High Oxalates & B12 Deficiency

[ahmo]

@Kathevans I started with gestalt's posts, and some other references, and compiled anti-fungal info into a blog post here.

 

[Kathevans]

Thank you @ahmo That's a very comprehensive blog post! I have to say I felt a little daunted reading over it. I'm still on 1/2 FMN/day and am beginning to witness the lessening of some of my oxalate symptoms. I know I can't begin to focus on something this comprehensive quite yet. It's good to know it's here, though. Now I'm going to go take a nap!

 

[ahmo]

@Kathevans In your own time, you'll see that I've included several links and collected a list of the most recommended herbal antifungals.

 

[Oci]

Hi Gondwanaland, Back in June you quoted someone saying that
"Most of the candida species require biotin for growth, although candida krusei does not require any vitamins to grow. Knowing this, websites suggesting biotin as a way to control candida are giving you bad information. 1, 2" This was info from the yeastinfectionadvisor.

I've been supplementing with high dose biotin and the vaginal itch is worse. I also have been taking GSE, silver and Thorne SF722. How can it be that I have this itch?!!!

So, I am wondering if it is true that high biotin blocks growth or does it feed candida?
>>>
Here is one other opinion...
Dr. Jeffrey S. McCombs, DC said:
March 6, 2012 at 1:12 pm
All of its mechanisms are still unknown at this point. It is believed to interfere with fatty acid synthesis of the fungal wall and also to affect intracellular pH of the fungal cell.

While there was an early study that showed a possible antifungal effect of biotin against candida, other studies showed that candida can use biotin for fueling metabolic processes in the body. Candida has an amazing ability to adapt to the environment it finds itself in.
>>>
I then found this article that I think does say that biotin promotes growth of candida but may not at very high doses.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC278756/?page=1

So, I guess I will stop the Biotin for now. Just take what is in Yasko's All-in-One Multi.

Any thoughts on this? Thanks, Oci

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Oci

Personally I can't tell oxalate dump and candida overgrowth apart. All supplements recommended for oxalate issues are mentioned in the study you linked as candida food (B1, B6, B7).

At the Yahoo Group for oxalates, they say that itchyness and redness are oxalate dump and you should bear with it.

I find it all very confusing.

When I took MB12 for the 1st time all my symptoms disappeared overnight (even a toenail fungus which didn't come back), so I find very unlikely that one would dump oxalates for months with no end. I believe that the vitamins trigger something undesired.

 

[Oci]

@Oci

Personally I can't tell oxalate dump and candida overgrowth apart. All supplements recommended for oxalate issues are mentioned in the study you linked as candida food (B1, B6, B7).

At the Yahoo Group for oxalates, they say that itchyness and redness are oxalate dump and you should bear with it.

I find it all very confusing.

When I took MB12 for the 1st time all my symptoms disappeared overnight (even a toenail fungus which didn't come back), so I find very unlikely that one would dump oxalates for months with no end. I believe that the vitamins trigger something undesired.

Very interesting and helpful. Even though some candida (2+) showed up on the stool test, I am not convinced that candida is still a problem. I am to see my Integrative Doc tomorrow but my gut feeling is that I should stop the anti-candidals and focus on repairing the gut. I just took some l-glutamine powder which has helped in the past. I'm also taking VSL#3 with a bit of potato starch as well as S. Boulardi.

I will assume it is oxalates I am dealing with now and proceed with taking some things to help deal with them. I started extra B6 (P5P) today.

Are you suggesting that I stick with Biotin and increase or eliminate for now?

I leave next Wed for 2 weeks away out west with my daughters. Hope I will feel better.

Thanks so much for your help. Its great to have another's perspective. I tend to go around in circles in my thinking. Oci

PS: Just wondering...does your husband take methyl Bs? His Snps are similar to mine.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I should stop the anti-candidals and focus on repairing the gut

Definetly, the oxalate-degraading LAB are doing wonders for me.

I just took some l-glutamine powder which has helped in the past.

I found out the hard way that glutamine needs a lot of co-factors for its cell-proliferative activity - B1 B2 B6 iron copper

Are you suggesting that I stick with Biotin and increase or eliminate for now?

I would lower it to a dosage that doesn't cause discomfort, or take a break if the discomfort doesn't go away.

I leave next Wed for 2 weeks away out west with my daughters. Hope I will feel better.

Enjoy

Thanks so much for your help. Its great to have another's perspective. I tend to go around in circles in my thinking.

Likewise

does your husband take methyl Bs? His Snps are similar to mine.

He gets overmethylated very easily and here we don't have access to HyB12 in capsules. So when he needs MB12 at breakfast, he sleeps the whole morning. At least after taking magnesium for some time he didn't have rage bouts anymore

 

[Oci]

Definetly, the oxalate-degraading LAB are doing wonders for me.

I found out the hard way that glutamine needs a lot of co-factors for its cell-proliferative activity - B1 B2 B6 iron copper

I would lower it to a dosage that doesn't cause discomfort, or take a break if the discomfort doesn't go away.

Enjoy

Likewise

He gets overmethylated very easily and here we don't have access to HyB12 in capsules. So when he needs MB12 at breakfast, he sleeps the whole morning. At least after taking magnesium for some time he didn't have rage bouts anymore

HI again, I'm wondering what oxalate-degrading LAB you are taking? Does it require refrigeration? I am taking the VSL#3 but wonder if there is something else to take while traveling.
What happened with your glutamine experiment? What went wrong?
Yes, I think I will lower or eliminate the biotin for the moment.
I too get over-methylated very easily. Too bad you can't get HyB12. My eldest daughter who must have the COMT++ (judging by her temperament - I know she got one + from me) was very sensitive to methyls too but her practitioner had her start very low and very slow and she is now tolerating them. Oci

 

[Gondwanaland]

HI again, I'm wondering what oxalate-degrading LAB you are taking?

I take locally compounded (I'm in South America), but in addition to VSL#3 another recommended probx is the NOW 4x6, and I noticed a new one has been released with the precise oxalate-degrading strains called LactoBif, but I read no recommendation yet.

What happened with your glutamine experiment? What went wrong?

My dr. prescribed me zinc at the same time as glutamine and that made me severely anemic b/c I had no available copper to build new RBCs.

her practitioner had her start very low and very slow and she is now tolerating them

That is good to know

 

[Oci]

I take locally compounded (I'm in South America), but in addition to VSL#3 another recommended probx is the NOW 4x6, and I noticed a new one has been released with the precise oxalate-degrading strains called LactoBif, but I read no recommendation yet.

My dr. prescribed me zinc at the same time as glutamine and that made me severely anemic b/c I had no available copper to build new RBCs.

That is good to know

Thanks Gondwanaland. Certainly Now 4x6 is a lot cheaper than VSL#3!!! Both need refrigeration. LactoBif sounds great BUT is not available in Canada. So I guess I will take freezer packs and stick with VSL#3 for now.

I am probably very low in copper too as I've supplemented with zinc for years and had no real source of copper. I have had cancer and most practitioners say to not take copper. Will ask my doc tomorrow. Thanks again. Oci

 

[Violeta]

Then this week as the oxalate dumping slowed, the sudden good day, followed by a very bad one, then the sleepless night and with the realization that the neck was worse, I put things together. Is it possible it’s something like what @Freddd calls an “Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate Deficiency or Insuffiency” or, a “Methyl Trap”? I’m not homozygous MTHFR, but I am heterozygous—and have plenty of COMT, CBS, MTRR, NOS and PEMT…etc. Enough hobbling and you’re likely to stumble.

On another forum there has been conversation about SLC19A1, the gene for an enzyme that carries folate, and according to Sterling, when you have a mutation for some reason you need extra thiamine, biotin, and Vit K, and you would be likely to have difficulty with starches. Kathy, do you know if you have this?

I'm not sure yet if this would predispose someone to being deficient in folate while at the same time being deficient in folate, being deficient in thiamine, but at the same time being sensitive to supplementing it??? Maybe the same for biotin???

 

[Kathevans]

@Violeta Well! It's nice to know there are people who travel these threads after we've left them and continue to read them thoughtfully.

I hopped onto my Promethease link and input the SLC19A1 gene and came up with G;G with this information "
Solute carrier family 19 (folate transporter), member 1). Cys (A) allele associated with reduced plasma folate women with GA and AA genotypes had higher red blood cell folate concentrations, not significantly associated with serum folate or homocysteine levels methotrexate (antifolate drug) uptake lowest in individuals with GG genotype than those with GA or AA genotypes."

So, thank you. I have only been borderline low in Folate on the OAT test and haven't been retested lately. However, on a very recent Spectracell test I was well above 'normal' in thiamin, a tad lower in riboflavin, but borderline in biotion and borderline to low in K2.

I do take 1/4 Seeking Health B-Minus each day which doesn't include methyls, add 400mcg or so Folate,2,000mcg B12, add 500-1,000 mcg Biotin (which I had thought was low because of the avidin in the 2 eggs/day I've been eating for years, but maybe not!) and within the last month or so added in 90mcg of K2 as Jarrow's MK-7, which I had done some research on.

I certainly have some difficulty with starches. I thought I'd been gluten-free for about 7 years, but a test from last year--which nobody much paid attention to, we were busy with other things like my oxalates--showed me to have high IgA, the gliadin anti-body, reactive to gluten and, as @ahmo pointed out to me in a link many other foods that cross-react with gluten issues. So, I've gone on a completely grain-free diet (which includes rice,corn,eggs, chocolate, dairy, potatoes and a few other things) for just over a week now and we shall see. I'm going to start a thread on this issue as I think it's important. My brother-in-law just sent me a link to a podcast that explains some of these issues more deeply.

Meanwhile, I do appreciate this added confirmation of some of my issues.

As to oxalates--I think the issue is muddier than we might think. Supplementing with regular old B6 is fine--as long as you have enough B2 to convert it to its active form p5p. So my months of supplementing only B6 may well have further depleted my already low stores of B2. Which is also very essential in terms of folate metabolism, of course, in its active form FMN.

I'm working on all this now, trying to figure out just what my body is responding to and what not--and as you and many of us know, it isn't easy...!

 

[Gondwanaland]

So my months of supplementing only B6 may well have further depleted my already low stores of B2.

I wonder if taking B2 can quickly deplete B6...

 

[Kathevans]

I wonder if taking B2 can quickly deplete B6...

At the cofactor level, B2 can 'give us' active B6. But that's a good question. Not being the chemist type, I have no idea. But from much of what I've read on the 'B2 I love you' thread, many who go on the therapy, high doses, do it briefly to replenish, then stop.

On the other hand: those who have MAO++, as do I, may need a life time of additional supplementation just to help speed up the MAO gene and enable my body to metabolize normally. And that's just one area where I know it's essential.

Actually, it is probably also giving me more of the folate I'm eating in my salads and veggies. And possibly, with the SLC19A1 snp challenge, maybe that's another reason I may need more than some people.

Just guessin'.

 

[Paralee]

I have many Slc19A1 hetero's, not sure about the homo, MAO A hetero, and 3 homo COMP snps. I didn't know what that meant. Low folate?

I do know that P5P and B6 can increase levels, at least in some people. Mine was over a hundred and all I took was maybe 5 B6 and some P5P with the 12 and folic acid. I believe I was over the limit last year or so, and I've recently seen quite a bit on people that were treated for hyperparathyroidism usually had high B6 by about 6 mos. after op. (What a pattern of 6's I've created!)

Anyway, some of us can be genetically disposed to B6?

And some of us will probably get it after reduction of calcium and pth levels in blood?

Thank you in advance.