High histamine = undermethylation, but B12 raises histamine...?

[Timaca]

@Gondwanaland ~ that is the coolest lowoxalate website! Thanks for sharing. I don't have a problem with oxalates as I eat a number of high and very high oxalate foods without a problem.

I did like your attachment of recommended probiotics. Thanks for that! Do you have to limit your oxalates? If so, what symptoms did you have and what improved?

All the best,

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Timaca I have to limit my daily oxalate intake although I do eat high oxalate foods every now and then. I just have to watch to not eat them all in the same day.
My symptoms from oxalates are FM, joint pain, lymph congestion, GERD, brain fog, insomnia, candida-like flares, rashes, tinnitus, chronic constipation and Hashimoto's.

 

[Pete Rav]

Hi everybody.
Than you so much on your oppinons.

I know my symptoms in part do not match those of people with predominant “intestinal” Histamine intolerance, but I am suspecting central Histamine intolerance related to my HMNT.

I did almost everything to rule out allergic reactions, including RAST for IgE (a taest called Isaac that tests more than 300 allergens, including food), send blood to Germany for the IgG food test (called Kaiser Kompact, if I remember right) and ruled out Celiac Disease with blood tests and even intestinal biopsy.

My reaction still starts with that metallic taste upon eating but the vasodilation around my eyes are developing faster. Sometimes I get an itchy sensation on my throat while breathing (as if I was going to develop a type I hypersensitivity reaction). I haven’t had any rashes for a long time now, just the hedaches every single day.

The only lab finding was a very slight elevation on my IgA on blood test.

The only thing I forgot to mention is that it all started 6-7 years ago after taking 1 year of Bupropion (Norepinephrine + Dopamine reuptake inhibitor). I have to mention I never had any symptoms before taking that medication.

The symptoms stated at first while drinking coffee. As if my body was no able to get further stimulation from caffeine while on Bupropion.
Little by little, more food groups were involved, first sodas, then chocolate, then bread, then fruit by fruit (the last fruit to give me a reaction was the watermelon). Grape juice, wine and honey are killers.

Anti-histamins don’t seem to help, but pseudoephedrine seems to help me for a while.

I was taking some probiotic and last week I ran out. I seems that the symptoms got milder (there were some histamine producing probiotics in the pills).

I also tough that Phenol compounds could be the problem, but I haven’t tried anything like “No Phenol” yet or specific probiotics that metabolize Phenol compounds (Lactobacillus johnsonii).

 

[aaron_c]

Hmm... I see what you are saying @Pete Rav. Perhaps it is more than one kind of sensitivity? But honey should be fine for both histamine-sensitive and oxalate-sensitive people... Maybe that is where your phenol thing comes in?

Here is an interesting web site about people both sensitive to phenols and oxalates. From the web site [with bracketed text added by me]:

The sulfation pathways needs usable sulfur, which is in the form of sulfate to process the compounds that use that pathway [like oxalates and phenols]. The enzyme phenol sulfur- transferase (PST) is involved. Certain people are deficient in this enzyme, which can be another root cause of phenol and oxalate sensitivity. Among the many substances that should be broken down through this pathway are serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline (norephinephrine). Norepinephrine is a brain neurotransmitter very similar to adrenaline, which instigates the fight-or-flight response. If the body is not breaking these down then abnormally high levels of the compounds remain in the body. In this way, a build up of these hormones and neurotransmitters intended to be expelled, can cause many metabolic processes to be negatively affected by phenolic compounds and oxalates.

So, those deficient in PST have trouble breaking down any of these substances, as well as phenols and oxalates, creating the sensitivity to phenols and oxalates, and many other conditions. The problem can go both ways - phenols and oxalates can inhibit PST creating extra sensitivity and their diverse consequences and the deficiency itself can create sensitivity to phenols and oxalates.​

I read that there is someone theorizing that oxalates can trigger mast cell degranulation (releasing histamine) but I don't think they have any studies to back that up.

I am not necessarily suggesting that you are deficient or have a mutation in PST...Assuming my post has any relevance in the first place, I would more suspect that it would be due to a lack of some nutrient needed to inactivate and eliminate all of the substances you react to. B6 and zinc are mentioned by the web site I linked to...B6 also seems to be involved in histamine inactivation by DAO. It seems too simple, but have you tried taking B6, zinc, and everything else listed for histamine on the link I provided earlier? Failing that, have you tried to assess your nutrient profile ie looking for nutrients you are deficient in?

Sorry, as I don't understand a whole lot about oxalates, or really much of this but histamine, this whole post is something of a shot from the hip. I hope you find a solution soon, and when you do, I hope you will share it with us.

Best of Luck.

 

[Critterina]

Hi there,
I'm looking for some wisdom regarding Chronic Histamine Intol, affecting especially the central nervous system and causing food triggered migraines.
I've been suffering from such for the last 7 years and no regular doctor could shed a light on the way of the solution to my problem.

My symptoms are as follows:
Upon ingestion of most food groups, like any type of fruit, gluten and no gluten foods (bread, etc), chocolate, tea, soft drinks, sweeteners, milk, yogurts, Honey, caffeine, Kinua, grape juice and wine, etc....a metallic taste develops on the tip of my tong. Following, I develop black eyes (vasodilation effect) , asymptomatic hypotension (80 x 50 mmHg), and 6 to 8 hours later, a bad classic migraine.
Symptoms worsen along the day and build up the more food I eat. It seems to be dose dependant.
If I stay away from a particular food, like for instance a Coke, the reaction is milder, and as long as I keep exposing myself to the same drink, I tend to develop a stronger and faster reaction.

Eventually, if I insist in the same food, I develop a skin eczematous itchy rash that becomes elevated and warm.
Food that don't cause any reactions are meet, fish, chicken, rice, beans, salad, tomatoes, regular cheese.
I've been to a ton of tests and none have helped. Gluten intolerance was ruled out and even a biopsy was done to confirm that.

I've tried many migraine prophilactic medications but they did not help. The only medication that helped a little was Flunarizine, a Calcium channel blocker. After using it for a year in a very low dose, eventually It made me very tired and upon stopping it, the symptoms became worse again.

My symptoms are relieved by Triptans and I've been taking one of those every night and the following day, the same story starts again.

I've also developed a chronic constipation as it doesn't seem to be an easy way to help my bowels function properly. Recently I've started taking some Chia in the hopes it helps.
Chronic Histamine Intolerance affecting primarily the SNC seems to be a fairly reasonable diagnosis.

Is there I way to fix this.
I was thinking, histamine metabolizing probiotics, diaminooxidase, SAM-e to help my HMNT.
Can somebody let me know their thoughts?

Pete,

Very practically, I would suggest you consider a rigorous elimination diet, so that you know exactly what foods cause your symptoms, if possible with medical supervision. The one that I used did not allow you to add back in a food that you tested negative to, for the very reason of your Coke example. Doing this may take 6 months, but it allows you to live a more tolerable life, even if your food choices are WAY limited.

Second, with medical approval, consider a 72-hour fast. It really helps a lot of people who are not helped by anything else to minimize the effects of food intolerances, whether histamines or other. In my experience, the DAOsin only had a noticeable effect after I had improved a whole lot from a fast - it was not NEARLY enough to let me live normally before the fast. Also, avoid D-Hist or any supplement with NAC (N-acetylcysteine) if you are really histamine intolerant.

Third, consider gut health improvement. While I had loose stools and you have the opposite, a 4R gut rebuilding program may have been instrumental to the success of my fast. I don't know, but I think it was. (I did two fasts, one following the 4R, and the effects lasted 3 months; one without repeating the 4R, and the effects lasted about a month, But I also had to take antibiotics during that month, which could have caused some gut leakiness, so who knows?) And since the same critters (microorganisms) that make yogurt bad for us (by producing histamines) are in some probiotics, be careful with your probiotics. I imagine that if you set up colonies in your gut that make histamine, you get yourself into a world of hurt. I used the soil-based organisms from Swanson to good effect. I also like the one from Costco that is 4B something.

These three things may help you whether it's histamine issues, oxalate issues, a combination, or other food sensitivities/intolerances. Since tomatoes and spinach are high in natural histamines (not introduced by handling/process, like canned tuna which can be anywhere from zero to hell in terms of histamine) and you don't react to tomatoes, it could be other stuff going on. Who knows? But your symptoms, being dose-dependent and including the nervous and skin reactions, do seem food-related. And I've heard tell of some people reacting to some histamines and not others. So much is a mystery. But good luck and let us know how it goes.

My histamine intolerance journal is here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/critterinas-histamine-intolerance-journal.34685/ I need to update it, but I hope you find it helpful anyway.

Crit.

Edit: one more thought: dietary histamine trouble is more related to DAO than HNMT, since DAO is the gut enzyme. You might save yourself the SAMe trouble.

 

[aaron_c]

Another factor that can cause excess histamines is a vitamin A deficiency. This study reports that vitamin A deficient rats had about 50% more mast cells than controls, and that the observed inflammatory response following injection of olive oil to the skin was also higher in spite of lower IgE levels.

I am not saying this is the whole story, and I think that trying a lot of the things mentioned earlier (methyl donors, b6, magnesium, copper if one is deficient, even vitamin c and possibly niacin) is probably a less complex and more immediate way of addressing histamine sensitivity. As I am finding in the Vitamin A Thread, vitamin A might sometimes need to be balanced with a number of other things in order to avoid adverse reactions.

 

[Critterina]

@Pete Rav ,

I'm missing something here. How are you drawing the connection between food reactions and HNMT SNPs? Just a hypothetical story of what happens, what triggers what, etc. might help me visualize it. If I were going to make a case for it being a gut/DAO issue, there are several things that you've said that I'd quote. But I just don't get the food/HNMT connection. Thanks!

Critterina

 

[linusbert]

oh boy, i feel like a grave robber now, resurrecting this old bone of a thread. but...

Interesting, i'd like to know as well because i'm dealing with the same problem.
High histamine and PGE2 (Excessive mast cell degranulation?)
Low B12
Same MTR / MTRR heterozygous mutations.

I didn't try Dibencozide or any other form of B12 yet except mb12 because i've just started to explore the world of methylation. high dose Mb12 gives me the same feeling as a histamine overload. Little bit of "pins and needles" and flushing but more of an anxious, panicky, psycho overstimulated effect. The only thing that works with such an episode is xanax or a high dose anti-histamin with mast-cell stabilizing properties to calm me down.

Have you tried niacin yet? It's often used when over-methylated but i guess you already knew that. Some say it's easy to switch between undermethylation and overmethylation.

i have the same problem. well not homozygote, just hetero and my methylation doesnt look to bad i guess.


if i take methylfolate 400ug and/or b12 300ug in a complex (also with adob12). i get worsening of allergies and histamin and mcas and asthma (idk which is what from the symptoms, probably all the same anyways) pretty pretty bad now. its increasing with every dose, so if i take it every other day it gets worse and worse... so i do not do it anymore.

someone suggested to take MORE methylfolate and b12, but i dont understand. how and why should i add more of the thing which does actually trigger this?

i am copper deficient. was also positive on HPU/KPU test. though isolated b6 doesnt work for me, i need the b complex of all or i go crazy. i do not take zink because of copper. in serum zink is lowish normal.

i just do not know how to get this in order.
one suggested to take small amounts. but how do i take small amounts of b12 in like 10-20 ug? (thats like 1/10th of a capsule... but that also would mean i only get about 40ug folate) and what is adequate amount of folate in response to those small b12 dosages.