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help wanted finding quotes, please!

Graham

Senior Moment
Messages
5,188
Location
Sussex, UK
I'm working on something at the moment, and can remember, way back, reading something here in the UK, possibly on an old NICE page, or possibly on an old advice sheet to GPs not to carry out too many tests on patients with ME because it enhances their false illness beliefs. Any ideas?
 

Mary

Moderator Resource
Messages
17,384
Location
Southern California
I'm working on something at the moment, and can remember, way back, reading something here in the UK, possibly on an old NICE page, or possibly on an old advice sheet to GPs not to carry out too many tests on patients with ME because it enhances their false illness beliefs. Any ideas?

This might be helpful (ouch! it's hard to read!) http://www.ghpjournal.com/article/S0163-8343(97)80315-5/abstract
. . . . and perpetuated the illness (cerebral dysfunction, sleep disorder, depression, inconsistent activity, and misunderstanding of the illness and fear of making it worse). Interventions are then aimed to overcoming these illness-perpetuating factors.

I just realized this doesn't say anything about not doing too many tests, although the injunctin not to do "too many tests" would be a natural corollary from the above.
 

wastwater

Senior Member
Messages
1,271
Location
uk
Yes its very true,I think they think don't encourage the hypochondriacs is the way they see it
 

*GG*

senior member
Messages
6,389
Location
Concord, NH
I'm working on something at the moment, and can remember, way back, reading something here in the UK, possibly on an old NICE page, or possibly on an old advice sheet to GPs not to carry out too many tests on patients with ME because it enhances their false illness beliefs. Any ideas?

Wow, seems like a broken system due for an overhaul!

GG
 

BruceInOz

Senior Member
Messages
172
Location
Tasmania
The document from Margaret Williams "A TRAVESTY OF SCIENCE AND A TRAGEDY FOR PATIENTS: QUOTABLE QUOTES CONTINUED 2006 – 2016" linked to and discussed in this thread may be useful.

If the quote is from SW et al., chances are it is in this document.
 

sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
Maybe it was just a bad dream I had, but wasn't there a video series telling doctors how to deal with these awful patients who insist on being ill without approval?
 

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
. . . such 'inappropriate' referrals to physicians can lead to extensive physical investigation that may perpetuate the symptom patterns of physical attributions.

. . . they may undergo extensive investigation and medical treatment, which may not only be inappropriate but also hazardous. There is evidence that iatrogenic factors such as inappropriate information, overinvestigation, and overtreatment are common in the management of patients with medically unexplained symptoms, and avoidance of these factors forms the mainstay of most advice on their management.

At the very least, doctors in all clinical specialties must be wary of causing physical harm by unwarranted investigations and treatments.

There are some other outrageous quotes here

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/simon-wessely-quotes.21025/
 

RogerBlack

Senior Member
Messages
902
I note that inappropriate investigation _can_ cause harm.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4322920/
Addressing overdiagnosis and overtreatment in cancer: a prescription for change

For example, post-mortem analysis of random dead Finnish people found that 36% of them had thyroid cancer - which was asymptomatic.
https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg53/chapter/1-guidance - could be a hell of a lot worse in its current form.

It recommends CBT and GET as one possible treatment for 'mild and moderate' cases, which is probably the biggest downside.

Other than this, it's mostly sensible - testing can be done to rule out other conditions, specialists with no experience of CFS should not treat CFS, no vigorous activity, ...

Would it be nice to rewrite it to remove CBT and GET - yes.
('nice' in the sense that it absolutely should be done)
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I'm working on something at the moment, and can remember, way back, reading something here in the UK, possibly on an old NICE page, or possibly on an old advice sheet to GPs not to carry out too many tests on patients with ME because it enhances their false illness beliefs. Any ideas?
Are you looking for an authoritative/official document endorsed by the NHS, etc to some extent, versus researchers spouting off in their publications?
 

Hajnalka

Senior Member
Messages
910
Location
Germany
Thank you so much for your work, Graham! :)

I know, it' not relevant here, but I'll add some gems from Germany. We don't have guidelines for ME/CFS, because this illness apparently doesn't exist (here), but CFS does get a chapter in the "guidelines for tiredness".

The Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) is a rare consultation result.

The, in the Canadian document - without any reasonable consequence - proposed tests, have combined a iatrogenic pathogenization potential bordering on body injury.

It is explicitly stated that not even blood pressure or ferritin should be checked!!!

The document wonders, why CFS is so often publicly discussed in the UK. Even the NICE guidelines are regarded as too much fuss about a mostly self-diagnosed, imaginary condition, but are mentioned as positive in comparison to the CCC (that convey the dangerous believe that CFS is somatic :jaw-drop:).

By the way:
Labeling the symptoms as "myalgic encephalomyelitis" is associated with a poorer prognosis than other diagnostic categories.

It's also explained that patients fear to improve because it would mean to face tasks and responsibilities, that are perceived as a burden. Doctors are told to explain to patients, that these unwanted responsibilities could also be seen as a chance!

In my region, the local guidelines even forbade to offer any tests for patients with the diagnosis CFS until december 2014. Doctors got into trouble, if they tried (the only CFS-specialist wasn't allowed to practice anymore and left). Additionally it was officially labeled as "inconsiderate towards colleagues" if an existing diagnosis of depression was changed into a CFS diagnosis. These local guidelines had to be removed in 2015 but seem to still exist in the minds (my GP refuses to treat even the most obvious symptoms or to refer me anywhere, apparently it's no reason to worry and fairly normal, if you're in your 30ies and bed-bound).

Can't wait for a blood test from Stanford to end this farce! Sorry, for the irrelevant detour to Germany, couldn't resist. ;)
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
www.beh-mht.nhs.uk/Downloads/GP%20and%20referrers/Primary%20Care%20Academy/A%20Psychiatric%20Summary%20Mind%20and%20Body.pdf is a fairly bad one from a local mental health NHS site.

4: Functional Somatic Syndromes
Here patients present with a collection of physical symptoms. “Syndromes” are groups of symptoms that often occur together in a recognisable pattern. Examples of relevant syndromes for our discussion include irritable bowel syndrome, chronic pelvic pain, fibromyalgia, atypical chest pain, chronic fatigue syndrome, hyperventilation syndrome, chronic back pain, joint hypermobility syndrome, tension headache and so-called multiple food sensitivity.
Emotions and other mental factors cause changes in our body. You may have noticed this yourself in relation to heart palpitations, bowel spasms or pain when you are more stressed? Where psychological factors are important but not identified there are risks for patients. A particular risk is that they may be referred to multiple hospital departments and have multiple physical investigations. Some intrusive and risky investigations may inadvertently cause more harm than good. This is called iatrogenic harm. In extreme cases, patients have had operations that they did not really need. Unfortunately this happens despite doctors’ best intentions and care.

They're pretty careful with their language on anything directly associated with the NHS, versus the private endeavors of some of the quacks hired by the NHS. There probably won't be anything at all official using "false illness beliefs" or similar.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
www.fndaction.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/FNS-Needs-Assess-final-31.pdf This isn't from an NHS site, but has the Public Health England name and seal at the top.

Non-organic disease was defined as:
- Tension Headache; Aetiologically controversial symptom ‘syndromes’ (e.g. Chronic fatigue syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Irritable Bowel Syndrome); Physiologically explained processes which are thought to be linked to emotional symptoms (e.g. Hyperventilation); Emotional disorders (e.g. Depression, Anxiety, Panic disorder)
There is a higher risk that patients experiencing functional symptoms will also incur costs in the form of iatrogenic harm. This is often due to the inconsistent way in which this issue is dealt with and this can result in unintended consequences. For instance, over investigation, inappropriate information and advice given to patients and inappropriate prescription of medication may contribute to the intractable nature of some MUS [36, 39, 40].
 
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sarah darwins

Senior Member
Messages
2,508
Location
Cornwall, UK
Ah, it wasn't a dream ... there were these training videos for GPs. I don't know if there are specific bits about testing because I can't bring myself to watch past the first minute of them, but there's an old thread on them here:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...sh-gps-on-how-to-deal-with-cfs-patients.3079/

There are links to 4 videos in the first post by Dolphin.

Be warned, these videos can cause nausea and other symptoms, including sore toes from kicking things.
 

lauluce

as long as you manage to stay alive, there's hope
Messages
591
Location
argentina
In my second year of illness(2003) my GP (at my behest) requested a number of tests; the Consultant Medical Biologist at the hospital replied:
"My general feeling is that microbiological investigations for ME is generally unhelpful as the detection of antibodies to a variety of bacterial and viral agents only show the exposure to such agents and not the cause of the ME. These tests do not help the overall management and probably do not influence the outcome. I have enclosed some information that you may find helpful".
This was the info:
View attachment 19799
yuppie flu! disgusting! :mad::mad::mad::mad:
 

Hugo

Senior Member
Messages
230
I'm working on something at the moment, and can remember, way back, reading something here in the UK, possibly on an old NICE page, or possibly on an old advice sheet to GPs not to carry out too many tests on patients with ME because it enhances their false illness beliefs. Any ideas?

Thats circular reasoning lets not try to find something because we already know its up in the head. To paraphrase someome else who like cirkular reasoning.. SAD.