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Gingergrrl's Journey with Famvir

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Hi @Gingergrrl. If I'm remembering this correctly, you've changed your diet recently to exclude gluten, dairy, etc. Did your ND tell you that you'd need to re-evaluate your meds and supplements because your body will be returning to a healthier state? The timing is individual.
Reduction or elimination of certain meds or supps needs to be slow. So far I haven't seen anyone who knows exactly how much anyone can heal via diet. But most of the celiacs I know who were very sick prior to going gf are as shocked as I was by how many of our symptoms were related to our diet. From what I've seen multiple intolerances are common in celiacs too. Of course non celiac gluten sensitivity can be just as damaging.

@xchocoholic Thank you and you are correct that I drastically changed my diet with my ND (and you have a great memory!!!) I do not have celiac (was tested) but chose to eliminate gluten b/c of Hashimoto's disease and have now been 100% gluten free for abut ten months (prior to even starting with my ND.) I did the food sensitivity test w/my ND which showed leaky gut and multiple high inflammatory foods which led to eliminating all dairy, eggs, yeast, cane sugar, soy and corn.

This was to be for three months and then we re-test which will actually be at my appt on Tues. I have followed this diet religiously and not deviated once! My ND monitors my supplements at each appt but does not prescribe my meds. My stomach has significantly improved from the diet and the plan is to slowly re-introduce certain foods based on the results of the re-test (which will take several weeks to get back.)
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Gingergrrl How is your BP? Did your cardio ever consider a calcium channel blocker rather than a beta blocker? A calcium channel blocker will lower both BP and HR, so wouldn't be a good idea if you have low BP--my guess anyway! Sushi

@Sushi, You guys are amazing with all the feedback and info I am getting and am so glad I started this thread to track my journey with Famvir (and overall treatment.)

My BP has always been low (even pre-CFS) and the average reading for me is systolic in the 90's and diastolic in the 60's. My cardiologist did have me try a calcium channel blocker at one point (Diltiazem) and I only lasted through one pill! It lowered my BP to 84/53 and I threw up and almost fainted (which NEVER happens to me.) I felt as if I had cotton inside my head and was awake the whole night. She told me to stop it and we went back to the Atenolol. I do not get the drop in BP when I stand, I just have low BP overall.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
@Gingergrrl,
I don't recall -- are you taking Florinef? For some people it is necessary to deal with low blood volume before determining if tachy is compensatory or pathological.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@SOC I started Florinef in June and my cardiologist initially had me take it on a 3x/wk schedule of Mon, Weds & Fri (her idea- not sure if this is common or weird?!!) and I slowly built up to every day. It gave me headaches and made me feel uncomfortable so I only take 1/4 tablet every day.

When I tried the 1/2 tablet for a few days in a row I had so much tachycardia and shortness of breath that I actually went to the ER (this was back in June and I was very new to PR at that time so you guys may not remember!) It is possible that the episode was unrelated to Florinef and timing just a coincidence.

Shortly after that, we switched my Atenolol from PRN to every morning and the tachycardia literally improved over night. The shortness of breath continued which led to me having an echocardiogram and then this week the exercise echocardiogram.

So to answer your question, I really am not sure if the Florinef is helping me in any way. How would I know if the tachycardia is compensatory vs. pathological? And by pathological, do you still mean autonomic dysfunction? It was determined by multiple tests over a year and a half that my heart never leaves sinus rhythm and I do not have any kind of arrythmia.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
How would I know if the tachycardia is compensatory vs. pathological? And by pathological, do you still mean autonomic dysfunction? It was determined by multiple tests over a year and a half that my heart never leaves sinus rhythm and I do not have any kind of arrythmia.
All I really meant was -- is your tachy a positive response by your body trying to compensate for insufficient blood getting to your upper body/brain, or is it strictly a neurological or cardiac condition independent of blood volume?

Your situation could be entirely different from mine. For me, the CCB first just gave me trouble and I went off it. I had to get my blood volume up with Florinef, electrolytes, and fluid-loading first. Once that situation settled, we added back the CCB because I still had some tachy, although not as bad. THEN my OI symptoms improved considerably. That is not going to work for everyone -- we all have different dysautonomia situations. :)
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I have never had a real TTT b/c my cardiologist captured the episodes of IST and POTS both in her office and when I wore a Zio Patch monitor (three separate times over a year and a half.) She said the TTT would not add anything to what she had already witnessed and it was a very difficult test that could make me sicker and she didn't want to put me through it since she already knew I had autonomic dysfunction, IST & POTS symptoms. Do you think there would still be some benefit?
A TTT might have helped with finding that there's a problem beyond the tachycardia, but it's probably not necessary now that they're running blood tests for those potential underlying problems anyhow :p
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I do not get the drop in BP when I stand, I just have low BP overall.
Have you ever specifically looked to see if your pulse pressure drops at all when you stand? It's the difference between the systolic and diastolic values, but most doctors don't even know it exists. Yet it seems to be a somewhat common problem for us.
 

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
@zzz You asked if drinking a lot of water, salt tablets (and in my case Florinef) help the POTS and I really am not sure. I had trouble tolerating Florinef and only take 1/4 tablet. I know my doses must sound incredibly low but my body processes things differently and I do not stand a chance when I take meds at a high dose. When I feel shaky & jittery which I did last night with the tachycardia, the electrolytes & salt do help.

One of the best things you can do for both ME and POTS is drink lots of water accompanied by electrolytes. I find that especially when my symptoms start to flare, drinking a pint or two of water can make a really big difference in a fairly short amount of time. But you don't need to wait for a flare-up; the best advice I've heard is that any time your mouth or lips feel dry, you should drink some water.

There are some studies that show that Florinef is somewhat helpful in increasing blood volume, and there are others that show that it makes no difference. It's one of those drugs that theoretically should work a lot more than it actually does. The ME specialists I've heard speak on the subject have said that it's not useful for the low blood volume that accompanies ME. I had my blood plasma volume measured back in 2000, and it was 25% below the predicted value, which is low even by ME standards. My doctor back then said to me, "No wonder you're tired!" and put me on Florinef. I was able to tolerate it for a couple of weeks, but it made no improvement at all. Then I lost my tolerance to it, and had to come off it. I was no worse when I came off it.
When I tried the 1/2 tablet for a few days in a row I had so much tachycardia and shortness of breath that I actually went to the ER (this was back in June and I was very new to PR at that time so you guys may not remember!) It is possible that the episode was unrelated to Florinef and timing just a coincidence.

If you're not seeing results from the Florinef, you might want to talk to your doctor about whether or not to continue it. Florinef also depletes magnesium and potassium, which is exactly the opposite of what you want to do for both ME and POTS. A magnesium deficiency can cause both tachycardia and shortness of breath; I've experienced this myself. So I don't think your experience was a coincidence.

When I had problems with my heart, I started negotiating with my doctor for magnesium injections, as I was following Dr. Myhill's advice that these were the best way to go for ME in general, and that supplements (which I was taking) usually were unable to supply the amount of magnesium that a person with ME needs. While the negotiations stretched out, I got worse and worse. Even lying in bed, I was gasping for breath, and there was a dull pain in my heart, as if it were simply working too hard (which it probably was). It became harder and harder to get out of bed. Eventually, my doctor mailed me a letter telling me why he would not go along with high-dose magnesium. Fortunately, I had seen this coming, and had ordered a nebulizer and some magnesium. When I got his letter, I started using the nebulizer, and got immediate relief. Magnesium has a very long tissue half life (40 to 80 days), which is why it can take up to a year for the extra magnesium to fully take effect. Over the first three months of the nebulizer use, all my cardio-pulmonary symptoms disappeared. I felt better in other ways as well, such as getting much better sleep. My cardio-pulmonary symptoms have not returned.

Considering that you got worse when you increased your Florinef and your magnesium levels presumably dropped, I would expect that you would have a good response to high-dose magnesium as well. Most people with ME respond very well to it. I would recommend seeing if your doctor would give you a magnesium injection while you're in the office; if it works, it works immediately. Here are Dr. Cheney's instructions for magnesium injections:
Many patients benefit from magnesium injections, which are virtually painless with the addition of taurine. The Magnesium used by most is Magnesium Sulfate—standard 50% solution—1/2 cc drawn into the syringe first, followed by 1 1/2 cc's of Taurine. The Taurine is compounded at 50 mg/cc. The taurine makes the injection virtually painless and the ratio eliminates the hard knots many are familiar with. The injection is intramuscular, given in upper, outer quadrant of either buttock. Both require scripts from a doctor.

You would then need to do daily injections at home. (Having a husband to give them makes it a lot easier.) Or, you could do what I did and use a nebulizer instead. Many people with POTS and/or ME have found benefit from high-dose magnesium; I think you would too. It sounds like your doctors are a lot more open than mine was back then, so you should be able to do this under their supervision. Also, if you take high-dose magnesium, it's important to take a potassium supplement too.
My BP has always been low (even pre-CFS) and the average reading for me is systolic in the 90's and diastolic in the 60's.

Technically, that's normal blood pressure; low blood pressure is defined to be 90/60 or lower. If you feel OK at that BP (since you said it's always been low), that shouldn't be a problem. Low blood volume tends to make an otherwise normal BP feel low, though.
I have never had a real TTT b/c my cardiologist captured the episodes of IST and POTS both in her office and when I wore a Zio Patch monitor (three separate times over a year and a half.) She said the TTT would not add anything to what she had already witnessed and it was a very difficult test that could make me sicker and she didn't want to put me through it since she already knew I had autonomic dysfunction, IST & POTS symptoms. Do you think there would still be some benefit?
Dr. Goldstein recommended against TTTs for the same reason your cardiologist did. He thought it was quite straightforward to diagnose a patient without the stress and expense of a TTT. Of course, this goes for skilled doctors. For those doctors who have no idea of what's going on, a TTT may be necessary. Luckily, your cardiologist is not one of those doctors.
My cardiologist did have me try a calcium channel blocker at one point (Diltiazem) and I only lasted through one pill! It lowered my BP to 84/53 and I threw up and almost fainted.

Now THAT's low blood pressure. I know at one point I was down to 86/69 (standing), and I didn't feel too good myself. Although my numbers were slightly higher than yours, my pulse pressure (which Valentijn mentioned) was quite low, which means my blood was barely moving. (Not that there was that much of it to move in the first place.) I felt quite dizzy and had to lie down, but I didn't go to the extremes you did.
 
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xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
@xchocoholic Thank you and you are correct that I drastically changed my diet with my ND (and you have a great memory!!!) I do not have celiac (was tested) but chose to eliminate gluten b/c of Hashimoto's disease and have now been 100% gluten free for abut ten months (prior to even starting with my ND.) I did the food sensitivity test w/my ND which showed leaky gut and multiple high inflammatory foods which led to eliminating all dairy, eggs, yeast, cane sugar, soy and corn.

This was to be for three months and then we re-test which will actually be at my appt on Tues. I have followed this diet religiously and not deviated once! My ND monitors my supplements at each appt but does not prescribe my meds. My stomach has significantly improved from the diet and the plan is to slowly re-introduce certain foods based on the results of the re-test (which will take several weeks to get back.)

I wish I knew why some people can add foods back and some can't. The first naturopath I saw in 1990-2 told me I could re-introduce foods I was intolerant to but the integrative doctor I saw recently strongly recommended I stay away from these. Maybe that protocal is changing. Or maybe my dr just knew that about me.

Fwiw, everything I ate caused pain and other problems back in 2005, which is why I think I had full blown celiac by then, but that subsided after about 6 months. After a few years I managed to add back in most foods but still react to gluten, gf processed foods (gf garbage), dairy, corn, soy, yeast, high oxalate foods and certain chemicals.

Bacon and tomatoes were causing moderate to severe fibro pain if I ate these twice in a row. Now for better or worse, I can eat these and only get mild discomfort / stiffness. Kow. As of 1/2014, can eat gf processed foods (gf garbage) now too. Kow. Maybe DGL or Digest Spectrum helped ??? I don't know my antibody, etc levels tho.

There used to be a gf forum where we discussed how we were sometimes able to get off or reduce certain meds. I think the medical professionals involved in the gluten summit discuss this. Dr Davis is a cardiologist and may have info on your heart symptoms.

Give it at least one year on a strict gf diet is what Dr Hadjivassilou (gluten ataxia researcher) was telling his ataxia patients. I'm not sure if his ataxia patients had as many dx as pwcs do tho. I think I just got lucky on that one.

Tc .. x
 
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SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
The ME specialists I've heard speak on the subject have said that it's not useful for the low blood volume that accompanies ME.
I'd be interested to know which ME doctors have said that. Is there any documentation? What do they think is the reason for low blood volume that accompanies ME?

All the top ME/CFS specialists I've heard about use Florinef when the symptoms suggest low blood volume and simple dietary measures are not sufficient. As with any medication, not all patients respond the same way so Florinef doesn't work for everyone.

The ME/CFS Primer for Clinical Practitioners says this about Florinef:
Fludrocortisone, 0.1-0.2 mg/day, can improve symptoms attributable to hypotension and hypovolemia in some patients, but the effect may not be long lasting.
 

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
I'd be interested to know which ME doctors have said that.

I've heard it from at least Dr. David Bell and Dr. Paul Cheney.
Is there any documentation?

From Dr. Cheney:
Note: Dr. Cheney has found that Florinef is not a good treatment option for NMH in most CFIDS patients. Florinef forces potassium depletion and further suppresses the HPA axis, which is already suppressed. Initial short-term benefits are seen with Florinef, but they degrade over time. With extended use Florinef actually exacerbates the disease in many patients.

Source: http://virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids. Thank you to Carol Sieverling.

Studies:

A preliminary placebo-controlled crossover trial of fludrocortisone for chronic fatigue syndrome.

Combination therapy with hydrocortisone and fludrocortisone does not improve symptoms in chronic fatigue syndrome: a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind, crossover study.

Dysautonomias: clinical disorders of the autonomic nervous system.

Fludrocortisone acetate to treat neurally mediated hypotension in chronic fatigue syndrome: a randomized controlled trial.

I actually didn't find any studies that specifically showed improvement in ME/CFS from Florinef. I looked at all the studies in PubMed.
What do they think is the reason for low blood volume that accompanies ME?

Dr. Bell found low aldosterone levels in his CFS patients with low blood volume, and concluded that this was the immediate cause. Low aldosterone levels would be expected when the HPA axis is down-regulated, as it is in ME. And if Florinef further suppresses the HPA axis, as Dr.Cheney claims, this would explain his statement that Florinef can actually exacerbate the illness in many patients.
The ME/CFS Primer for Clinical Practitioners says this about Florinef:
Fludrocortisone, 0.1-0.2 mg/day, can improve symptoms attributable to hypotension and hypovolemia in some patients, but the effect may not be long lasting.

I don't think this is significantly different from what I was saying, if you look at my quote in context. I didn't say that I heard that Florinef did nothing; I said that I heard that it's not useful. If you look at the quote from Dr. Cheney, that's essentially what he's saying. (Note that Dr. Cheney's works were typically transcribed and published by Carol Sieverling, which is why they almost always appear in the third person.)
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
It's probably due to this study: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=193426 . The treatment group did only marginally better than the placebo group, though it was a CDC CFS+NMH study, not an ME+NMH study.
Thanks for that link. That clarifies some things. Isn't NMH different from hypovolemia, though? I wouldn't expect Florinef to work if the problem was not hypovolemia, but vasoconstriction or cardiac signalling problems.
I've heard it from at least Dr. David Bell and Dr. Paul Cheney.

Studies:

A preliminary placebo-controlled crossover trial of fludrocortisone for chronic fatigue syndrome.

Combination therapy with hydrocortisone and fludrocortisone does not improve symptoms in chronic fatigue syndrome: a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind, crossover study.

Dysautonomias: clinical disorders of the autonomic nervous system.

Fludrocortisone acetate to treat neurally mediated hypotension in chronic fatigue syndrome: a randomized controlled trial.

I actually didn't find any studies that specifically showed improvement in ME/CFS from Florinef. I looked at all the studies in PubMed.


Dr. Bell found low aldosterone levels in his CFS patients with low blood volume, and concluded that this was the immediate cause. Low aldosterone levels would be expected when the HPA axis is down-regulated, as it is in ME. And if Florinef further suppresses the HPA axis, as Dr.Cheney claims, this would explain his statement that Florinef can actually exacerbate the illness in many patients.


I don't think this is significantly different from what I was saying, if you look at my quote in context. I didn't say that I heard that Florinef did nothing; I said that I heard that it's not useful. If you look at the quote from Dr. Cheney, that's essentially what he's saying. (Note that Dr. Cheney's works were typically transcribed and published by Carol Sieverling, which is why they almost always appear in the third person.)
Thank you for that information. It explains a lot. Without a doubt Florinef would not work for all people diagnosed with CFS, particularly by CDC criteria. Even patients diagnosed with ME by the ICC are unlikely to all have low blood volume. Certainly not all forms of dysautonomia involve low blood volume and consequently would not respond to Florinef. I thought we were discussing low blood volume in particular, not CFS in general, or even ME/CFS with any form of OI. Your references, while interesting, are not specifically about hypovolemia.

I don't think there's any question that Florinef doesn't improve most ME/CFS symptoms. It is very specific and limited. The treatment needs to be in the context of other symptomatic treatments in order to see any effect from it. Some people need to treat tachycardia in addition to hypovolemia to notice a difference. Others have vasoconstriction problems that would limit the effectiveness of Florinef. Most people need to increase fluid and electrolytes in order to see an effect from Florinef (although some patients don't and are surprised they are not getting the desired effect). ME/CFS is far more than hypovolemia, just like it's far more than a sleep disorder. Anyone who expects Florinef alone to make a significant impact on ME symptoms is likely to be disappointed.

HPA axis suppression is not considered significant at the low doses recommended for PWME (0.1-0.2 mg) because its glucocorticoid effects are not strong in the first place. That isn't to say it can't happen in some patients, particularly if they are taking a glucocorticoid in addition to Florinef.

Drs Bell and Cheney did amazing things for the ME/CFS patient population in the 80's and 90's and I have a great deal of respect for them. They are not, however, the most up-to-date sources for current knowledge and experience in ME treatment.

Let me try to be as clear as possible -- I am not suggesting at all that Florinef is an appropriate medication for all ME/CFS patients. It is specific to treatment for hypovolemia, which is not a symptom in every case of ME/CFS. In addition, as with any medication, there will be plenty of individuals for whom the medication is not effective for a variety of reasons. I am simply suggesting that Florinef is a reasonable, not especially risky, medication for the right patients with low blood volume. It doesn't work for everyone, but that's no reason not to try it if you have chronic (not acute) hypovolemia.

BTW @zzz, your virtualhome link to the Cheney quote doesn't work.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
All I really meant was -- is your tachy a positive response by your body trying to compensate for insufficient blood getting to your upper body/brain, or is it strictly a neurological or cardiac condition independent of blood volume?

@SOC I still am not sure b/c my autonomic dysfunction and symptoms have been all over the map and constantly shift and change. I have been told I have low blood volume but never had an official test for this. I've had periods of IST, periods of POTS, and periods with no tachycardia of any kind. It is very unpredictable from debilitating to basically being normal- cardiac wise. I see a cardiologist on Fri for a consult re: autonomic issues and hoping he can advise me how to proceed.

Have you ever specifically looked to see if your pulse pressure drops at all when you stand? It's the difference between the systolic and diastolic values, but most doctors don't even know it exists. Yet it seems to be a somewhat common problem for us.

@Valentijn I actually have not done this and I know both you and SOC mentioned this before. I think you said that the number should be at least a 25 point difference? Is that correct or is my memory failing me (which is very possible!)
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I wish I knew why some people can add foods back and some can't. The first naturopath I saw in 1990-2 told me I could re-introduce foods I was intolerant to but the integrative doctor I saw recently strongly recommended I stay away from these. Maybe that protocal is changing. Or maybe my dr just knew that about me.

@xchocoholic I have no idea what my naturopath is going to advise but one thing for sure is that I will remain gluten free for the rest of my life due to Hashimoto's. I was told by 3-4 different doctors that the gluten molecule mimics something in the thyroid so the antibodies think it is attacking the gluten but are really attacking the thyroid. That is my non-scientific explanation and I'm sure someone else could explain it much better than I just did!

I am hoping though to be able to re-introduce dairy, eggs, sugar, soy, yeast, corn and the rest of the banned foods back into my life at some point but if my ND says not yet, I am going to strictly follow her advise b/c it has greatly healed my stomach issues and I don't want to do anything stupid!
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
@Valentijn I actually have not done this and I know both you and SOC mentioned this before. I think you said that the number should be at least a 25 point difference? Is that correct or is my memory failing me (which is very possible!)

My autonomic doc said that any pulse pressure 18 or lower was diagnostic for dysautonomia.

But it is not "normal" to have one of 19 or 20! Mine went down to 8 on a TTT.

Sushi
 
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Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@zzz

There are some studies that show that Florinef is somewhat helpful in increasing blood volume, and there are others that show that it makes no difference. It's one of those drugs that theoretically should work a lot more than it actually does. The ME specialists I've heard speak on the subject have said that it's not useful for the low blood volume that accompanies ME. I had my blood plasma volume measured back in 2000, and it was 25% below the predicted value, which is low even by ME standards. My doctor back then said to me, "No wonder you're tired!" and put me on Florinef. I was able to tolerate it for a couple of weeks, but it made no improvement at all. Then I lost my tolerance to it, and had to come off it. I was no worse when I came off it.

That is interesting and I was wondering how you officially had your blood plasma level measured? Is that a common test or pretty rare?

If you're not seeing results from the Florinef, you might want to talk to your doctor about whether or not to continue it. Florinef also depletes magnesium and potassium, which is exactly the opposite of what you want to do for both ME and POTS. A magnesium deficiency can cause both tachycardia and shortness of breath; I've experienced this myself. So I don't think your experience was a coincidence.

I am going to talk to my cardiologist & endocrinologist as both wanted me to take Florinef. My tachycardia was at it's worst for over a year before I ever took Florinef so I know that the depletion of Magnesium & Potassium from Florinef was not the cause for me. It is actually better right now although I cannot explain why. I am hoping it is due to Famvir working some kind of magic on my system (b/c I am off the beta blocker and only taking 1/4 Florinef.) I do take a lot of electrolytes though.

Fortunately, I had seen this coming, and had ordered a nebulizer and some magnesium. When I got his letter, I started using the nebulizer, and got immediate relief. Magnesium has a very long tissue half life (40 to 80 days), which is why it can take up to a year for the extra magnesium to fully take effect. Over the first three months of the nebulizer use, all my cardio-pulmonary symptoms disappeared. I felt better in other ways as well, such as getting much better sleep. My cardio-pulmonary symptoms have not returned.

Wow, that is awesome that your cardio-pulmonary symptoms have not returned! How does someone get magnesium for a nebulizer? Is this a prescription? I have no idea if this is something that could benefit me or even who to ask? I guess maybe my ND but she has never mentioned it.

Also, if you take high-dose magnesium, it's important to take a potassium supplement too.

Historically I do not do well with a high-dose of anything and need to start off super low on anything new and build up.

Dr. Goldstein recommended against TTTs for the same reason your cardiologist did. He thought it was quite straightforward to diagnose a patient without the stress and expense of a TTT. Of course, this goes for skilled doctors. For those doctors who have no idea of what's going on, a TTT may be necessary. Luckily, your cardiologist is not one of those doctors.

Thanks and I am not planning to do a TTT unless it would really add a piece of new information to the equation. Otherwise, I am not going to put myself through that.

Now THAT's low blood pressure. I know at one point I was down to 86/69 (standing), and I didn't feel too good myself. Although my numbers were slightly higher than yours, my pulse pressure (which Valentijn mentioned) was quite low, which means my blood was barely moving. (Not that there was that much of it to move in the first place.) I felt quite dizzy and had to lie down, but I didn't go to the extremes you did.

Just wanted to clarify that the only time I had that really low pressure was the one day I tried the CCB (Diltiazem.) Otherwise my BP stays in the 90's over 60's range and sometime even in the low 100's over 70's range.
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
@Valentijn I actually have not done this and I know both you and SOC mentioned this before. I think you said that the number should be at least a 25 point difference? Is that correct or is my memory failing me (which is very possible!)
The small amount of medical literature on the subject seems to all agree that 25 and under is quite abnormal and if it results from sudden blood loss (such as in a car accident) it's a medical emergency.

Based on personal experience 40-50 feels great, 35-40 feels okay, 30-35 feels a bit cruddy, 25-30 is yucky, and under 25 is quite crappy. Under 20 or so pulse pressure, my pulse is usually undetectable consistently enough to get a BP reading. Maybe I should make a pulse pressure scale! :rofl:
 

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
@zzz
That is interesting and I was wondering how you officially had your blood plasma level measured? Is that a common test or pretty rare?

It's somewhat rare, due to the price (about $2000 when I had it done). For this reason, I've heard ME/CFS doctors say (and I don't recall which ones), "Don't bother getting your blood volume tested - just assume it's low." But it seems that although that's usually the case, it may not always be. The best sign is that if you're thirsty a lot or get dehydrated easily, you most likely have low blood volume. Also, the incidence of low blood volume (either low plasma or low red blood cell count) is more than twice as high in people with severe CFS compared to people non-severe CFS, as documented by this study (which used the Fukuda criteria).

The test is done in the Department of Nuclear Medicine; any hospital with such a department (i.e., almost all of them, at least here in the U.S.) should be able to do such a test. A fixed amount of blood is withdrawn from your arm, a small amount of the short-lived radioactive isotope chromium-51 is mixed in with the blood, and then the blood is reinjected into your arm. Then you wait about four hours, and a blood sample is withdrawn. By seeing how much the chromium-51 has been diluted, it is possible to calculate the total body blood volume, both plasma and red blood cells.

When the calculations are done, your weight is taken into account, as it affects how your circulatory system is laid out; not all parts of the body get equal amounts of blood. A more precise calculation can be made if your height is also taken into account, as this then determines the body shape and resulting blood distribution more accurately.

I mentioned that when I had my blood volume tested in 2000, the results were 25% below expected for the plasma volume. Both height and weight were used in computing this number; this was in Boston. In 2003, I had this test repeated here in Oregon, but only weight was used in the calculation, so the result was given as a range instead of a single number. Fortunately, the raw data was also present, so I was able to use the formula based on height and weight to get a more exact figure. The figure I got the second time was 30% below expected value for the plasma volume. There's some margin of error in these numbers, but it's not very great when you use both height and weight.
I am going to talk to my cardiologist & endocrinologist as both wanted me to take Florinef.

That sounds like a good idea. I want to respond in more detail to @SOC's latest post on this subject, but that will have to wait until tomorrow. Last night, I got something caught in my contact lens, so I took it out, rinsed it in the hydrogen peroxide cleaning solution (which I somehow thought was saline), and put it back in my eye.

Oops.

One of the worst things about doing something like that is that your eye reflexively clamps shut, so you can't get the lens out or flush the eye. I eventually managed to do both, but boy, did that hurt. It wrecked my sleep and I'm still pretty traumatized today; the pain should go away by tomorrow, and my vision is unimpaired. But I'm wiped out more than usual.
Wow, that is awesome that your cardio-pulmonary symptoms have not returned!

Yes, very nice indeed, although mine weren't as severe as yours. Nevertheless, it's really nice not to be gasping for breath all the time.

Because the heart beats all the time, it needs twice as much magnesium as any other muscle. It also needs a lot of energy, which is why fully half of the heart muscle cells are mitochondria.
How does someone get magnesium for a nebulizer?
It's actually very easy. You can get it on Amazon.com (of course). What you're buying is actually Epsom salts - basically the same thing you use for a bath. Epsom salts are actually nothing more than magnesium sulfate, which is exactly the form of magnesium you want for a nebulizer (or for injection). Just be sure to get some that's USP Pharmaceutical Grade, as that's the only kind that's certified safe for ingesting. I got the Epsom salts sold by the San Francisco Salt Company. These are packaged for the bath; you can figure that each pound of salts will last at least a year if you use it with the nebulizer. That's less than a penny per treatment.

As for the nebulizer, I got a nice little Omron model at ADWDiabetes.com. Surprisingly, it's only $23.

Then you need to know how to actually put this all together and use it. Fortunately, Dr. Sarah Myhill has put together the comprehensive guides Magnesium by injection and Magnesium by nebuliser for all of us DIY folks. The nebulizer comes with extremely elaborate cleaning instructions, but these are designed for clinic use, and aren't really necessary for standard home use. Basically, you just have to clean all parts of the nebulizer kit thoroughly after each use.
Is this a prescription?

No prescription is needed for either item.
I have no idea if this is something that could benefit me or even who to ask?
I was already taking a couple of magnesium supplements, and yet this made a huge difference. There are various magnesium tests you can do, but they don't really tell you what effect this will have on you. As this is extremely safe, Dr. Myhill tries the injection (or, more recently, the nebulizer) on all her patients, and the vast majority of them respond positively. It was her emphasis on this type of supplement that got me to try it; before I read her advice, I had no idea that I needed this type of supplementation. A full 80% of healthy Americans are deficient in magnesium; what do you think that number is among us? It's also very possible that we need more magnesium than healthy people to compensate for some of our various metabolic problems. If you follow the directions, you can't OD on the magnesium; as long as your kidneys are healthy, you'll just flush out any magnesium that you don't need.
I guess maybe my ND but she has never mentioned it.

Generally, most doctors know about magnesium by injection (both IM and IV), but very few know about magnesium by nebulizer. My ND didn't know about it.

High dose magnesium is also very good for curing asthma symptoms; it allowed me to completely get off heavy doses of Flovent, an expensive steroid inhaler.
Historically I do not do well with a high-dose of anything and need to start off super low on anything new and build up.

I'm that way too. For the magnesium, you might want to try starting off with half the recommended dose once a week, and gradually build up to the full dose daily. I started off with the full dose once a week and was fine. You would also want to do this right before bed, as it can make you rather sleepy.

If you find you're sleeping more than usual, or more tired than usual the next day, just back off the dose a bit temporarily. You should be able to raise it again after a while - maybe a week or so.

More tomorrow...
 

zzz

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I just saw this post on Cort Johnson's site today. It contains Dr. Cheney's current treatment protocol. Of particular interest here is the section on magnesium:
Dr. Cheney has found that his ME/CFS patients are universally depleted in intracellular magnesium. Because the magnesium depletions are intracellular the depletions are not reflected in blood serum tests. He believes low intracellular magnesium contributes to poor sleep and increased pain and anxiety. It also increases ‘cardiac irritability’ and causes irregular heart rates and cardiac output. Magnesium is important in hundreds of enzymatic reactions that occur in the body.



Magnesium pills, however, will not work. Injectable magnesium partially corrects the intracellular magnesium deficiency, but only for up to 4-6 hours maximum. Magnesium cream (by Our Kids or Kirkman Labs) or SL magnesium spray will work but for shorter periods.

He believes injectable (subcutaneous) magnesium therapy is an essential part of treating any CFS patient. Magnesium cream and spray can be substituted for those not able or willing to self-inject.
He recommends 0.1 to 0.2 cc of each mixed together injected subcutaneously once or twice daily or even up to 4 times per day. Taurine at 50 mg/cc reduces the pain of the magnesium shot and prolongs the effect of magnesium.

Some patients prefer magnesium chloride at 200 mg/cc (which can be more sedating) but most prefer magnesium sulfate at 500 mg/cc. The volumes used are the same (0.1 to 0.2 cc). Some patients are not able to tolerate sulfate because sulfate resembles oxygen and just as CFS patients are intolerant of oxygen, some patients are intolerant of sulfate. Inject 0.1 cc Mg with 0.1cc Taurine 2x a day
.

Contrast this with his older protocol, quoted above:
Many patients benefit from magnesium injections, which are virtually painless with the addition of taurine. The Magnesium used by most is Magnesium Sulfate—standard 50% solution—1/2 cc drawn into the syringe first, followed by 1 1/2 cc's of Taurine. The Taurine is compounded at 50 mg/cc. The taurine makes the injection virtually painless and the ratio eliminates the hard knots many are familiar with. The injection is intramuscular, given in upper, outer quadrant of either buttock. Both require scripts from a doctor.

So the total dosage remains about the same, but he's splitting it up throughout the day. He does not use magnesium by nebulizer; using a nebulizer multiple times per day starts to be very time consuming anyway.

I have found that the neuro-cognitive effects of high dose magnesium sometimes don't last a full 24 hours, but that the cardio-pulmonary effects do, which is why I no longer get those symptoms, even though I do just one nebulizer session per day. I find the single session is very good as it's also strong enough to give me a good night's sleep. The cream or spray also work, but as Dr. Cheney mentions, they work for shorter periods than the injection (or the nebulizer).

@Gingergrrl, I think one of the most important parts of this piece is the first sentence. You had said,
I have no idea if this is something that could benefit me or even who to ask?

So the first line seems to answer this:
Dr. Cheney has found that his ME/CFS patients are universally depleted in intracellular magnesium.

This is what Dr. Myhill has found as well.

The section on cardiac benefits would also seem to be very applicable.

Another thing I have found reported, and have experienced myself as well, is that people with multiple chemical sensitivities or multiple drug sensitivities are often reported to have low magnesium pools, and magnesium is known to lower NMDA receptor sensitivity. (Technically, magnesium is an NMDA antagonist.) A lower NMDA sensitivity means fewer inappropriate reactions to stimuli. I have already noticed that for one important drug that I take, all the negative side effects have disappeared since I started my current magnesium regimen.

There are three contraindications for this type of regimen: 1) If you have poor kidney function, you may not be able to excrete magnesium fast enough, and toxic levels could build up in your system. This is fairly rare; you've probably had kidney function tests done somewhere along the way, and if they were abnormal, you would know. Otherwise, it's simply enough to get a blood test (creatinine is the most common here). 2) If you have heart block, you should not take high levels of magnesium. Your cardiologist has tested your heart, and if you had heart block, I would think she would have told you, but it's safest to ask. 3) If you have a reaction to sulfates, this treatment should not be used. This is rare. If you've ever taken a supplement that contains some kind of sulfate, then if you didn't react to it, you're fine here. If not, you could always just dissolve a few crystals of the Epsom salts in a drink and see if you have any reaction. Any reaction to an oral dose like that would be very mild. (Magnesium tastes bad, however.)

Although heart block is contraindicative for this regimen, magnesium tends to be helpful for many other heart conditions, as I have experienced, and as Dr. Cheney reports. Based on my symptoms, it appears that I was suffering from cardiomyopathy, which is extremely common in ME. I recently read some articles in some anesthesia journals talking about how safe magnesium was for the heart, and for this reason, it would make an excellent IV anesthetic. (Don't try this at home, though! :lol: )