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high glutamate

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Marco wrote a series of articles about ME/CFS being a neuroinflammatory disorder. One of them focused specifically on glutamate. This one has links to the other three articles (including the one on glutamate) at the end of the article:
http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/201...akes-on-symptoms-of-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

Rich thought one of the causes of high glutamate was low glutathione in the brain for which he recommended L-cystine (rather than L-cysteine or NAC). He also thought low manganese could be an issue. This is a discussion between him and Asklipia.
I've suggested that L-cystine (not L-cysteine) might raise glutathione in the brain, and help with this (but not if there is a high mercury body burden, because it can move mercury into the brain). Another possibility would be supplementing manganese, if it is low, because it supports glutamine synthetase, which converts glutamate to glutamine.
Best regards, Rich
Hi Rich, thank you for your input.
In that case, what happens to the manganese? Would a continuous supply of glutamates bring on a manganese depletion, or is that same manganese used over and over again?
Sorry that I am not able to ascertain this by myself.
Best regards,
Asklipia
Hi, Asklipia.
Yes and yes. The manganese is used over and over, but it is also excreted, so there is a continuing need for it, as is true of the other essential minerals. If a person's diet is too low in manganese, or if the digestive system does not absorb it in normal amounts, a person will become deficient in it.
Best regards, Rich

Here Rich explains his reasoning for low glutathione in the brain causing high glutamate
Quite a few PWMEs who have tried the methylation protocol have reported that they have experienced an increase in symptoms associated with excitotoxicity when they began (anxiety, insomnia, nervousness). In the past, I have suggested trying acetyl glutathione or liposomal glutathione to counter this. One or two people reported that they thought this helped them.

Now I would like to suggest something else that I think would help with this, which is less expensive: L-cystine. Note here that I do mean L-cystine, not L-cysteine. (Cystine is the oxidized form of cysteine, consisting of two cysteine molecules bound together by a disulfide bond.) Douglas Laboratories is one producer of L-cystine, and there are at least a couple of suppliers of it
on the internet advertising 60 capsules, 500 mg each, for $16.50. I would suggest starting with a dosage of 500 mg and increasing to as much as 1,500 mg, depending on the response. L-cystine should not be taken by people who have a tendency to develop cystine kidney stones, or people who suspect that they have a high body burden of mercury, because L-cystine may move mercury around. And as always, I recommend working with a physician while on this protocol.

Here is the rationale:

I believe that the increase in excitotoxicity results from a further drop in the glutathione levels in the astrocytes (helper cells) in the brain, when the protocol is begun. (We know
from the recent MRS measurements of Shungu et al. that glutathione is already somewhat depleted in the brain in ME/CFS.) The further drop in glutathione lowers the production of ATP by the mitochondria of these cells, and they then have less energy for pumping glutamate out of the synapses and recycling it. When glutamate builds up, it overexcites the NMDA receptors, and that produces excitotoxicity.

If this is true, then it would seem that we may be able to lower the excitotoxicity if we can support the glutathione levels in the astrocytes as this protocol is begun.

According to the Dringen model, the astrocytes make their glutathione using cystine as their source of cysteine. Cystine is obtained from the blood, and is able to pass through the blood-brain barrier.

How does cystine normally get into the blood? The liver produces glutathione from the constituent amino acids that it receives from the diet via the intestine and the portal vein blood flow. The liver exports some of its glutathione to the circulating blood, and enzymes break down the glutathione into its constituent amino acids. The cysteine is mostly oxidized to cystine, and some of this is taken up from the blood by the brain.

When the methylation protocol is begun, the activity of the methionine synthase enzyme in the liver is increased by supplementing B12 and folate forms. This causes more of the homocysteine to be converted to methionine, so less is available to support synthesis of glutathione. One result of this is that the cystine level in the blood goes down, so that less of it is available to the brain.

It would therefore seem that if L-cystine were supplemented, it would augment the cystine in the blood and increase the supply available to the brain, and hence to the astrocytes. Hopefully, this would raise the glutathione levels in these cells, and increase their ability to remove glutamate from the synapses, lowering the excitotoxicity. Ingested cystine is not metabolized significantly by the liver, because it does not import cystine readily.

If anybody decides to try this, I would be interested to hear the results, whatever they turn out to be. Thanks.

Best regards,

Rich

This is the study Rich was referring to about low glutathione in the brain
Increased ventricular lactate in chronic fatigue syndrome. III. Relationships to cortical glutathione and clinical symptoms implicate oxidative stress in disorder pathophysiology.
Shungu DC, Weiduschat N, Murrough JW, Mao X, Pillemer S, Dyke JP, Medow MS, Natelson BH, Stewart JM, Mathew SJ.
Source

Department of Radiology, Weill Medical College of Cornell University, New York, NY 10021, USA. dcs7001@med.cornell.edu
Abstract

Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a complex illness, which is often misdiagnosed as a psychiatric illness. In two previous reports, using (1)H MRSI, we found significantly higher levels of ventricular cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) lactate in patients with CFS relative to those with generalized anxiety disorder and healthy volunteers (HV), but not relative to those with major depressive disorder (MDD). In this third independent cross-sectional neuroimaging study, we investigated a pathophysiological model which postulated that elevations of CSF lactate in patients with CFS might be caused by increased oxidative stress, cerebral hypoperfusion and/or secondary mitochondrial dysfunction. Fifteen patients with CFS, 15 with MDD and 13 HVs were studied using the following modalities: (i) (1)H MRSI to measure CSF lactate; (ii) single-voxel (1)H MRS to measure levels of cortical glutathione (GSH) as a marker of antioxidant capacity; (iii) arterial spin labeling (ASL) MRI to measure regional cerebral blood flow (rCBF); and (iv) (31)P MRSI to measure brain high-energy phosphates as objective indices of mitochondrial dysfunction. We found elevated ventricular lactate and decreased GSH in patients with CFS and MDD relative to HVs. GSH did not differ significantly between the two patient groups. In addition, we found lower rCBF in the left anterior cingulate cortex and the right lingual gyrus in patients with CFS relative to HVs, but rCBF did not differ between those with CFS and MDD. We found no differences between the three groups in terms of any high-energy phosphate metabolites. In exploratory correlation analyses, we found that levels of ventricular lactate and cortical GSH were inversely correlated, and significantly associated with several key indices of physical health and disability. Collectively, the results of this third independent study support a pathophysiological model of CFS in which increased oxidative stress may play a key role in CFS etiopathophysiology.
 
Messages
9
Interesting what you said about BANANAS. Going thru my severe insomnia right, I am craving bananas and need to eat at least one every day.

When I crave bananas, I take it as a sign I need potassium, and when I take some potassium the banana cravings go away. I wouldn't mind, but they are so sweet.
 
Messages
9
Marco wrote a series of articles about ME/CFS being a neuroinflammatory disorder. One of them focused specifically on glutamate. This one has links to the other three articles (including the one on glutamate) at the end of the article:
http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/201...akes-on-symptoms-of-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

It's interesting, I wish I could understand more of it, but right now I'm experiencing one of my headaches. But it mentions several things that worked together to help me figure out one piece of my puzzle, and give me so much more of my freedom and life back. The amygdala, PTSD and chemical sensitivities. I used a technique that they used to help vets coming home from the middle east who had PTSD (they used to call this shell-shock). It goes by different names: amygdala retraining, brain retraining, EFT, tapping, EMDR(?). Lots more names. But it works for many things. I just can't get it to work for my GABA/glutamate problem. I guess I'm not accessing whatever "early-life event" that I need to clear out. Thanks for that link.
 

heyitisjustin

Senior Member
Messages
162
The Yasko camp suggests these for glutamate balance:

I'd also really avoid heavy glutamates in the diet which are red meats & pretty much all processed foods
angela

Red meat actually doesn't appear to be that bad (at least beef isn't see https://msgfacts.com/glutamate-in-food/), brocolli and potatoes (too pick not obvious examples) are much worse. Long cooked meat is bad, perhaps that's what you were thinking of.