How do you treat overmethylation?

[CCC]

It's not about believing you.

Overmethylation due to MTHFR defects is waaay outside my experience.

All I can suggest is that if you are going to try anything, take one new thing at a time and initially in very low doses (even just a crumb). I've read people's accounts here who have messed themselves up badly by taking too much too quickly.

This has nothing to do with believing you. We're just trying to help on a thread that failed to get an initial response.

All the best.

 

[Fred Smith]

anyway anyone know what the supplements mentioned on here are for and are they necessary?http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01/

Also can someone confirm if folinic acid is important ?

There are [/B]two three four things you can do to quickly quench most of the methylfolate side effects:

1. Consider 50 to 100 mg of niacin as nicotinic acid. Why? Niacin is broken down by SAMe. This means that excessive SAM is quenched by taking niacin. Niacin also helps transform folates – especially unreduced folates. There are many other things niacin does as well – beyond my understanding. I continue to look for them and will update this as I learn more.
   • NOTE: You may experience flushing for 20 to 30 minutes. This is not harmful. It simply makes you feel ‘warm’ everywhere.
2. Consider liposomal curcumin to help quench inflammation. If one takes methylfolate before inflammation is controlled, the methylfolate will worsen it. One may consider taking 2 capsules of Optimal Turmeric three times a day during times of inflammation.
3. Consider Hydroxocobalamin as it is an excellent sponge for reducing nitric oxide levels. Methylfolate increases nitric oxide levels – which is why it is so effective in reducing headaches, pain, cardiovascular disease risk, thrombosis, preeclampsia, periodontal disease, etc – but at the same time, excessive nitric oxide levels are harmful as they end up producing serious radical damage via peroxynitrite. Hydroxocobalamin quenches nitric oxide quite effectively. Hydroxocobalamin also works to reduce hydrogen sulfide levels (great for those with high sulfate-reducing bacteria or sulfur-smelling stools/diarrhea).
4. Limit intake of leafy greens until side effects go away. This is because leafy green also contain methylfolate and nitrates.
5. Electrolytes – as methylfolate increases, so does cell division and when that happens, electrolyte deficiency can occur. Taking Optimal Electrolyte helps knock out some of these side effects. There is also some niacin in the electrolyte blend.
6. Glutathione – as cells divide with more methylfolate, glutathione levels get further depleted. Restoring levels can help significantly. Do it SLOWLY though. Consider Optimal Liposomal Glutathione.

“If I cannot tolerate methylfolate or methylcobalamin, what forms of each could I tolerate?”

I get this question a ton.

If this is the case, perhaps you need to just stop taking any form of folate and B12 for a while. You’ll need to evaluate with your healthcare professional.

The other option is to take other active forms of folate and vitamin B12 which are not methylated.

Since you are not tolerating methylfolate or methylcobalamin, then perhaps you’d do well without the methylated forms.

This is possible.

Folinic acid is an active form of folate that is not methylated.

Hydroxocobalamin is a recognized natural form of vitamin B12 that is not methylated.

 

[Fred Smith]

Just for information the classic Histapenia Treatment protocol is as follows:
Histapenia treatment involved raising histamine with the amino acid histadine plus B3, B12 and folic acid,
and also lowering copper with zinc, manganese and C. The amino acid histadine actually reduces zinc availability, so you must use very high doses of zinc to combat the high copper and overcome the binding effect of histadine.

• Histadine 500 mg half an hour before each meal and one before bed, to elevate histamine.
• Niacin B3 (not if you have liver damage) 500 mg twice a day with meals.
• Folic acid 800 µg twice a day.
• B 12 500 µg twice a day.
• Zinc 25 mg twice a day.
• B6 50 mg
• Vitamins C 500-1000 mg twice a day.
• Manganese 10 mg once a day.
• For the above combination to work you also need adequate levels of essential fatty acids at 1 to 2 teaspoons of quality fish oil per day.
• Optional quercetin 300 mg one with each meal.

can anyone confirm this is true?^

http://www.balancingbrainchemistry....a-Histadelia-Under-methylation-Pyroluria.html

another link says:

Treatment of Histapenia
High doses of zinc, manganese, Vit C, niacinamide, Vit B12 and folic acid.

http://www.dietwiseacademy.com/pdf/histadelia-histapenia.pdf

Treatment
-Treatment focuses on increasing histamine, reducing methylation, decreasing copper and supporting metal metabolism.

Vitamin B3: Essential to cerebral circulation and metabolism, histamine production and copper elimination; traps methyl molecules. Average doses is 500 to 1500 mg.
B12 and folic acid: help produce histamine
-Vitamin C: promotes copper excretion
-Zinc, manganese, molybdenum-all inhibit absorption and promote bile excretion of copper.
-Vitamin B6: helps form GABA, supports B12 absorption and zinc metaboism
-Pantothenic Acid-helps keep copper levels low

https://orthomolecularinfo.wordpress.com/nutrients/biotypes/#Histapenia

• Tryptophan: Converts to serotonin, a calming neurotransmitter that corrects sleep disturbances and lowers agitation.
• Zinc: Inhibits absorption of copper and permits storage of histamine.
• Buffered Vitamin C: Excretes copper, protects against copper oxidizing brain tissue.
• Niacin (B-3) : Raises histamine levels
• Folic Acid: Produces histamine
• Vitamin B12 : Produces histamine
• Manganese: Inhibits absorption of copper
• Histidine: Raises histamine levels.
• Quercetin: Helps to store histamine

why do they say tryptophan here? overmethylators already produce too much serotonin why would we need more?

http://info.healthrecovery.com/hrc-blog/a-closer-look-at-a-low-histamine-histapenia-biochemistry

So basically overmethylators need to boost their histamine levels.
so if I intent on raising histamine, I take l-histidine or l-carnosine (histamine precursors)?

https://iovercome-depression.blogspot.se/2014/11/histapenia-overmethylation-and-its.html
lots of different treatments here^

Treatment usually revolves around vitamin B3 as either niacin or niacinamide; folic acid; cobalamine (part of the vitamin B12 group); vitamins B6 and C; zinc; and manganese. Most histapenics experience major improvement within six weeks, but a year of treatment is commonly required before the last symptom (usually paranoia) can be overcome.

http://superiorsites3.com/NNS91BiochemTreatment.htm

Doctors Pfeiffer, Hoffer, Walsh and other orthomolecular physicians have, in over ten thousand schizophrenic patients with histapenia (and here), found the following nutrients and other approaches almost always beneficial, roughly grouped around the following symptoms:
Vitamin B3 — Critical to brain circulation and metabolism, histamine production, metal metabolism, copper elimination. Antioxidant. Niacin increases reuptake of dopamine, suppressing dopamine activity. (Walsh) May create a flush.
Vitamin C — Promotes copper excretion, protects brain tissue from oxidation.
Vitamin B6 and/or P5P — May be even more important than B3 in children. Helps form GABA, serotonin, glutathione, CoQ10. Antioxidant. Supports B12 absorption, zinc metabolism. May help decrease available methyl.
Folic acid — Counterbalances and traps methyl. Folic acid enhances dopamine reuptake, decreasing availability in the synapse. (Walsh)
Vitamin B12 — As hydroxy- or cyano-cobalamin. Note: Methyl-cobalamine increases methylation so can be problematic for histapenics -- who are already overmethylated.
Zinc — Inhibits copper absorption and promotes its excretion. Facilitates histamine storage. Antioxidant. Helps maintain GABA levels and supports GABA function.
http://naturalhealingforschizophrenia.blogspot.se

very good sources on Histapenia (low histamine)http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C376401.html
(you might get a warning but its false)
& http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/the-low-down-on-histamine/
https://area1255.blogspot.se/2014/08/low-histamine-levels-disturbing_5.html
http://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/methylation-and-anxiety-histadelia-and-histapenia/
http://credence.org/ECpages/?page_id=1884
http://www.drkaslow.com/html/histadelia.html
http://www.uncommonforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=39606
http://archive.is/wDVYU
http://www.adnuther.com/2012/06/conditions-to-consider/
https://www.celiac.com/gluten-free/topic/60198-undermythalted-and-overmyethlated-for-celiacs/
http://blog.nmrc.ca/mindcheck-weekly-histamine-imbalances/
http://www.afibbers.org/conference/session20.pdf
http://www.moodocean.co.uk/html/neurotransmitters.html
https://riordanclinic.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/89023762_jom.pdf
https://www.pharmaceutical.co.nz/histamine/
http://adoptbiomed.blogspot.se/2007/04/methylation-overview.html
https://www.thundersplace.org/mens-sexual-health/retarded-ejaculation-4.html
http://davidjernigan.blogspot.se/2015/07/histamine-intolerance-not-allergies-may.html
https://www.buzzfeed.com/victoriag4...iculous-d-46xi?utm_term=.qhE11Wnpq#.nhwaaeoRj
https://metabolichealing.com/histamine-allergies-brain-gut-health/
http://www.hwofc.com/methylation.html
https://area1255.blogspot.se/2014/08/how-to-tell-if-you-are-low-histamine-or.html
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/histamine-methylation-kleon-tona-1

google books:
( https://books.google.se/books?id=X0...W44PBDoAQhaMAc#v=onepage&q=histapenia&f=false & https://books.google.se/books?id=ED...E84FBDoAQhfMAc#v=onepage&q=histapenia&f=false)

To reduce the excess copper, if not using histidine, supplement the diet with vitamin C, zinc, chromium, manganese, and molybdenum
http://barbfeick.com/healing_autism/solutions/Histamine.html

overmethylation discussed :
http://forums.prohealth.com/forums/index.php?threads/l-histidine-for-allegies.140581/

SUPPLEMENTS:

Vitamin C, vitamin B6, P5P, Zinc, Niacinamide, Folate, vitamin B12, vitamin E

 

[Basilico]

overmethylators already produce too much serotonin why would we need more?

So basically overmethylators need to boost their histamine levels.

I'm not an expert on this. I can only share my personal experience.

The best form of B12 to take is methylB12. However, people who are overmethylators often have trouble tolerating this form. My husband is an overmethylator. At first, he couldn't tolerate methylB12, so he started taking very tiny amounts of it and slowly increased over time. Now, he can take methylB12 with no problem.

I don't know about overmethylation being linked to serotonin - I have never heard of this before.

And I have never heard of overmethylators needing to boost histamine. My husband, who is an overmethylator, has chronic problems with having too much histamine. He is very prone to getting histamine reactions like hives and seasonal allergies. He also had a problem eating foods that contained/released histamine. I don't think it is a good idea to try to increase histamine - that may cause you a lot of problems.

You can't "cure" or "fix" a genetic overmethylation problem. The best you can do is try to take the vitamins that your body needs in a very careful way to avoid triggering bad side effects. One way to do this is to start with very, very small amounts and slowly increase (if possible).

The methylation cycle is extraordinarily complex. Most doctors don't really understand it. So, many of the questions you are asking have very complex answers, and those answers will depend on a lot of other factors. For now, instead of getting overwhelmed with a million different supplements, just focus on the basic methylation protocol, use small doses, and increase very slowly. Everybody reacts differently to the methylation supplements, whether they are under- or overmethylators. There is no one right protocol for everyone, you must see how your body reacts and adapt to that.

 

[Fred Smith]

Anyone tried this? they sell overmethylation caps
https://custommedicine.com.au/shop/products/over-methylator-caps-100/

 

[Fred Smith]

ok so I will be taking:
nicotinic acid (flush kind) - 1000mg Daily
Hydroxo B12 - 1mg Daily
Electrolytes - (No idea, help?)
Glutathione - 1000mg daily
Folinic acid - 1600mg daily
Histidine - 1000mg daily
zinc - 50mg daily
Manganese - 10mg daily
Vitamin c - 2000mg daily
b6 (as P5P) - 50mg daily
molybdenum -500 mcg daily
Pantothenic - 1000mg daily
Quercetin - 2000mg daily
vitamin E - 1000mg daily
chromium - 200 mcg daily

carnosine (do I need this if I already take Histidine? both raise histamine lvls right? would combining both be beneficient?) - 1000mg daily

I will start with nicotinic acid , folinic acid and hydroxo b12 first and see how it goes.

 

[Eastman]

@farshad

Most of the dosages you mention are quite high. Most people advise starting low and raising the dosage slowly.

 

[Fred Smith]

to each their own but this is what i read to be most effective. also better safe than sorry. If your overmethylation is genetics you would want the highest possible healthy doses so it actually has an impact.

 

[Fred Smith]

it says :

• For the above combination to work you also need adequate levels of essential fatty acids at 1 to 2 teaspoons of quality fish oil per day.

what kind of fish oil? will omega 3 fish oil work?

also is there any reason to why you need it for it work?

 

[Basilico]

to each their own but this is what i read to be most effective. also better safe than sorry. If your overmethylation is genetics you would want the highest possible healthy doses so it actually has an impact.

It seems like you have already decided what you want to do and are not really considering the advice given here. "Better safe than sorry" would be doing the opposite of what you are about to try. Ultimately, you will do what ever you have your mind set on, but I'm not really sure why you are posting here if you already know what you want to do.

 

[CCC]

It seems like you have already decided what you want to do and are not really considering the advice given here. "Better safe than sorry" would be doing the opposite of what you are about to try. Ultimately, you will do what ever you have your mind set on, but I'm not really sure why you are posting here if you already know what you want to do.

This. The science is not settled: no one can predict how your body will react to any particular supplement. You have the theory of how it should work, but that's all.

People here have had better outcomes if they started at a very low dose then build up. How fast and how high depends on what your body needs. No one knows what their ideal dose is.

Please, please take it slowly. You can build up to whatever dose works for you, but take it slowly so you don't risk doing damage.

 

[Fred Smith]

Anyone else got opinions or tips for me besides the dosing? Like am I going in the right direction?

 

[Fred Smith]

guys whats the name for overmethylation in genetic MTHFR variation. Like there is a mthfr gene called MTHFR A1298C. whats the one for overmethylation callled?

 

[Fred Smith]

no help? I guess i am on my own.

 

[Hip]

Im trying to treat fatigue, depression , anxiety, .

I have tries a lot of prescribed medication they didnt work.. I have tried almost everything and overmethylator really fits my description i am very sure about this.

You say you fit the description of an overmethylator, but this concept of undermethylation or overmethylation leading to mental symptoms is not hard science, it is a very speculative area that lacks solid evidence. That's putting it politely: others might say it is a large part mumbo jumbo. So you don't want to place to much importance on it.

By all means try the supplements that reduce methylation. If they help, great; if they don't, then you may want to move on, and explore other ways to treat your symptoms, which you say are fatigue, anxiety and depression.

What drug and supplement treatments have you tried for the anxiety and depression?

 

[CCC]

guys whats the name for overmethylation in genetic MTHFR variation. Like there is a mthfr gene called MTHFR A1298C. whats the one for overmethylation callled?

I'm not sure we have a lot of people with MTHFR mutations overmethylating without supplements here.The MTHFR mutations all work to slow things down, not speed them up. Well, that's my understanding anyway.

@Hip has explained it very well.

 

[Fred Smith]

You say you fit the description of an overmethylator, but this concept of undermethylation or overmethylation leading to mental symptoms is not hard science, it is a very speculative area that lacks solid evidence. That's putting it politely: others might say it is a large part mumbo jumbo. So you don't want to place to much importance on it.

By all means try the supplements that reduce methylation. If they help, great; if they don't, then you may want to move on, and explore other ways to treat your symptoms, which you say are fatigue, anxiety and depression.

What drug and supplement treatments have you tried for the anxiety and depression?

SSRI,SNRI,MAOI (Nardil)
Some herb supplements
some other meds like lyrica etc some more but I forgot
the only thing that seems to work a little is phenibut my goal is to take it for like 2 weeks in hope that it will decrease my amygdala activity which means less serotonin will be used there which I hope leads to less social anxiety. i also have ocd but i dont think its such a big deal as the other 3

 

[Hip]

@farshad
Are you saying that you have social anxiety, or it is generalized anxiety disorder that you have? The difference between them is explained a bit in this post.

For social anxiety, choline bitartrate 500 mg to 1000 mg works well for some people.


I myself suffered from moderate to severe generalized anxiety disorder for a number of years. I finally found a great solution in the form of the supplements detailed on this thread:

Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!

Many other people who tried the same supplements also reported good results. So you might want to have a read of that thread.

Phenibut you have to be cautious with, because even though it is only a supplement, it can have tolerance and withdrawal symptoms worse than benzodiazepines.


I have also tried SSRI, SNRI and MAOI drugs for my own depression, and they either do not help, or in the case of one SSRI drug I tried, made my depression much worse. So I have also been constantly looking for other depression treatments that work for me.

For depression, have you tried supplements like high dose inositol 15 grams, Spanish saffron 100 mg, 5-HTP 100 mg? These I find help. And recently I found that folinic acid 200 mcg daily helps reduce depression.

 

[Fred Smith]

no overmethylation dont need 5-htp we already produced too much of serotonin. and yes i did try it and i felt sick.

havent tried inositol or saffron no idea what that is.
i ordered some activated charcoal i read it can reduce your serotonin levels so im gonna give that a test.

how does the saffron help mental disorders?

 

[Hip]

how does the saffron help mental disorders?

Saffron has been shown in several studies to have an antidepressant effect as potent as antidepressant drugs. See this review study. Saffron works on the dopamine system.

Inositol is one of the B-vitamins, and studies have shown high dose inositol helps depression, anxiety and OCD. So this might help all your symptoms (except fatigue). See here for more info on these studies.