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High Dose Testosterone

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Louie, Apr 29, 2018.

  1. Louie

    Louie

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    Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) enhances your body's ability to improve protein synthesis and oxidative phosphorylation (OP) and red blood cell formation to name a few. Since ME victims have difficulty metabolizing carbohydrates and and fats it would seem one plausible treatment is supplementing with high doses of testosterone to maximize protein synthesis and OP. Also, as woman are over represented in this disease, could it be low levels of this hormone relative to men contribute to ME? Could it be women on TRT at dosages appropriate for women (1/10th of men) could see significant improvement in protein synthesis and OP.

    I have found regular TRT had a slight positive effect but when I experimented with 300 mg/week of testosterone enthanate which put my blood testosterone levels three times higher than the range for males I had reduced fatigue, but more importantly my ability to recover from post-exertional malaise was cut by one-third my normal time. I know there are side effects (not prostate cancer) but when you are essentially house bound you are willing to take some risk. This is the ONLY treatment that has moved the needle for me.

    Does anyone have experience supplementing with high testosterone have anything to say? By high doses I mean a dose that puts your testosterone level well above the range for an average male your age, not just replacement therapy putting you in the range. When replying please note dosages, length of treatment and gender. Thanks!
     
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  2. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I am female, without ovaries, and on testosterone therapy, with levels kept at that of a 25 year old female. It helps my brain function, energy, bone health, and sense of well being.
     
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  3. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Sounds like you want more of the anabolic effects of testosterone than the androgenic effects. Anabolic steroids were made for this reason. A commonly used anabolic with many studies in hiv males thats show many positive effects is deca durabolin. Anavar/oxandrolone is another effects and safe anabolic .

    There is a. Androgenic/anabolic ratio for male steroids . Testosterone has a ratio of 100/100.
    Deca Durabolin 37/125 so is more anabolic than testosterone and less androgenic than testosterone.
    Anavar is 24/320-660. These ratios arent black and white, as it appears anavar is much more anabolic than deca durabolin but in reality deca durabolin is reguarded as a much stronger anabolic.

    You mention prostate, prostate enlargement can occur from high doses of testosterone and is reguarded as an androgenic side effect. So these anabolic drugs carry much lower androgenic side effects such as prostate enlargement and can also be much safer for women who want to avoid androgenic/masculine effects of testosterone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
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  4. keenly

    keenly Senior Member

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    Morning sunlight builds testosterone.
     
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  5. tiredowl

    tiredowl

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    What about estradiol for females?
     
  6. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    The first time i tried it, it made me very sleepy. I have a feeling it has to do with the connection to the hpa-axis.

    I have a feeling HCG would work better for me since it increases pregnenelone and also the enzymes that break it down.


    By the way it's probably important to run HCG along side of test.

    Also, depending on the ester, 150 mg every 4 days is better than 300 mg once a week. Steadier levels are better.
     
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  7. Dan_USAAZ

    Dan_USAAZ Senior Member

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    I have not had my testosterone that high (2x/3x). My highest was about 40% over the top end of the rage for a short period. Doc wanted me to stay in range, so had to make some adjustments.

    I have a couple of additional recommendations that are important if you are going to be in the top half of the range and exponentially more important if you are going to be shooting for 2x/3x the top of the range. You may already be aware of these points (you reference side effects). Others may find this interesting as well.

    Aromatase - This is an enzyme that is responsible for converting androgens into estrogens. High levels of testosterone will be converted into estrogen, resulting in the formation of breast tissue, similar to gynecomastia. In layman’s terms, this is the formation of female breast tissue in a male. A male patient on TRT should talk to their doctor about managing this. Blood tests should include the estradiol sensitive test. The results will tell you if too much testosterone is getting converted to estrogen. If this is the case, your doctor can prescribe an aromatase inhibitor, like anastrozole. After starting an aromatase inhibitor, it is important to continue testing estradiol sensitive when you test your other hormones. You do not want to push your estrogens too low. If this happens, reduce the amount of medication and test again after a period of time.

    Luteinizing Hormone (LH) – LH is a hormone that is produced by the pituitary gland. In males, increased LH sends a message to the testes to produce more testosterone. When testosterone levels are high, the negative feedback loop sends a message through the hypothalamus to the pituitary gland via GnRH to stop releasing LH and then testosterone will go down. This is how the body maintains testosterone levels. When TRT patients have testosterone levels permanently in the high range, LH is largely shutdown. This creates a couple of issues.

    1) Testicular Atrophy – This is partly a cosmetic/ego issue, but could also result in permanent atrophy and sterilization.

    2) LH does not have just the one function of sending the message to create more testosterone. It also plays a role in other metabolic pathways, primarily the hormone cascade from CHOL to pregnenolone. This is the precursor to sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids. LH stimulates the P450scc enzyme, which is what starts the process by converting CHOL to pregnenolone. Permanently lower levels of LH will negatively impact this process. I suspect this is why many men that go on TRT initially feel good, but in a few weeks start to feel poorly.

    As per @drob31 ‘s suggestion, low dose, frequent HCG is important for testosterone replacement therapy. HCG largely sovles both problems listed above. HCG is an LH mimetic and will carry out the functions of LH.

    Additionally, the combination of an aromatase inhibitor and HCG will keep your testosterone levels a little higher, by preventing conversion of testosterone to estrogen and getting your testes to produce at least some minimal amount of testosterone.

    Most of the information above was picked up from internet sleuthing over several years. I do not have a medical/science background, so please feel free to correct or add to what I have described above.

    Lastly, I would like to try the high level TRT you suggest, but would likely never find a doctor to support it.
    I will be curious to hear if others have done this.
     
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  8. Kenshin

    Kenshin Senior Member

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    Is there any benefit to taking the aromatase inhibitor and HCG without steroids?
    Only thing that worries me about roids is them shutting down the bodies natural production,
    I've heard of guys who are permanenrtly on a cycle (lol) because they feel so shit when they come off.
    There's some Test creams out there for transdermal use that seem easier for a begginer.
     
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  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Aromatase inhibitors which reduce estrogen being converted from testosterone, is that if used on there own can crash a mans testosterone too low, sorry correction estrogen too low . This will make a guy feel like shit, no sex drive, lots of aches and pains etc etc. Its a fine line and easy to over shoot it with an AI even when on trt.

    The transdermal creams are generally poorly absorbed and wont get ones levels to an optimum range but it has worked for some. The gold standard is weekly injections of testosterone enanthate or cypionate at 100 to 150mg per week. Sustanon 250 is available in some countries and 250mg per fortnight is a good trt dose.

    It takes some ftequent testing to fine tune your testosterone levels and estrogen levels. Regular checks of hematocrit are inportant as high levels can increase your risk of strokes and heart attacks but generally isnt an issue with TRT doses. High doses it becomes a concern.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
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  10. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    T3 also increases pregnenolone
     
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  11. Louie

    Louie

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    Yes I am aware and on aromatase inhibitors and HCG; good discussion for people unaware, but nothing you won't find on a myriad of bodybuilding sites. I was interested in hearing if anyone else, besides me, has found an improvement in ME/CFS on high dose testosterone.
     
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  12. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    True.
    There is a talk my nancy klimas somewhere on utube and she is talking in New Zealand. She mentions that there seems to be a group of cfsme guys who have low T that improve alot on trt. She also said that sometimes it can take 12 months or so to feel better on trt. Maybe it takes 12 months for testosterone to repair things??? She never mentions the dose used.

    Blast and cruise method might be good for cfs guys. Higher doses from 300 to 500mg per week for several weeks than back to 150mg etc or add another compound like nandrolone for awhile. Health benefits of nandrolone can occur with small doses like 100mg per week, help with joint pains etc. I guess its a blast and cruise lite??
     
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  13. TiredBill

    TiredBill Senior Member

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    About 2 years ago (after 33 years with CFS) I was found to have testosterone levels just barely above what the physicians in my medical group considered "normal," which was 306 ng/dL. Their cut off for treatment was 300 ng/dL.

    In searching the medical literature and journal articles I found significant support for TRT with men in the gray area (above 300 ng/dL) who were feeling symptomatic with issues like fatigue, brain-fog, and other symptoms that mimic ME/CFS.

    After getting tossed out of one Endocrinologists office (the Chief of my large medical group) without him taking a history or having a discussion of the literature, I found another Endocrinologist in the group who was willing to give a second opinion.

    He too was unwilling to treat me, initially. Then I asked for an outside referral to see a Dr Swerdloff at UCLA/Harbor who is a very kind doctor who consulted with me by phone and is a recognized leader in the field.

    Hearing Swerdloff's name got a good reaction, as he'd been Endocronologist #2's mentor. This doctor muttered something about "getting into trouble with his superiors...but I'm retiring soon anyway," and he had a sudden change of heart.

    He said, "I'm willing to do a trial run and see how it goes, I don't expect it will help you."

    At that point, I was feeling very low. The worst time in my disease progression since the first year I was sick with CFS.

    The TRT was amazing. I felt it very quickly (sooner than all reports made me expect). The only downside was that initially they wanted to control the injections (so I had to come into the clinic) and get one big shot (2 ml) every two weeks. This lead to peaks (which were unpleasant for me) and valleys (which were worse). But still, positive.

    The Endo was surprised by the trial but he congratulated me for my persistence and said he was wrong. Not something one hears from doctors very often.

    He then released me to self-inject, which actually led to a slightly lower overall dose (0.75 ml weekly). Doing weekly self-injections got rid of any peaks and valley feelings completely.

    The TRT has not cured CFS. But it was a boon at a time when my quality of life was crashing. it continues to be a big benefit for me.

    Sorry for the long post. I hope my experience is of help to someone.

    Bill
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
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  14. Louie

    Louie

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    Hi TiredBill thanks for your post; very interesting. I also was at the very bottom of the range when I started TRT. Am I correct in assuming 0.75 ml equals 150 ml of testosterone per week?

    Can you describe more how much of a benefit testosterone has been, for example did it take you from housebound to able to do some activities or part-time work?

    Note to others at 150 ml (and me at 300 ml week) this is far below what an amateur bodybuilder would use as they often use 1000 mg week of testosterone, plus another anabolic steroid. Not saying we should go this high but just as a frame of reference.
     
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  15. TiredBill

    TiredBill Senior Member

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    No, one 0.75 ml injection per week. That gets me to the upper 700s in Total Testosterone measured in ng/dL. Near the top of normal range. Early on the dosing (then 1.0 ml per week) got me to about 1100 ng/dL TT on blood tests and I was surprised to find that I didn't like that high a level. In my case, more wasn't better.

    Since the early stages of my disease (back in 1984) I got back to decades of what would be termed "mild" levels of symptoms (which were pretty difficult to deal with, but I wasn't incapacitated and I got back to work). So better off than many.

    About 3 years ago, my health started slipping. I couldn't work. I also became increasingly unable to garden, work around the house, or contribute to my family life as much as I wished. My energy was crashing and some days were really a struggle. I wasn't quite housebound, but many days I was nearly so. The brain-fog and almost painful fatigue levels were increasingly difficult to deal with. I guess that would be called "moderate" CFS (and heading downward). I was extremely worried about my future.

    Post TRT, I started feeling better. The results were pretty quick. A big reduction in brain-fog and increased energy. Although I only returned to part-time freelance work, I was able to start gardening again and doing household projects and enjoying my life and my family. Big difference.

    I also followed up with my doctors and found I had sleep apnea and mildly low thyroid levels. So I jumped on treating those as well. Treating sleep apnea helped me get a much better quality of sleep. I ended up needing a very specialized device called an ASV machine due to having mixed obstructive and central apneas.

    The thyroid meds (levothyroxine) were only of mild benefit. Recently I tried adding T3 (cytomel generic) to see if we could get a little more out of thyroid treatment, but (unfortunately) the cytomel destroyed me. It almost put me back to where I started from 3 years ago (for 2 weeks). I'm just recovering from that experiment and getting back on track.

    Ups and downs.

    Bill
     
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  16. Louie

    Louie

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    Sorry I mean't to say does 0.75 ml equal 150 mg (not ml) of testosterone. I take 300 mg of testosterone enanthate.

    Very interesting how you improved on TRT that put you at the top of the normal range. I did not notice an improvement with TRT that only put me at the top of the range but now have improvement with a blood testosterone level of 2900 ng/dl.
     
  17. TiredBill

    TiredBill Senior Member

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    I'm taking Depo-Testosterone (Testosterone Cypionate) injections. I'm not sure how that compares.

    I was surprised to find that I didn't like the feeling of being out of "range" on the high side. Top of "normal" works for me.

    Do your doctors support 2900 ng/dl?

    Bill
     
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  18. Louie

    Louie

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    My doctor is willing to continue to try at this level since it is the only thing he has tried that has had an impact.
     
  19. .jm.

    .jm.

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    It is on my list to try in about two months. In about two months I'm going to follow-up with endocrinologist. He agreed to prescribe. My objective is to raise my testosterone from about 20ng/dl to the high-end women's range of about 60ng/dl. I also will ask to be on Avodart to help prevent body hair regrowth during this experiment. (avodart is an extremely effective alpha 5 reductase inhibitor.)

    My choice is testosterone depot. We'll start with some low dose and monitor targeting 60ng/dl. I'd also like to raise my estrogen level slightly. (I'm already on HRT. )
     
  20. nryanh94

    nryanh94

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    Testosterone may very well work for others but mine is at 1132 ng/dL, normal is 250-1100 and I still feel like complete and utter crap lol
     

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