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High-dose intravenous Vitamin C effective against Epstein-Barr-Virus?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Wonkmonk, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It might have; you'd have to do a bit of Googling to find that out.


    But I think the cytotoxicity of high-dose IV vitamin C might be a cause for concern: in the HEp-2 cell line (human epithelial cells) in the antiviral study, they found that the concentration of ascorbic acid that killed half the cells after 24 hours was 2,000 μM.

    When you do IV ascorbate, you are getting blood concentrations of 10,000 μM or higher (although those high concentrations will only last for a few hours).
     
  2. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    High dose intravenous vitamin C has been used for decades, and I have not heard about any ill effects from it. SO it is probably safe, but I found it concerning that it has these cytotoxic effects. I wonder how well IV C has been formally researched for safety.
     
  4. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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  5. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    Intravenous administration of vitamin C in the treatment of herpetic neuralgia: two case reports.

    "15 g of vitamin C was administered intravenously every second day over a period of two weeks. Sudden and total remission of the neuropathic pain (measured on the basis of the visual analogous-scale, VAS) could be observed."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20424557
     
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  6. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    A Study of Intravenous Administration of Vitamin C in the Treatment of Acute Herpetic Pain and Postherpetic Neuralgia

    "Intravenously administered ascorbic acid did not relieve acute [herpes zoster] pain; but is effective for reducing the incidence of post-herpetic neuralgia."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5125947/
     
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  7. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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  8. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    Aren't epithelial cells a reservoir or a target of EBV? So killing some of those would perhaps be good?

    In the cancer studies, as I understand them, the high-dose VC killed the cancer cells selectively and wasn't (very) cytotoxic for healthy cells. Could the same be the case for virus-infected cells? That could perhaps be an explanation why @Learner1 felt a positive effect.
     
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Epithelial cells make up your skin and the mucous membranes of your respiratory and gastrointestinal tract, etc; viruses which spread by respiratory secretions are usually able to infect epithelial cells in your respiratory or gastrointestinal tract, as that is how they establish the first infection in your body.


    In the in vitro antiviral study above, they tested the effects of high dose vitamin C in a line of epithelial cells that were not virally infected, and at the concentration given, 50% of the cells were killed by vitamin C. The concentration at which 50% of the cells die is called the CC50 concentration.

    It is normal for in vitro antiviral studies to measure the CC50. It is also normal for these studies to measure the concentration of the antiviral at which viral replication is inhibited by 50%, this is called the EC50 concentration.

    For a good antiviral, you want the CC50 concentration to be much higher than the EC50 concentration. In other words, you want to be able to use the antiviral to kill the virus, without killing the cells.

    In fact, that is how you measure the potency of an antiviral, by taking the ration of CC50 / EC50. That ratio is known as the selectivity index. For a potent and useful antiviral, you will find the selectivity index has a value around 10 to 50.

    Bu in the case, of vitamin C, it's CC50 concentration is actually lower that its EC50 concentration in these epithelial cells.

    I have been reading a lot of antiviral studies recently, so that's why I am familiar with this stuff.
     
  10. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    But why then is the toxicity of intravenous Vitamin C so low, even at very high doses.

    As I wrote before, it is available without prescription in Germany (I ordered one already).
     
  11. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I don't have time for a full explanation now, but it's due to the Fenton reaction and Vitamin C being converted to hydrogen peroxide and superoxide to kill cancer and infectious agents. Look up Mark Levine at NIH and Linus Pauling Institute. It has also been used to kill Ebola - interesting case study should be Googlable.
     
  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I think it is because ascorbate has a fast half-life of 2 hours, so the high vitamin C concentrations in your blood are only present for a few hours in your body, thus limiting toxicity. Also, people will only get one infusion every few days, to so again that limits toxicity.

    Normally with a drug or supplement, you tend to repeat the dose once every half life, which is 2 hours in this case; but vitamin C infusions are given only once every few days.

    So a few epithelial cells may die, but not enough to cause noticeable harm. Ascorbic acid does not cross the blood-brain barrier, so it will not kill your brain cells.


    But if you were to perform an infusion once every two hours on a long term basis, I am sure you would start to observe the toxic effects.
     
  13. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    A historic figure with probably still the most clinical experience is Frederick R. Klenner, M.D. (died 1984) with frequent and very high doses mainly against viral diseases: Clinical Guide to the Use of Vitamin C - The Clinical Experiences of Frederick R. Klenner, M.D., abbreviated, sumarized and annotated by Lendon H. Smith, M.D.
     
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  14. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    That possibly might be the dehydroascorbic acid (DHA), the reduced form of ascorbic acid, that is working in the brain. DHA is actively transported across the blood-brain barrier and into the brain.

    The DHA form of vitamin C is a far more potent antiviral than regular ascorbic acid form of vitamin C, and also is far less toxic to cells than regular vitamin C. That's what they found in the in vitro study I mentioned earlier.

    See: Dehydroascorbic acid as an anti-cancer agent



    I was in contact with some people that used a combination of intravenous vitamin C plus super-high dose selenite (a form of selenium) to successfully treat an otherwise fatal cancer. Selenite (not to be confused with selenATE) is the main anti-cancer agent. I was so amazed by this, that I did a lot of background reading on the anti-cancer effects of selenite, and created a thread about it here:

    Alternative Cancer Treatment: When Chemotherapy Fails, Sodium Selenite May Cure
     
  16. Learner1

    Learner1 Forum Support Assistant

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    I have seen many cancer patients use it in the 3 IV clinics I've been to. It is typically used in concert with artesunate, which also has cancer fighting properties.

    You may be interested in some of the research Mark Levine at NIH has done with vitamin C and cancer:

    https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/65940191_Mark_Levine

    Notably, he has shown that IV C must be used to get high enough concentrations in the blood to be effective. It can't be absorbed in sufficient quantity from the gut.
     
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  17. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    This might limit any effectiveness for CFS.

    But if DHA is more effective and less toxic (for cancer) why not directly use high-dose DHA?
     
  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Because AA and DHA interconvert, so you get both anyway.
     
  19. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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  20. Wonkmonk

    Wonkmonk Senior Member

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    There appears to have been a trial with Hepatitis C with very high doses, but can't find results. It may have been aborted:

    An Open-Label Pilot Study of the Safety, Tolerability and Anti-Viral Activity of High Dose Intravenous Ascorbic Acid in Patients Chronically Infected With Hepatitis C Virus Genotype 1, Who Have Failed Prior Therapy With Interferon-alpha and Ribavirin


    "Intravenous vitamin C, 25 to 100 grams, once or twice a week, for five months"

    https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01250743
     
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