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Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?

V

Vitaranger

Messages
3
My health was continually getting worse at age 55, after convential care don't work for me,, shortness of breath and PVC,s, .. Nitro. Became daily then 24 hr. nitro...tried a very large number of vitamins before I ran into k2 mk-7 at age 57. I took 400mcg a day and after 5 weeks I no longer needed my nitro. After 2 yrs. I went down to 300 mcg. Note this is a quinone. A transfer agent in the inner membrain of the mitochondria (CoQ10 & PQQ are also quinones but there have been no trials for comparrison. A 90 year old has lost most of mitochondria function whereas a 5 yr old has 100 % functioning. I now also take 30-45 mg mk-4 as in my opinion there is a larger difference in these then we currently understand and has helped in not needing my daily baby aspirin as much thus I feel it does more to move calcium then MK-7. A also feel a must have for me is 500 mg vit. C with bioflavoiniods(used to called vit. P)... While I do take a few others these IMO are the most important. Our foods from plants and animals are not the same as they were a hundred yrs. Ago. Therefore taking vits. Is more important.....Wanted to share with others on a forum it maybe helpful... I wrote more on the subject in a book called quackmed but ones belief system has has to change before they will try alternatives or until all options are exausted as they were for me.
 
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V

VitaminK2

Messages
22
I take vitamin k2 mk-7 with vitamin D. I haven't noticed anything dramatic in terms of energy. The research behind it is good though so its worthwhile to take for overall health. I feel it has helped my teeth healthier as well. I haven't had cavities in awhile. Its one of the main reasons I started taking it.
 
V

Vitaranger

Messages
3
Kiran Krishnan whom has quite bit of knowledge on K2 said after taking k2 mk-7 for several weeks a persons profusion of blood at rest increases approx.12% & 25% during exercise. This made me understand more of why I got better. This is healthy for the whole body. In regards to vitamin D to get calcium, I feel I have enough calcium in my arteries so I quit vit. D, I think mk-4 may do a better job of moving calcuim then mk-7 and this is what was used in the Rotterdam study. By the way vit D is used for rat poison. Hypercalcemia. Calciferols (vitamins D), cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) and ergocalciferol (vitamin D2) are used as rodenticides. But somehow it's good for us to take. You can search this.
 
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P

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
The way the vitamin D rat poison kills is thru VERY HIGH doses causing hypercalcemia. I forget about that. The combination of calcium and vitamin D especially too high has probably killed many people (probably especially ones who are deficient in K2). i think studies have pointed that out. The triumvirate calcium, D3 and K2 all work together. Sunlight can make massive doses of vitamin D in body and sunlight (the kind that is 50 degrees above horizon and not at high altitudes - there is some naval website that will calculate this for your location) is generally healthy.

One of vitamin D's mission is to shuttle calcium from outside into your body. That's good and dandy but if the process stops there, it is deadly. The calcium now has to be shuttled to the bones or teeth. If it goes to wrong places, it is deadly. This is where vitamin K2 comes in. If excesses aren't excreted out by parathyroid, it is deadly. If one takes too much calcium that body can't process, it is deadly. Having good vitamin D levels is good up to a point.

The question becomes how much calcium, vitamin D and K2 do we need. I don't know. There are many factors like diet, how often one gets sunlight etc. Vitamin D levels above 60??? are statistically healthy so one could accept that as a starting point and take enough to at least get above 50 or 60. Calcium in diet is much safer than supplements. Mercola advises I believe never go above 300mg. Unless I have a therapeutic purpose, I minimize calcium supplementation. Studies of population groups in one study indicated that a calcium dietary intake of 133 mg was sufficient so the body usually doesn't need a lot but vitamin D levels need to be enough to take it in. Anybody using D3 and calcium should also supplement with enough mk4 and mk7 to protect themselves. Some people use only mk7. This may help but it may not protect them from calcification. In the end, we must ball park our situation and make a best guess on what's right for us.

For me, I err on side of keeping any supplementing calcium intake on low side and since i'm not getting much sunlight at the moment so I am taking 2000 IU. I have been taking very high dose K2 mk4 and some mk7 maybe once a day. Body will get rid of any K2 it doesn't use. What someone else needs to do may be different from me because we each have different situations. If I find my blood levels of vitamin D are too low, I may decide to up my dose of D3.

This is a murky area. Until we have enough anecdotal and other evidence, we make our best guesses based upon a lot of things.

as an aside, vitamin k2 mk4 may help improve dentinal fluid flow in teeth. this is like the teeth blood supply. this allows teeth to to get nutrients hence heal itself. sugar blocks the flow.

p.s. i assume Nitro means nitroglycerin
 
V

Vitaranger

Messages
3
Yes, nitroglycerin I had to take previously. In reguard to the calcium there is not much discussion on the web about how calcium moves to the bones. I am not a scientist, but my understanding we need collagen helix structure that the calcium attaches to after the gla protein is activated by K2. (There are a few decent videos on youtube about this) When we look at how we get collagen its from synthesis of vitamin C. Most animals on the planet make there own vit. C, except humans few others such as guinea pigs. So it seems vit. C is important for us. Collagen peptides are also available.
 
G

Grimm

Messages
10
Using orfarin 3mg (warfarin) for 7 years, have trouble with teeth (tartar) - odontologist don't want to remove it because they afraid that they won't stop the bleeding. Uses warfarin because have artificial heart valve and asked doctor about using vitamin K2 but he disagree. So wat do you think about it? What options can u offer?
 
P

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
Grimm said:
Using orfarin 3mg (warfarin) for 7 years, have trouble with teeth (tartar) - odontologist don't want to remove it because they afraid that they won't stop the bleeding. Uses warfarin because have artificial heart valve and asked doctor about using vitamin K2 but he disagree. So wat do you think about it? What options can u offer?
Click to expand...

coumadin removes vitamin K from blood. ... yikes
coumadin increases calcification

in my research, the natural medicine replacement for coumadin (warfarin) would be nattokinase-serrapeptase without side effects. there will be no scientific studies on this because coumadin and other expensive drugs would be obsoleted.

most doctors are not educated about natural medicine. they would also be waiting for those scientific studies that will never be done. there are also legal consequences if he prescribes any natural medicine.

i am unfamiliar with artificial heart valve so can't address your specific situation.

as far as preventing or curing heart valve calcification, i'd do the high dose vitamin K2 MK4

there isn't enough anecdotal evidence about the calcification issue. we are experimenting. if someone does have success, i hope we hear from them. even if they do have success, will they know it. you will need to do the research and make that decision. few doctors will go down the natural medicine path much unless the medical associations endorse it.
 
A

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
3,024
i believe long term coumadin is contraindicated and can lead to osteoporosis and hardening of the arteries. I would suggest finding a better doc to change it to a less harmful medication so you can start taking K2 to hopefully reverse the increased heart disease risk you now have.
 
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G

Grimm

Messages
10
Like the same doctor said - there aren't any drugs to change it because of artificial heart valve.. I checked in site drugs.com about coagulants(Eliquis, pradaxa and etc) and they put warning like: is not for patients with artificial heart valves.

@prioris Thank you for you offer about - nattokinase-serrapeptase but is s there other option (synthetic drugs)? Taking vitamin k2 supplements requires to take more often blood tests. Like is there a dose that doesn't require often blood tests (I'm asking this because he is truck driver - so he is working like 2 month and after that takes 2 weeks of holiday)?
 
A

Alvin2

The good news is patients don't die the bad news..
Messages
3,024
I seem to recall reading that K2 can be taken with coumadin since its not directly involved with coagulation, something about INR levels, i don't recall. Worth googling.
However just because one doctor says something it does not mean they are correct, if it was i would be dead by now with no diagnosis or assistance because there is nothing wrong with me, ME/CFS doesn't exist therefore i can't have it. Thats what i would have gotten listening to only one doctor.
 
P

prioris

Senior Member
Messages
622
Alvin2 said:
@prioris Thank you for you offer about - nattokinase-serrapeptase but is s there other option (synthetic drugs)? Taking vitamin k2 supplements requires to take more often blood tests. Like is there a dose that doesn't require often blood tests (I'm asking this because he is truck driver - so he is working like 2 month and after that takes 2 weeks of holiday)?

I seem to recall reading that K2 can be taken with coumadin since its not directly involved with coagulation, something about INR levels, i don't recall. Worth googling.
However just because one doctor says something it does not mean they are correct, if it was i would be dead by now with no diagnosis or assistance because there is nothing wrong with me, ME/CFS doesn't exist therefore i can't have it. Thats what i would have gotten listening to only one doctor.
Click to expand...

They say that one should not take vitamin K if one is taking Coumadin. That is INSANITY. It should be one should not take coumadin if one is taking vitamin K. Coumadin is a drug that people should not take because of all the negative effects it can have. Having to avoid vitamin K is just pure insanity. First step should be to phase out Coumadin for more healthy alternatives.

On the other hand, getting to the point where one has already put in an artificial heart valve starts complicating matters. The same with stents. Trying to head off those events would be better. If it was me, I would take my chances and phase out Coumadin and start high dose K2 MK4+7.

Here is some discussion I found that may help you in regard to taking K2 and coumadin
-------------------------------------------
http://www.valvereplacement.org/forums/forum/heart-talk/38392-vitamin-k2-and-warfarin/page4
Hi Hook
I've been taking 100 mcg of Vit K-2 every day since last year without any drastic changes in my INR and I've been taking the same dose of Coumadin as well. It's all good.
Sandra
-------------------------------------------

I also remember seeing some study that said taking K2 with coumadin is fine but it was a blip somewhere on internet

When your trying to advise other people, it's way more difficult. To a certain point, you can minimize some risk but really it should be left with the truck driver to inform himself and decide. Plus you don't know all the other hidden conditions that the truck driver may have. For all you know, he could be ready to drop dead anyway. It's a messy situation to get involved in. I'd be clear to him that you can give him advice but that he ultimately decides and accepts any consequences.

Long term studies on warfarin indicated that it had no effect on heart disease death. The calcification build up ultimately evens everything out.
 
E

Eastman

Senior Member
Messages
526
There was this study:

Vitamin K supplementation can improve stability of anticoagulation for patients with unexplained variability in response to warfarin.
Abstract
Patients receiving warfarin who have unstable control of anticoagulation have a significantly lower intake of dietary vitamin K compared with their stable counterparts. We hypothesized that supplementation with oral vitamin K would improve stability in patients with previously unstable control of anticoagulation. Seventy warfarin-treated patients with unstable anticoagulation control were randomly assigned in a double-blinded fashion to receive a daily amount of 150 μg oral vitamin K or placebo orally for 6 months. Measures of stability of anticoagulation control in the 6-month study period were compared with those in the 6 months immediately prior to it. Vitamin K supplementation resulted in a significantly greater decrease in standard deviation of international normalized ratio (INR) compared with placebo (−0.24 ± 0.14 vs −0.11 ± 0.18; P < .001) and a significantly greater increase in percentage time within target INR range (28% ± 20% vs 15% ± 20%; P < .01). Anticoagulation control improved in 33 of 35 patients receiving vitamin K supplementation; of these, 19 fulfilled our criteria for having stable control of anticoagulation. However, only 24 of 33 patients receiving placebo demonstrated some degree of improvement, with only 7 patients fulfilling the criteria for having stable control. Concomitant supplementation of vitamin K, perhaps through reducing the relative day-to-day variability in dietary vitamin K intake, can significantly improve anticoagulation control in patients with unexplained instability of response to warfarin.
Click to expand...
 
G

Grimm

Messages
10
prioris said:
coumadin removes vitamin K from blood. ... yikes
coumadin increases calcification

in my research, the natural medicine replacement for coumadin (warfarin) would be nattokinase-serrapeptase without side effects. there will be no scientific studies on this because coumadin and other expensive drugs would be obsoleted.

most doctors are not educated about natural medicine. they would also be waiting for those scientific studies that will never be done. there are also legal consequences if he prescribes any natural medicine.

i am unfamiliar with artificial heart valve so can't address your specific situation.

as far as preventing or curing heart valve calcification, i'd do the high dose vitamin K2 MK4

there isn't enough anecdotal evidence about the calcification issue. we are experimenting. if someone does have success, i hope we hear from them. even if they do have success, will they know it. you will need to do the research and make that decision. few doctors will go down the natural medicine path much unless the medical associations endorse it.
Click to expand...

About nattokinase - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4264722/
 
Chocolove

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
Grimm said:
Using orfarin 3mg (warfarin) for 7 years, have trouble with teeth (tartar) - odontologist don't want to remove it because they afraid that they won't stop the bleeding. Uses warfarin because have artificial heart valve and asked doctor about using vitamin K2 but he disagree. So wat do you think about it? What options can u offer?
Click to expand...
Vitamin K is very different from vitamin K2, so much so that there is suggestion that they be separately named. If you read about their differences I think you may find that doctors are concerned primarily about vitamin K decreasing blood thinner drug results. I don't think that is an issue with K2, however that comes from foggy memory, but it's worth checking into.
 
Chocolove

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
So in determining whether purchase of vitamin K2 supplements is a worthy investment, it helps to know what form of APOE you have.

"So here is the bottom line for APOE. It comes in Three SNPS: APOE2, APOE3, and APOE4.
Around 7% of us have inherited the APOE2 SNP.
Most of us, about 78% of us, carry the SNP for APOE3, and
about 14% of us have inherited the SNP for APOE4."

"Most of us, 78% of us, carry the APOE3 SNP.
So we clear our Vitamin K2 delivering cholesterol neither too quickly nor too slowly and will do best with MK7. It’s easy to find out which form of APOE you have. Your doctor can run a blood test that will tell you. Or...

You may be very interested if you have APOE4; K2 supplementation could be very beneficial for these folk:

APOE ε4 is called a risk-factor gene because it increases a person's risk of developing the disease; however, inheriting an APOE ε4 allele does not mean that a person will definitely develop Alzheimer disease. Feb 21, 2015
Alzheimer Disease and APOE-4: Overview, Clinical Implications
emedicine.medscape.com/article/1787482-overview

*"If you are among the 14% whose genetic inheritance includes a SNP for APOE4, you will remove Vitamin K rich lipoproteins from your bloodstream more quickly than the average person.
Because of this, you are going to need more K2 than the average person.

You will definitely want to be taking Vitamin K2 in the form of MK7. And you may need greater doses than the 120 micrograms per day which is the dose recommended for the average person.

On the other hand, if you are among the 7% of us who have inherited the APOE2 SNP, you’re going to clear Vitamin K rich lipoproteins, and therefore Vitamin K2, more slowly than the average person. If you take the average amount of MK7, it may accumulate to greater levels in your body and in your brain, promote energy production so effectively in your brain that you have trouble sleeping."

Quotes from: https://www.algaecal.com/expert-insights/this-protein-can-affect-how-much-vitamin-k2-you-need/
 
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