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How to do a Gallbladder/Liver Flush (Gallstones/Calfication of Gallbladder)

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,398
Location
Austria
One side, cognitive bias.

Huch, what a tense post. Stepping a bid back, I think it isn't that one sided and easily distinguishable black and white, however it appears that way after Kina's inquiries. However, there are black sheep on both sides. With the only difference that one side has a larger industry behind, do actively spread confusion:


Buyer beware.
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,385
Location
Southern California

@Kina - neither of us is going to convince the other of anything. I don’t consider SBM and quackwatch to be credible sources as you do, but I’m not going to debate it. Britt Marie Hermes quit naturopathy when she discovered her boss was importing a foreign substance to use in cancer treatment. Well, how about the oncologist who administered chemo to patients who didn’t need it, because he made thousands of dollars off of them? Are all oncologists therefore evil? (I consider that evil, to administer poison under the guise of medical authority in order to make money) There are horror stories in every profession.

I don’t think it’s science-based to summarily dismiss the experiences of millions who have benefitted from naturopaths, chiropractors, Oriental medicine and so on. To me it’s the equivalent of all the doctors and medical institutions who have dismissed the very ill people with ME/CFS for decades because nothing shows up on standard blood work.

Mainstream medicine is brilliant in many ways, but it can also be barbaric in many of its drugs and treatments. I think CAM could be a very valuable adjunct here, but that’s not going to happen until proponents of SBM become willing to look outside the box. Until that time comes, we all lose.
 

Oberon

Senior Member
Messages
214

I think it completely depends on the Naturopath. I've been to 5 different Naturopaths in my life. One I was ready to walk out of during the appointment because it was complete quackery. The other 3 didn't present research, but did have some logic behind their supplement recommendations.

The last one I've seen, quite literally showed me studies during the appointment behind the supplements they recommended. They also said don't waste your money with Naturopath testing because in their 20 year career they've never once seen it lead to astounding results in a patient.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
I think it completely depends on the Naturopath. I've been to 5 different Naturopaths in my life. One I was ready to walk out of during the appointment because it was complete quackery. The other 3 didn't present research, but did have some logic behind their supplement recommendations.

The last one I've seen, quite literally showed me studies during the appointment behind the supplements they recommended. They also said don't waste your money with Naturopath testing because in their 20 year career they've never once seen it lead to astounding results in a patient.

yes, I've been to 2 naturopaths and both were pretty lame & expensive... however, one of them was also a nurse practitioner, so I wonder what the "black and white view of the world" people would say about her??

.... Also, Dr Kaufman suggests non rx products, like Iberogast (sp?) so why the "black and white view of the world" ppl are endorsing him or OMI??

The esteemed Mayo Clinic recommends antidepressants, sleeping pills, GET, pacing, and therapy for CFS.. If you're the one who says doctors & science are always right and you're not on this protocol, I don't see how that's not hypocritical.

Whether Alt or Traditional, buyer beware. I've had bad experiences w both, and neither is perfect. Why wouldn't you take the best of both??
 

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
i said before i don't intend to debate this. you can write all the reasons a person shouldn't do it and let them decide. it's only an option for them to consider. at minimum, it can be used for further research. As long as they research this option before they consider getting their gallbladder removed then the post has served it's purpose.

they could maybe go the rowachol route ...
https://www.researchgate.net/public...possible_treatment_for_cholesterol_gallstones


separate from this gallbladder topic is conventional medicine and it's so called "science based" approach. there is just so much to write on that topic. i rather try to focus on finding cures for things and try to help people till my last breath.
 

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
@prioris thanks for making this info available. I am currently reading the book "Clean" by Dr. Junger and there seems to be a lot to gain from "aiding" the body's detox system to expel toxins, and he claims that many get their energy back from cleaning the liver. Have you experienced any such effects from your cleanses so far?

Reading about gallstone flushes earlier I came to the understanding that there might be two "types" of gallstones, 1) the real pre-existing gallstones and 2) the "gallstones" created during the flush. Is this correct? Are the "created gallstones" just balls of assempled sludge and toxins that are released from the liver during the flush?

Ingesting epsom salt seems pretty "intense", and I wonder if you see any potential health risks that might result from a short cleanse like this? PS! Dr. Junger suggests a more slow working detox protocol that takes 3 weeks.


As far as the liver, i went thru detoxing decades ago so energy thing wasn't a problem like it was back then. most of the detox methods for liver back then were weak and inefficient. so i can't say whether what i did for liver inflammation recently would effect that but therapeutic dose siliphos and ppc are to me a MUST do thing if one is going to do a liver cleanse. Nice thing is that it is relatively quick... a few weeks. whoever does it should post their results in that thread. i couldn't tell how it would help a person except for fatty liver and related inflammation.

the liver cleanses and supplements have for decades talked about detox but hardly anything about fat. that has irked me.

There are people who claim that the gallstones are not real gallstones hence created by the flush. that opinion came from some conjecture from one unnamed lab technician. Based on anecdotal reports, i don't think it is true but i would never preclude it as a possibility in some subset of people until there is research done on it to prove it. it really doesn't matter. this isn't about proving or disproving anything. you try it and see if it works for you. if it doesn't, you move on. any debates are pretty pointless.

What's more important is whether it helped improved or solve your particular health situation in terms of symptoms or xrays or whatever. There is no guarantee it will work. Even if hundreds of actual gallstones came out, if it didn't improve your health situation then it is still moot. This is a trial and error approach to improving health.

Epsom salt not for detox but to clear the way for any stones or anything that comes out and to relax a persons muscles hence help whatever is in them come out easier.

I thought ingesting epsom salt would be intense too until I did it. It just floods your body with magnesium and maybe produces some diarrhea. Heck, people ingest milk of magnesia. People can look up the side effects to magnesium and contraindications. For people on medications, that is something they need to research. People can tweak the process for their own situation. What people can do is search out Dr Junger and see what he has to say. They can consider his perspective.

The first time is about demystifying the process because we are going into the unknown ... we never did this before and we don't know what will happen because people have different situations. For most people, it's uneventful. after that, they wait in anticipation of what will come out when they poop. After the first time, it becomes more second nature. they can customize things more too.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
I find this thread very upsetting.

From what I've seen, having a properly functioning gall bladder is a very good thing, and one needs to care for one's gall bladder and keep it healthy.

I have no idea whether a gall bladder flush works or not. I have my doubts, but am willing to consider the theory. It'd be useful to look at how to prevent gallstones in the first place and how-to encourage optimum bile production and flow and was hoping to read more about these on this thread and I'm thankful that @prioris started it.

What I find upsetting is that sick people who share a need to find wellness would be bashing practitioners and modalities which might actually be able to help them, and praising websites like SBM, which seems to be populated many closed minded, arrogant doctors who have no interest in actually helping patients get well and are more interested in proving to each other how smug they are.

There are significant problems with "evidence based medicine." We are all genetically unique individuals, with unique environmental factors that may result in different outcomes for different patients. The people on this site seem to be more fragile than the general population - I have no reason to believe anything that works for a bunch of identical widgets will work for me, as I've suffered side effects from many things that don't bother other people.

I will, however, look at studies, whether large, double blind, etc. or simply individual case studies and think critically about whether something might work for me and try to understand the theory or mechanism.

As a patient, I want a toolbox full of tools to help me get well. What works for someone else may not work for me and vice versa. I don't need other people editing/censoring ideas down to only what they approve of, I want to hear all ideas that may help.

Many drugs are approved based on tests done only on men...if you're a woman, the same drug may work differently, and perhaps more dangerously on you. And not all trials are reported in studies...some are omitted as they didn't make the correct point the authors wanted to make.

There are political forces at work to bash many valid treatments. These interests have their own profits as a strong motive. They're big advertisers in major media, and can get articles suppressed. Some substances can't be patented and so there's no payback for clinical trials. Some substances were brought into use before the FDA.

As patients, we need to be curious, do our research, and look at different evidence and opinions. We are struggling to get well. I'd hate to miss the one thing that will finally cure me because it was bashed in SBM, didn't have the right study, or I didn't want to listen to the source.

My naturopathic doctor has helped me far more than any MD, aside from my oncology surgeon, to date. He's run conventional (LabCorp, Quest) and other tests, prescribed hormones, antibiotics, antivirals, nutrients, botanicals, and ozone therapies which have helped me. It's entirely legal where I live (Washington state) and I am very grateful. Everything he's done is rooted in science, and I've always been able to identify studies that support everything he does.

Many of these things are bashed on SBM, Quackwatch and similar sites. All I can say is, if you don't want to get well, keep reading those sites... they'll scare you away from many valid treatments.

I'm very grateful to read different peoples opinions, but find it upsetting when people who don't have factual information vehemently bash good ideas. It might be best to seek out the truth instead...there are always other points of view and other sources of evidence... and what you learn may surprise you.

Now, about gall bladders, I've been interested in this theory... I think he's on to something...

http://www.beyondmthfr.com/side-high-oxalates-problems-sulfate-b6-gut-methylation/
 
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Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
There are people who claim that the gallstones are not real gallstones hence created by the flush. that opinion came from some conjecture from one unnamed lab technician.

Well here is a named professor of medicine who points out that they cannot possibly be gallstones for basic medical reasons.

Try this priori: add some cochineal red dye to the olive oil and see what comes out. I think you will find what comes out is red congealed olive oil-based lumps. If it were gallstones the cochineal would not penetrate them. Give it a try. I doubt there is anything danger about this. It is just a load of nonsense.
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
My naturopathic doctor has helped me far more than any MD, aside from my oncology surgeon, to date. He's run conventional (LabCorp, Quest) and other tests, prescribed hormones, antibiotics, antivirals, nutrients, botanicals, and ozone therapies which have helped me
By all means, read up on ozone therapy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_therapy

It is not based on science just like liver detox and gallbladder cleanse. Liver is not dirty. And swallowing a whole bunch of olive oil may not be suitable for everybody. Moreover the problem with alternative therapies for people having major issues with their body is that it delays medical care and it delays serious diagnosis. It reminds me of a patient who underwent so many colon irrigations because something was wrong with her bowels. When she made for chemo, she was stage 4 colon cancer.

People recommend remedies to others all the time on this forum without knowing the whole patient history, and without sufficient knowledge about whether what helps them is actually reproducible and by assuming that everybody in here is truly suffering from ME and assuming if it works for them it would work on others too.

It is a policy of the forum that no medical advice should be given. It is in place for a reason, to ensure everyone here is safe.
 
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ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
People recommend remedies to others all the time on this forum without knowing the whole patient history

I don't think anyone here has the expectation that someone on a forum can give them everything they need, or even that every idea shared is an appropriate for another community member. But maybe I'm wrong...

It is a policy of the forum that no medical advice should be given. It is in place for a reason, to ensure everyone here is safe.

I've been on this forum for several years and have never confused information from another member for "medical advice"... and I'm responsible for my own safety.

Speaking of safe, "first do no harm" is BS, and I am just as cautious w drugs as anything else.. I've taken medicine from reputable doctors that has screwed up my gut even more. I think side effects are way under-reported (I'm looking at you, prednisone, and several others). Not at all against drugs, just against dogma & greed.
http://archive.jsonline.com/news/he...ed-study-authors-find-qd3kfnn-136625848.html/

I learned about Dr Fasano's work on this forum, and finally understood leaky gut from the posts here.... No medical doctor (of any specialty) has brought up leaky gut.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/new-re...-is-real-may-be-the-cause-of-several-diseases
 

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
>As a patient, I want a toolbox full of tools to help me get well.
EXACTLY. we build thru trial and error.

The phrase "medical advice" gets thrown around but there are hidden agendas behind such phrases. It really there to muzzle people and definitely not there to protect people. In the real world, toxic treatments and most unnecessary surgery are protected by the court systems because their sanctioned by the medical establishment associations. Natural medicine isn't. a doctor takes great risk in prescribing natural and alternative medicine legally and medical boards. This is orwellian world we live in.

Everyone here knows full well we are not some official expert with a title. we are just an idea box. people can consider the idea. i think that is fairly well understood. If i can add awareness of a possible tool or idea that a person then i've done my personal mission. The problem with the internet is that finding or becoming aware of things is not always easy due to the search engines. When i research something, i'd like to post a synopsis of what i find and think to save someone else the time.

when people are sick, it impairs their ability to research things. there are these little nuggets of information buried all over the place especially with regard to these flushes that aren't easy to seek out. plus it's not organized well, scattered and and worst of all leaves unanswered many basic questions.

>Well here is a named professor of medicine who points out

well if i have to decide between someone sitting in academia to solve a health problem or countless anecdotal reports, i discard the professor in the waist basket. the professor may spout technical truths on some level but the people experimenting with their own bodies will have far more useful and practical information. Unless that professor is actually doing real research with real people (or some life form) with these cleanses to see what actually happens, they are mostly useless.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
The phrase "medical advice" gets thrown around but there are hidden agendas behind such phrases. It really there to muzzle people and definitely not there to protect people.
No, it's there to protect people and the forum from being sued.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
By all means, read up on ozone therapy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_therapy

It is not based on science just like liver detox and gallbladder cleanse.
Wikipedia isn't the most accurate source for info on alternative modalities as anyone can edit it.

I've had 3 types of ozone therapy and found it very useful. It is a valid, well researched and used in Cuba, Russia, Germany, and even in the US.

http://healmindbody.com/wp-content/...he-Cure-that-time-forgot-Complete-article.pdf

Liver is not dirty.
According the National Library of Medicine:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072577/

"It also takes up toxic substances and converts them into harmless substances or makes sure they are released from the body."

As some people die from poisoning, we can be sure that the liver doesn't remove 100% of toxins 100% of the time.

And swallowing a whole bunch of olive oil may not be suitable for everybody. Moreover the problem with alternative therapies for people having major issues with their body is that it delays medical care and it delays serius diagnosis. It reminds me of a patient who underwent so many colon irrigations because something was wrong with her bowels. When she made for chemo, she was stage 4 colon cancer.
All the patients I know use western and alternative medicine together. It is foolish to rely solely on one or the other. It is prudent to research any potential treatment thoroughly before submitting to it.

I've seen cancer patients on my cancer journey who died pitiful deaths from the side effects of chemotherapy and radiation without the benefits of nutritional therapies that were so beneficial to me in beating my cancer.

And the "evidence based" "national standard of care" conventional cancer treatment I had for stage 3 uterine cancer gave me permanent lymphedema and triggered my CFS by impacting my immune system and causing a flare up of 6 opportunistic infections. My oncologist was puzzled and I've been to 3 cancer survivorship clinics who said "Gee, so sorry... we can't help, but here's a referral for CBT to help you cope better."

Western medicine is a little short on answers. There are valid modalities with decades or more of positive history that have developed across the world that mainstream doctors aren't aware of, just as there are new discoveries every day funded by big pharma and large medial institutions.

It pays to be curious and check out unfamiliar ideas and wisely choose appropriate ones to use.

People recommend remedies to others all the time on this forum without knowing the whole patient history, and without sufficient knowledge about whether what helps them is actually reproducible and by assuming that everybody in here is truly suffering from ME and assuming if it works for them it would work on others too.
We agree on this point. And here's a wonderful example in western medicine about why following what's recommended by "evidence based medicine" can be problematic, and a patient whose life was saved by deviating from the standard of care:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-07-28/big-data-shows-big-promise-in-medicine
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,398
Location
Austria
Well, for me its take the best and leave the rest.

Dozens conventional doctors provided me with numerous referrals, irreversible (in their opinion) disease diagnosis, no treatment with a better number needed to treat than Russian roulette, and - the only real value - laboratory testing.

Only tried once a paid-for Internist/Naturopath, who was the first interested in a whole medical history. But beside that, nothing really of value. Just meant I just should keep doing what I already was doing. He would do the same if me.

So there I am with numerous laboratory results (which my GP ether doesn't know or has the time to interpret) to monitor my own interventions and the functional medicine concept of root cause resolution with natural compounds (ie. Orthomolecular and herbal medicine).

This way on my own after 9 years on that path (lonely, if there wouldn't be the Internet) it was possible:
  • first of all - to reverse a 60% walking disability from PAD
  • reverse a cystitis circumscripta of the bladder
  • .. 2 non-circulated nodules on the right edge of the liver (5 + 8mm)
  • .. one additional tubercle (6mm) of the lung
  • .. and a chronic bronchitis, while the at that time diagnosed COPD stayed asymptomatic
  • keep prediabetes, hay-fever, muscle-cramps and CKD stage 1 in check
  • cease psoriasis flare-ups and angina-like chest pains
  • provide sun-burn protection without suncream
  • but overall staying still alive and able to come up for my own living counter the prediction of my initially diagnosing internist
Only left to work on is CFS/ME..

All that not really within the agenda of evidence based conventional medicine. All they seem interested is to see me that sick, for being able to offer invasive surgery and lifelong medications without hope for remission. Though without any integrity, what an incredible business model!

Just take the best and leave the rest.
 

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
No, it's there to protect people and the forum from being sued.

It is the powers that be nefarious agendas that allow such suits to take place so it is there for only legal reasons. It is not there to protect people's health.
 
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ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
More showing why "evidence based medicine" doesnt work the same for everyone... its not a medical journal source but they make some interesting points:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/medicine-is-getting-more-precise-for-white-people/

infuriating, but not surprising... "chronic disease" includes immune diseases, which cut across all races... However, mostly still women, so I guess that's why the current "handmaid's tale" administration doesn't care...plus, drug companies have no motivation to fund studies for ppl who are less likely to afford their meds.. This is the result of the "let the market decide" mantra of the ayn randian right, who are also pushing this idea that chronic illness is solely caused by bad choices... Wake up: immune illnesses are genetic, and affect 66% of Americans..

2m* opioid addicts and 1-2m** CFS'ers.... let that soak in... from now on, every time you hear about the opioid epidemic, imaging they're talking about CFS! It's really disappointing that CFS doesn't get it's research due, not just for us, but because I believe that CFS research will benefit other immune illnesses.

* https://www.asam.org/docs/default-source/advocacy/opioid-addiction-disease-facts-figures.pdf
** 1-2m depending on which est you pay attention to... the CDC est is 1m: https://www.cdc.gov/features/cfsawarenessday/index.html
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
infuriating, but not surprising... "chronic disease" includes immune diseases, which cut across all races... However, mostly still women, so I guess that's why the current "handmaid's tale" administration doesn't care...plus, drug companies have no motivation to fund studies for ppl who are less likely to afford their meds.. This is the result of the "let the market decide" mantra of the ayn randian right, who are also pushing this idea that chronic illness is solely caused by bad choices... Wake up: immune illnesses are genetic, and affect 66% of Americans..
This just came out showing the pitfalls of evidence based medicine...

https://www.statnews.com/2017/08/02/randomized-controlled-trials-medical-research/
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
The term science based medicine gets thrown around but let's just take a quick look outside of medicine where you'd think there would be more truth

Here are some statements. Which one of them is false

A) The electron exists
B) Magnetism attracts

They are both false. The giants of the 20th century in electrical research Tesla,Maxwell,Faraday,Heaviside,Steinwetz said A and B are false but conventional science declares otherwise. Tesla's greatest discovery was understanding what electricity was.

Conventional astronomy has the universe modeled on lies (gravity). That model is collapsing. The universe is electric where Birkeland currents are at the foundation. They create the planets, suns and galaxies. The Sun is a essentially a unipolar electromagnet motor with solid core and is powered by Birkeland currents from the outside.
There are a lot of deep problems (grand lies) all over science.