Getting to the Root of the issue - Dorsal Root Ganglionitis

[justy]

A while ago I learned about deep dorsal ganglionitis whilst watching the dvd Voices in the shadows. It got me thinking, as I had inflammation in certain areas of my skull and spine which seemed to feel lilke it spread from those areas, around my body.
I booked myself in with a chiro/mctimony person, had three sessions over six weeks. The inflammation and pain went. It hasnt happened since.
He realigned my spine, it wasnt out much, just slightly.

This got me thinking was it my misalignment from the spine causing pressure on the nerves which caused the inflammation, or was it the inflammation of the nerves causing individual parts of my spine to be moved slightly.

I had a head injury a few years ago, hit back of head on stone track from falling off pony. A lot of compression and problems undiagnosd for 18 months.
I also had the polio drops and general vaccs.
I'm 57.

I'm not writing this to ask for an answer, just thought it may be of interest and adding to the discussion with the ganglionitis connection.

SunnyInside

Slightly off topic - have also seen a McTimony Chiro with some good improvements shown (although still not recovered)
Justy x

 

[SunnyInside]

Nice one Justy, well done. Some Improvements are great. (I think recovery is a long way off, and better quality of life is so important.

What area's did your chiro/mctimony work on? Did/do you have the strange flooding/trickling feeling from your spine spreading out across your back and round your ribs before you went for the treatment(s)?

SunnyInside

 

[In Vitro Infidelium]

Similar spinal lesions were also found in animals injected with patient blood after the Adelaide atypical polio epidemic. Go figure. This was published in 1955. I think I recall the lesions were found in monkeys spines, but not in other animals.

The reports of DRG have frequently been confused with claims of evidence that supports M.E > E = encephalomyelitis. The dorsal root ganglions lie outside of the spine - http://virtual.yosemite.cc.ca.us/rdroual/images/Anatomy/spinal cord/new spinal cord.htm, being connected to the spinal cord by the dorsal roots. Whether this closeness to the spine is indicative of some aetiology involving the spinal cord is open to question but it's probably useful to make the distinction between 'spine' - the whole structure of skeleton and nerves - and spinal cord, when discussing these areas of the body.

DRG is associated with a wide range of neuropathies, including diabetic neuropathy http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11872686 (link out to full text) . Identification of DRG on autopsy may be indicative of a range of known but undiagnosed conditions - and while that is very significant ! DRG may not be indicative of a distinct M.E/CFS aetiology.

IVI

 

[alex3619]

IVI, I have already clarified this issue. I even agree with your conclusion: "DRG may not be indicative of a distinct M.E/CFS aetiology." Its also possible its fully causal, and a lot of possible positions in between. Its not proof, its a clue.

Dorsal root ganglions, so far as I am aware, are part of a structure that goes from the body external to the spine to the grey matter in the spinal chord, and vice versa for ventral root ganglions. My anatomy could be off, I haven't studied it for over a decade but just because a dorsal root is affected does not mean damage does not exist elsewhere on that path, only that it has not so far been detected. Such damage would alter the way the brain senses the body, resulting in incorrect brain signals to regulate body function. One thing I would want to know though is why dorsal roots and not ventral roots? They have different functions, and are bundles of different nerve types. Why is this important? Why is there any difference?

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?hl=...103&start=0&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:0,i:137

 

[Marco]

DRG is associated with a wide range of neuropathies, including diabetic neuropathy http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11872686 (link out to full text) . Identification of DRG on autopsy may be indicative of a range of known but undiagnosed conditions - and while that is very significant ! DRG may not be indicative of a distinct M.E/CFS aetiology.

IVI

I'm very glad you raised this in the context of the recent thread discussing the finding of small fibre neuropathy in fibromyalgia patients.

A 'distinct ME/CFS aetiology' looks less and less likely to me.

 

[natasa778]

One of the questions that always has to be asked about these things is whether ganglionitis is a cause of ME, a consequence of ME (complication) or associated with ME due to some underlying process that predisposes to both. The science still can't say. What cannot be disputed though is this is an important clue. An unusual result like this gives a clue to underlying pathology.

Could some clues come from comparing these findings from similar findings in other illnesses, where more is known about patholog, like post-polio etc. I wonder if the dorsal root nerves express receptors that make them permissive to certain viruses, that are not expressed on ventral root ganglions?


btw Ataxic sensory neuropathy and dorsal root ganglionitis associated with Sjögren's syndrome

 

[Enid]

Definately the longest silence I met from my Neurologist as having ruled out MS pondered Polio (lots of questions about how and when I received the jab or whatever).

 

[natasa778]

in addition to Sjorgen one above, see also:

Dorsal root ganglia may be reservoirs of viral infection in multiple sclerosis


Degenerative and inflammatory lesions in sympathetic ganglia: further morphological evidence for an autonomic neuropathy in AIDS

... This study provides further morphological support for the autonomic dysfunction in association with HIV infection. As for the mechanism of this dysfunction, it has been postulated a direct infection, the virus entering the ganglia through macrophages and acting as a reservoir for HIV, and an autoimmune pathogenesis. Since HIV antigens were not detected in 50% of the cases in this and in a previous study, despite the existence of morphological lesions, it is possible that, as in HIV-related sensory-motor peripheral neuropathies, an autoimmune mechanism may also play a role in the development of the autonomic lesions.

also this one
... Sensory ganglia contained more gp41 HIV-1 antigen than sympathetic ganglia. There was no clear correlation between detection of HIV-1 antigens in ganglia and in the CNS. Detection of HIV-1 antigens in ganglia was more common in cases of HIV-1 infection that had progressed to clinical AIDS by the time of death (71%) than in those that had not done so (40%). It is concluded that there is commonly a mild ganglionitis which is asymptomatic in the absence of detailed clinical testing and frequently associated with local presence of HIV-1 antigens in sensory and sympathetic ganglia in AIDS.


Interesting that someone mentioned diabetes above, since that one is also suspected to be autoimmune diseases with a viral trigger ...

 

[justy]

Nice one Justy, well done. Some Improvements are great. (I think recovery is a long way off, and better quality of life is so important.

What area's did your chiro/mctimony work on? Did/do you have the strange flooding/trickling feeling from your spine spreading out across your back and round your ribs before you went for the treatment(s)?

SunnyInside

will pm you to avoid going off topic.

 

[Firestormm]

Nice graphic

 

[lansbergen]

but just because a dorsal root is affected does not mean damage does not exist elsewhere on that path, only that it has not so far been detected.

In my case there was a big fight going on in the sympathic cord for years. Horrible pain. Now it is over. There is still some futher outwards. One spot is in my hip/buttock. When it is activated my leg and foot hurt and I loose muscle strength and control of leg. If I rub in the spot with Benzydaminehydrochloride creme symptoms lessen.

Some cranial nerves in face are also still a problem.

I am pretty sure whatever the infection is it was cleared from the brain first , then from the spinal cord but lingered in the perifere.

 

[In Vitro Infidelium]

IVI, I have already clarified this issue. I even agree with your conclusion: "DRG may not be indicative of a distinct M.E/CFS aetiology." Its also possible its fully causal, and a lot of possible positions in between. Its not proof, its a clue.

I hadn't go as far as your second post - but a graphic makes understanding a lot easier.

Dorsal root ganglions, so far as I am aware, are part of a structure that goes from the body external to the spine to the grey matter in the spinal chord, and vice versa for ventral root ganglions. My anatomy could be off, I haven't studied it for over a decade but just because a dorsal root is affected does not mean damage does not exist elsewhere on that path, only that it has not so far been detected. Such damage would alter the way the brain senses the body, resulting in incorrect brain signals to regulate body function. One thing I would want to know though is why dorsal roots and not ventral roots? They have different functions, and are bundles of different nerve types. Why is this important? Why is there any difference?

There is not an equivalent 'ventral ganglion' - only a connective root. The traditional view is that the dorsal root and dorsal ganglion carry sensory input/output while the ventral root carries motor function input/output, the axons for motor function are located within the spinal column and hence no need for a ventral ganglion. I'm guessing this picture has been subject to substantial sophistication in recent years. Diabetic studies have found damage in both dorsal and ventral roots http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/51/3/819.long , whether there are studies showing comparable damage to the rostrocaudal and dorsoventral column axons I don't know but different chemical signalling and possibly very different imune system protection may mean that these axons are less vulnerable to damage than structures in the dorsal root ganglions.

IVI

 

[Firestormm]

I hadn't go as far as your second post - but a graphic makes understanding a lot easier.


There is not an equivalent 'ventral ganglion' - only a connective root. The traditional view is that the dorsal root and dorsal ganglion carry sensory input/output while the ventral root carries motor function input/output, the axons for motor function are located within the spinal column and hence no need for a ventral ganglion. I'm guessing this picture has been subject to substantial sophistication in recent years. Diabetic studies have found damage in both dorsal and ventral roots http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/51/3/819.long , whether there are studies showing comparable damage to the rostrocaudal and dorsoventral column axons I don't know but different chemical signalling and possibly very different imune system protection may mean that these axons are less vulnerable to damage than structures in the dorsal root ganglions.

IVI

'tis all Greek to me

 

[Ecoclimber]

The Light's conducted research in this particular area and it showed promised. This was written up in one of Cort's articles awhile back.

http://phoenixrising.me/archives/5802

Eco

 

[barbc56]

'tis all Greek to me

Είναι όλα Ελληνικά μου.
Barb C:>)

 

[Firestormm]

Figure 2.4 on page 13 of the following features the DRG. Apparently, the document is a useful reference tool. Not that I've read it yet of course: Introduction to the Peripheral Nervous System: http://www.us.elsevierhealth.com/media/us/samplechapters/9781416031659/9781416031659.pdf

 

[biophile]

MYALGIC ENCEPHALOMYELITIS : A Baffling Syndrome With a Tragic Aftermath. By A. Melvin Ramsay M.D., Hon Consultant Physician, Infectious Diseases Dept, Royal Free Hospital. [Published 1986]

http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/ramsey.html

Written 26 years ago, this sentence reminded me of this thread: "herpes simplex and varicella-zoster remain in the tissues from the time of the initial invasion and can be isolated from nerve ganglia post-mortem"

 

[Firestormm]

MYALGIC ENCEPHALOMYELITIS : A Baffling Syndrome With a Tragic Aftermath. By A. Melvin Ramsay M.D., Hon Consultant Physician, Infectious Diseases Dept, Royal Free Hospital. [Published 1986]

http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/ramsey.html

Written 26 years ago, this sentence reminded me of this thread: "herpes simplex and varicella-zoster remain in the tissues from the time of the initial invasion and can be isolated from nerve ganglia post-mortem"

Thanks Bio. Fairly sure they aren't the only possible infections that can lead to DRG but whether all can be 'isolated' is not something I am sure of...

More study needed. Along with more dead bodies

 

[maryb]

[quote="lansbergen, post: 310867, member: 557"
I am pretty sure whatever the infection is it was cleared from the brain first , then from the spinal cord but lingered in the perifere.[/quote]

Lansbergen can I ask you how you cleared the infection?

This work makes so much sense to me, and of course the link to the herpes viruses that so many ME patients feel are implicated somewhere is core to it.

 

[lansbergen]

Lansbergen can I ask you how you cleared the infection?

This work makes so much sense to me, and of course the link to the herpes viruses that so many ME patients feel are implicated somewhere is core to it.

Immunemodulator levamisole.

I do not think herpes was a big problem in my case. Anyway herpes will be silenced if the immunesystem can do its job properly.