99.9% sure it's increased my problems. I have always had difficulty with food, but I can now only eat buckwheat, salmon, and cooked carrot and squash, and even those are difficult to tolerate. I have other symptoms as well, it's a long story, but it's hard to hold onto my thoughts long enough to write down a detailed history.

    The probiotic I currently take is HMF Replete. From what I've researched, just stopping it won't make the overgrowth / acidosis go away, so I'm planning on switching to the GutPro probiotic, which contains non lactic acid producing strains and hopefully will help? I am not sure what else to do. I can tolerate very little. I'm interested in people's thoughts on how to fix my gut. If you have any specific questions about my symptoms or treatments I've tried, I can answer.
     
  2. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    sodium acetate is perhaps worth a try--you can make it by mixing baking soda and vinegar. I also make a carrot salad with vinegar and coconut oil for gut problems. The carrot has insoluble fiber which can prevent absorption of endotoxin in the gut lining and also has antibacterial properties, the vinegar and coconut oil both do too.

    High doses of thiamine are often used for lactic acidosis.
     
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  3. katurian

    katurian

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    I've heard of drinking baking soda mixed with water. Is that less effective than adding vinegar? Does the sodium acetate function essentially as an antibiotic? I don't think I can tolerate vinegar and I definitely can't do coconut oil, but I am eating carrots, so I'm glad to hear that they have so many health benefits. I also can't tolerate any B vitamins at all right now. : /
     
  4. S-VV

    S-VV Senior Member

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    Clostridium Butycurum uses lactic acid to produce butyric acid. It's comercialized in Japan by the name of Miyarisan. You can buy it via eBay or Amazon com
     
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  5. katurian

    katurian

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    Do you know if this is safe for an immune suppressed person on a high dose of steroid to take?
     
  6. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    Yes, that would not achieve the same effect as what I'm mentioning. The sodium acetate should be easier on the stomach than vinegar, but would have a possibly similar effect.

    it should cause a die off of bacteria, but that's mostly due to anecdotal reports, it should also have a beneficial effect on the kreb's cycle and lactic acidosis and decrease reductive stress.

    Why can't you handle coconut oil or vinegar?
     
  7. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    btw the properties of carrots i mention are only true with raw carrots
     
  8. katurian

    katurian

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    They simply make me feel unbearably awful. It's hard to explain beyond that. I have bad med-induced akathisia and dyskinesia and most foods and supplements have an excitatory effect on my neurotransmitters and send those conditions into overdrive.

    Well... the hopeful feeling was nice while it lasted.
     
  9. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    have you seen a CFS doctor? Limiting yourself to only those foods sounds like it could cause serious malnutrition, so treating whatever is causing those sensitivies, whether it's gut bacteria, or mast cells, etc, seems of utmost importance
     
  10. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    Some people have successfully treated D-lactic acidosis or a similar kind of condition by the ketogenic or zero carb diet, see for example this or this thread.
     
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  11. S-VV

    S-VV Senior Member

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    Good question. C. butycurum is known to be both a normal comensal bacteria, as well as a potentially pathogenic opportunist. But the problem with microbiome lactic acidosis is that it is self sustaining, meaning that bacterium that cannot tolerate low leves of lactic acid die, and only those who can tolerate the high levels (which oftentimes produce lactic acid themselves) remain
     
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  12. katurian

    katurian

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    I've not seen a CFS doctor, no. I technically do not have an official diagnosis of CFS. (I do have diagnoses of POTS, EDS, MCAS, fatty liver, colitis, etc etc, as well as SNPs, potential Lyme, and a lot of damage from a lifetime of medication.) I've given up on doctors. They have no idea at all what to do for me and only offer meds that make me sicker. The person who put me on the probiotic a year ago was a natural doctor I decided to see as a last resort. She was clueless as well.

    I know that I have severe nutrient deficiencies and I'm trying as hard as I can to fix it, but I'm caught between a rock and a hard place and I'm unsure of what to do. I was close to death for a while a little over a year ago and I don't know if or when I will be again, and nor do I know how to stop things from returning to that. Thank you for your suggestions though.

    Interesting. Do you think that a different probiotic, like this one (https://organic3.com/supplements/probiotics/gutpro/) would be effective at re-diversifying the internal landscape?
     
  13. S-VV

    S-VV Senior Member

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    Hmm, difficult to say, because Lactobacillus tend to support themselves, so if the D-lactic-acidosis was caused by lactobacillus, maybe taking in more, even if they don't produce D-lactate it wouldn't be the best option. On the other hand, these non lactate producing lacto could displace the lactate producing lacto. Sadly, there just isn't enough evidence, and its a guessing game.

    I do recomend symbioflor-2 or mutaflor. They are E.coli probiotics and you have a good chance that they will displace other lactic acid producing bacteria (enterococcus etc...). E.coli probiotics are very safe and have been used in Germany for a long time.
     
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  14. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    I just think you need to eat more than what you are eating most likely. have you tried drinking juice or smoothies for calories? If you have food sensitivity it could be alleviated by mast cell inhibitors. Coffee helps with mast cells, as well as chaga
     
  15. katurian

    katurian

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    I do need to eat more for sure, and I wish I could, but not even things like smoothies or coffee are tolerable. I do take a quercetin supplement, which is one of the strongest mast cell inhibitors, but it's contraindicated in people with CYP450 mutations, so I may not be doing myself any favours with that.
     
  16. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    I gather you haven't actually been tested for, and have elevated levels of D-lactate in the blood?

    You could similarly just be describing symptoms that can occur with having dysbiosis, GI dysmotility, malnutrition, malabsorption, or any or all of these, and where you can have tolerance issue towards a few or many things.
    If you can tolerate sweet corn or beets, you can use these as a simple test of your approximate GI transit times.
    http://www.bigpicturehealth.com/a-corny-way-to-check-bowel-transit-time/
    Your combination of conditions and symptoms paints a clear picture of it being more an autonomic dysfunction problem and a common occurence in those who have a POTS, EDS, MCAS combination is gastroparesis, delayed gastric emptying.

    As well as gastroparesis, there is a growing body of evidence that NAFLD (Non alcoholic fatty liver disease) is strongly associated with autonomic dysfunction too and has a high incidence of having sudomotor dysfunction in one study, which is another indicator of autonomic dysfunction.
    https://www.gastroendonews.com/Article/PrintArticle?articleID=44902
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25614616

    A QSART test is the usual means to test for sudomotor dysfunction. Did you happen to have this test done as part of an autonomic function test panel in diagnosing POTS or did they just do a Tilt Table Test? It might not add much to the overall diagnosis but QSART and Heart Rate Variability to Deep Breathing (HRVDB) can be abnormal with NAFLD. Abnormal HRVDB can be an indicator of vagus nerve dysfunction too, and often involves having low bp as well.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23626730
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19768633

    I see there's some other simple skin conduction tests offered for sudomotor dysfunction that might not require the involvement of being referred to a Neurologist, one from EZSCAN (Sudoscan) and the other is VITALSCAN (QBioscan), not sure how widely available they are though.
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2016.00018/full
    http://www.vitalscan.com/dtr_bioscan_sudomotor.htm
    Colitis may be the key to your gut problems though and a possible explanation for this in your case is that a lot of people with EDS have visceroptosis (sinking of the abdominal viscera (internal organs) below their natural position) where lax ligaments allow the compression of vessels supplying blood to the bowel so colitis can be due to bowel blood flow being insufficient to meet metabolic demand during the digestion process so causing Chronic Intestinal Ischemia. (The three main conditions here are SMA Syndrome, Median Arcuate Ligament Syndrome (MALS) and renal Nutcracker Syndrome).

    Get any doctor to listen to sounds in your epigastrium for any indication of a bruit (not everyone has this but can indicate a blocked bowel artery) but at least a Doppler ultrasound test to check the mesentery artery flow velocities is needed as a good screening measure but a CT Angiogram (prefereably with 3D reconstruction ability) is a more definitive test.

    If it involves celiac artery compression by the diaphragm (MALS), the occlusion might only be seen on the exhalation phase of doing deep inhalation and exhalation.
    https://gastroenterologen.no/2013/11/the-celiac-ganglion-artery-compression-syndrome-cgcs/
    I have a lot of GI issues and don't tolerate either sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) or vinegar by themselves but when mixed together and diluted further with water, it's no problem.

    (I also don't tolerate most real food but have gastroparesis, autonomic neuropathy, colitis, chronic intestinal ischemia and Nutcracker Syndrome. That's how come I know these vascular compression things affects those with EDS a lot (but which I don't have)).
     
  17. katurian

    katurian

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    I'd just like info on how to fix d-lactic acidosis and bacterial overgrowth.
     
  18. kelly8

    kelly8 Senior Member

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    @katurian , just wanted to say I was in this boat before too. I did ask to see a gi specialist who believed in mast cell disorder (as many do not). He gave me 2 medications that seemed to help the food allergies/sensitivities go away. Loratadine and ranitadine. It took a really long time, I think almost three years for me to work stuff back into my diet. Now I can eat most foods except gluten, soy, and msg. At my worst I could only eat six things and it sucked. I also had to eat autoimmune paleo for a while while my gut was healing.

    I wish I knew more about gut acidosis for you but when I did probiotics during that time I rotated a whole slew of good ones to keep my gut guessing. I hope you are able to find good answers. The people here are super knowledgeable.
     
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  19. katurian

    katurian

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    Thank you. Do you remember which probiotics you rotated?
     
  20. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    so you've tried the sodium acetate? any good reactions from it
     

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