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Has Anyone Ever Tried a Gallbladder Flush?

howirecovered

Senior Member
Messages
167
I did so a few years ago, and it was a success. I produced nearly fifty small gallstones. I just did another last night, but it made me so sick and while I produced a lot of bile, I did not see quite so many gallstones this time around. Has anyone else ever tried this?

Yes, I've been doing one flush a month for five months now and what's coming out is amazing to me. There's a picture here from my last flush: http://howirecovered.com/how-i-nearly-destroyed-my-liver/

My bile flow has increased substantially which I believe is going to make me feel bad for some time to come until I've drained the toxins from my swampy liver. Guessing that could take as long as a year based on Hulda Clark's statement that sick people need to clear around 2000 stones.

Flushing is very hard for me and especially the evening flush because fasting makes me nearly comatose. So I'm going back to morning flushes using the formula I've posted here. I agree with Wayne about the harshness of Epsom salts and try to use as little as possible, but consider it really vital to get the stones out so will keep using for now...
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Please note that the passing of stones from the gallbladder into the bile ducts is quite often associated with pancreatitis, septicaemia and death. Which is why it is often recommended that if stones are found by chance in the gallbladder that the gallbladder should be removed even if there are no symptoms. Just so that people know.
 

howirecovered

Senior Member
Messages
167
Please note that the passing of stones from the gallbladder into the bile ducts is quite often associated with pancreatitis, septicaemia and death. Which is why it is often recommended that if stones are found by chance in the gallbladder that the gallbladder should be removed even if there are no symptoms. Just so that people know.

I'm not following this at all - can you explain? Have read lots of stories of people with chronic gallbladder attacks who have cured themselves either by liver flushing or with even simpler remedies like apple cider vinegar or malic acid. On rare occasions, people doing a liver flush will have a stone get stuck, but by repeating the flush the stone gets flushed out. So it doesn't sound to me like death is very probable for somebody knowledgeable about liver flushing...
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
I'm not following this at all - can you explain? Have read lots of stories of people with chronic gallbladder attacks who have cured themselves either by liver flushing or with even simpler remedies like apple cider vinegar or malic acid. On rare occasions, people doing a liver flush will have a stone get stuck, but by repeating the flush the stone gets flushed out. So it doesn't sound to me like death is very probable for somebody knowledgeable about liver flushing...

I think that is because 'liver flushing' has nothing to do with gallstones.

Passing real gallstones is seriously dangerous. I have seen several people nearly die. Acute ascending cholangitis from a stone passed into the duct used to be one of the most feared of medical emergencies.
 

howirecovered

Senior Member
Messages
167
I think that is because 'liver flushing' has nothing to do with gallstones.

I've read that it's common for gallstones to come out when liver flushing. I'm told the gallstones sink. I had so many different types of stones come out, I really don't know what was what... Some looked like gallstones but I don't think they sank.

It sounds to me like flushing may be a good way to prevent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascending_cholangitis - Of course, I'm not a doctor but I think it would be difficult to find an MD who has actually done a series of liver flushes. And I don't think I could trust anyone's opinion on liver flushing who has not actually done it.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Gall stones sink. They are either round and rough and hard like limescale or they chalky hard and have flat faces like split peas. You cannot soften them. Anything the slightest bit soft is not a gallstone. I would check these 'stones' out again.
 

jimells

Senior Member
Messages
2,009
Location
northern Maine
And I don't think I could trust anyone's opinion on liver flushing who has not actually done it.

You can trust that any opinion offered by Jonathan is honest and informed. If he don't know the answer he will say so. He has more experience and expertise in his little finger than most of the rest of us put together. I sure wish I could find someone like him to be my primary care provider. I am grateful for his participation in our little forum; I have learned a lot from him already.
 

Butydoc

Senior Member
Messages
790
I've read that it's common for gallstones to come out when liver flushing. I'm told the gallstones sink. I had so many different types of stones come out, I really don't know what was what... Some looked like gallstones but I don't think they sank.

It sounds to me like flushing may be a good way to prevent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascending_cholangitis - Of course, I'm not a doctor but I think it would be difficult to find an MD who has actually done a series of liver flushes. And I don't think I could trust anyone's opinion on liver flushing who has not actually done it.
Hi Howirecovered,

I'm not sure your logic concerning someone who hasn't tried a certain therapy can't be trusted make sense. 99% of therapeutic options I recommend to my patients I haven't tried. If I treat someone with a complex wound, does it mean that my treatment shouldn't be trusted? Do you believe that only therapies that a physician has personally tried are valid or should be trusted?

Best,
Gary
 

howirecovered

Senior Member
Messages
167
I'm not sure your logic concerning someone who hasn't tried a certain therapy can't be trusted make sense. 99% of therapeutic options I recommend to my patients I haven't tried. If I treat someone with a complex wound, does it mean that my treatment shouldn't be trusted? Do you believe that only therapies that a physician has personally tried are valid or should be trusted?

Well, maybe I spoke too broadly. I was referring to the "saponified oil" nonsense mostly. I do think it's possible for a practitioner to develop a lot of insight based on treating many many people, making mistakes along the way and having successes too.

I personally fell into the mistake category with most MDs and I've had a number of MDs make mistakes with me because their knowledge was insufficient and/or their biases strong.

I've also read experts who genuinely have very deep knowledge in one area, give mistaken uninformed opinions in areas where their knowledge is not as deep. Easy for this to happen when you don't have firsthand experience, but you do have lots of authority and credibility which encourages you to have opinions about everything...
 

howirecovered

Senior Member
Messages
167
Gall stones sink. They are either round and rough and hard like limescale or they chalky hard and have flat faces like split peas. You cannot soften them. Anything the slightest bit soft is not a gallstone. I would check these 'stones' out again.
That's helpful! I have not had any gallstones come out. But a wide variety of colors, consistencies and densities in the liver stones.
 

South

Senior Member
Messages
466
Location
Southeastern United States
Amongst the crowd on this thread trying to discredit the liver flush / gall bladder flush, I'd like to be one of the other voices, who on this thread might otherwise be outnumbered.

The liver flush aka gallbladder flushes have produced stuff that is not just saponified oil, in a good number of people. I've seen it, seen photos/ descriptions from friends who have done it, and read analysis done with scientific instruments in someone's private kitchen (kitchen properly sterilized afterwards, of course) on the things coming out of these people's bodies.

Thanks. If I had more time tonight, I'd dig out those citations. But since the naysayers haven't dug theirs out, and since it's late at night here, I won't.
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
Amongst the crowd on this thread trying to discredit the liver flush / gall bladder flush, I'd like to be one of the other voices, who on this thread might otherwise be outnumbered.

The liver flush aka gallbladder flushes have produced stuff that is not just saponified oil, in a good number of people. I've seen it, seen photos/ descriptions from friends who have done it, and read analysis done with scientific instruments in someone's private kitchen (kitchen properly sterilized afterwards, of course) on the things coming out of these people's bodies.

Thanks. If I had more time tonight, I'd dig out those citations. But since the naysayers haven't dug theirs out, and since it's late at night here, I won't.

and what did the analysis show? just because there is not just oil it doesn't necessarily mean that they are gallstones.
 
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Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
If people want to believe these are gallstones or liver stones (the same thing) then I have no problem but it is worth noting how dangerous passing gallstones is. This is not something in an esoteric area. All trained doctors get taught about the dangers of gallstone passage as students and all of us have seen cases of pancreatitis and ascending cholangitis when we were interns or residents and felt the stones in our hands when we assisted at cholecystectomy. That may not happen so much these days but it applies to my generation. The Mayo Clinic gives the basic idea (the site URL is actually subtitled 'basics'), although they do not mention that people die of these complications. Maybe that is not so common now but it used to be.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gallstones/basics/complications/con-20020461
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I passed a gallstone once, and it was extremely painful (not in a GI sense), and concerned my GP a fair bit. I now watch my fat intake pretty carefully, especially if I start getting some pain in the wrong spot, and the doctor sounds like she'd want to do something more dramatic to resolve the issue if it happens again. There's a large risk of infection associated with it, from what I recall, as the stone can scrape or puncture things on the way out.

Large amounts of straight olive oil are known to produce the same things which people are claiming to be dozens of large gallstones, and are not-so-coincidentally producing after swallowing olive oil :rolleyes: They don't have the pain associated with passing large gallstones, nor the infections that would eventually result. If someone thinks that their liver is really producing that many gallstones, they should be talking to their doctor about it immediately. Oddly, no one has gotten the "stones" tested properly - and Some Guy From The Internet doing it on his kitchen counter does not count.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
AFAIK, what comes out is a mixture of bile and cholesterol from the liver (as well as the ingested oil). But perhaps some toxins come out with the sludge?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
With alternative medicine treatments, you sometimes first need to separate the conceptual wheat from the chaff. Let's try to do this:



Why The "Stones" Found in the Feces After a Gallbladder Flush Cannot be Gallstones

First of all, for those who believe gallbladder flushes are pulling out gallstones: a little bit thought on this matter will convince you otherwise:

Think about this: repeated flushes keep producing more "stones" on each occasion. But the gallbladder is a smallish organ, so there simply would not be enough room inside it for all those "stones" that keep coming out every time you flush. So obviously what you see in the feces cannot be gallstones, but globules containing bile, cholesterol, and emulsified oil. Bile is a dark green to yellowish brown fluid, incidentally, which is the hue these "stones" have.

Also think about this: if what is seen in the feces were genuine gallstones, then once you had removed a set of them with a flush, and immediately felt the health benefits from doing so, then your health would be permanently better, because the stones would have been permanently removed. However, in fact people report the health benefits of gallbladder flushes wear off after 2 or 3 weeks, thereby showing that the idea of them passing gallstones cannot be correct.



How Do the Health Benefits of Gallbladder Flushes Arise?

But if gallbladder flushes are nothing to do with passing gallstones, how do gallbladder flushes lead to the observed health improvements? People report benefits such as: improved digestion, more energy, better sleep, increased mental clarity, healthier skin and hair, decreased headaches and decreased joint aches.

Presumably these health benefits must be something to do with the large amount of oil being consumed in one go, and the volume of bile secreted as a result of consuming this oil. Bile is secreted because one of the functions of bile is emulsifying dietary fats and oils so that they can be absorbed in the intestines.

However, another function of bile is detoxification: bile is one of the vehicles by which toxins are removed from the body. Bile binds to the toxins, and then carries them out of the body. So one might guess that with all this bile being secreted via a gallbladder flush, this will lead to intense detoxification session.

The type of toxins removed by bile include bacterial toxins, and mycotoxins from any fungal or mold infections with the body. Both of these type of toxins are constantly being generated by these microbes in the body, and thus need to be constantly detoxified.

Normally though bile is an imperfect vehicle for toxin removal, because around 95% of bile acids are reabsorbed by the small intestine and returned to the liver, which means that the toxins carried in the bile are also reabsorbed and routed back to the liver, rather than being eliminated from the body.

However, if there is a sudden flood in the quantity of bile in the intestines, then conceivably the sheer volume of bile may outstrip the intestines' ability to reabsorb it (and especially outstrip the active transport process in the ileum which absorbs conjugated bile acids). During this flood, the toxins carried by the bile may be flushed right out of the body.

So this flood of bile may be much more effective in fully removing toxins from the body.



Gallbladder Flushes for ME/CFS Patients

The postulated ability of gallbladder flushes to more efficiently remove toxins from the body might be useful for ME/CFS patients. Dr Richie Shoemaker finds that cholestyramine (Questran) is useful for patients whose illness involves neurotoxins, as this drug improves the detoxification process. Cholestyramine works by binding to bile acids and preventing their reabsorption, thus ensuring the toxins carried in the bile are expelled from the body and not returned back to the liver.

Conceivably, gallbladder flushes might offer similar detoxification benefits to cholestyramine.

Dr Shoemaker uses the visual contrast sensitivity test (VCS) to help determine whether patients have high levels of neurotoxins. This visual test utilizes your eye's ability to detect shades of contrast as a means to gauge your exposure to neurotoxins such as mycotoxins.

If your VCS result indicates high levels of neurotoxins, then conceivably gallbladder flushes might be particularly helpful, as would cholestyramine.

A free version of the VCS test, which takes just a few minutes to complete, can be found online here. This test was developed by Dr Ritchie C. Shoemaker and Dr H. Kenneth Hudnell.


Dr Joseph Brewer found mycotoxins were extremely common in ME/CFS patients but entirely absent in healthy controls, and suggested that these mycotoxins may constantly be created by mold infections in certain body sites such as the sinuses.

So gallbladder flushes might help to better remove these mycotoxins from ME/CFS patients.

It's interesting that the mold toxins gliotoxin and patulin have been shown shift the immune response towards the Th2 mode, which may hamper the body's ability to fight viral infections.



Note that bitter herbs and foods like dandelion increase bile flow. A herb or medicine that increases bile secretion and flow is called a cholagogue.
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
The ability of olive oil to remove toxins is completely speculative, as far as I can tell? And that visual acuity test isn't particularly useful. The biggest factor in determining the outcome for me is the angle at which I tilt my laptop screen.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
The ability of olive oil to remove toxins is completely speculative, as far as I can tell?

Yes of course. It's a hypothesized mechanism which might explain why people performing these gallbladder flushes experience temporary health benefits. I was trying to come up with other possible explanations, but detoxification via a high flow of bile was the only one that occurred to me.

The explanation is certainly going to be nothing to do with gallstones.

And that visual acuity test isn't particularly useful. The biggest factor in determining the outcome for me is the angle at which I tilt my laptop screen.

Do you know if your laptop LCD monitor is the cheaper twisted nematic (TN) type, or the in-plane switching (IPS) type? TN monitors are characterized by large variations in contrast as you change viewing angles, and often the screen cannot be viewed at all if you look from the side. Whereas IPS monitors provide a much more consistent image across all viewing angles. I have an IPS monitor, and I find there is not much variation in the visual contrast sensitivity test as I change my head angle. Gamers apparently prefer TN monitors though because the image update response time of TN is faster.