Fredd...Rich...Yasko...Methylation...? Help!

[Soundthealarm21]

Wow!

I had a VERY severe reaction to gabapentin. I literally was tranquilized for a solid 24 hours after taking 400 mg over a 24 hour period. It worked great for my anxiety for the day I was on it though haha, but not being able to move for a day isn't worth the trade off in my opinion!

If you react the heavily to medicine I would take even less than 200 mcg of each the folate and B12. I know some people such as @caledonia have had to take doses as small as 1/256 of the tablet (which ever methylation supplement). She has got good ideas on how to take small amounts.

 

[Soundthealarm21]

Once again, shows how little I know about histamine issues!

Potassium needs will change. It's one of those go with how your body feels kind of thing. If your muscles are really aching and your heart is beating hard then you probably need a little more. The confusing part is that symptoms of too much potassium are the same as too little potassium. But I think it's safe to assume if you're starting a methylation protocol it will be low potassium.

I think that carrot juice is also a good source of potassium.

 

[ahmo]

@EMilo, I've had excellent results w/ taking a sublingual B12 when I've felt the over-excitedness of mFolate, avoiding taking niacin. I'm not avoiding niacin for its histamines, didn't know of that connection. But I still need a lot of K+, more when I've increased my folate dose.

Yes, look up Caledonia's "Start Low, Go Slow" doc linked in her signature. You should probably be starting with curmb-sized doses, based on your sensitivities. Or, with your liquid solution, you might want to put a drop in water, then sip a small amount, just for starters.

I'm so happy to share any research that might help someone else. As you know, it's like each of us is running a marathon. Daily!

 

[Critterina]

I've been wondering about this, thank you! I can't stand coconut water, so I would love a different option for potassium. Do you happen to know a good starting dose for potassium? Re: niacin, I am scared of taking it because I have histamine intolerance. I don't know if anyone knows about a different option...? Again, thank you.

Elizabeth,

I take 2 mg of methylfolate with 5 mg of methylB12 without a problem. I started with one mg methylfolate, but either works. But I'm not sensitive the way you are.

I am extremely histamine intolerant, and can handle niacinimide both in Thorne's Basic B Complex on an empty stomach, and 20 mg sublingual. I don't think it should be a concern for you because of HI.

I would take a clue from "I can't stand coconut water" - that maybe you don't need the potassium right now. For me, needing the potassium changes it from "this stuff tastes like dirt" to "this stuff tastes like be best stuff on earth". There are potassium pill cheap, but you don't get the "should I be putting this stuff in my body" feedback.

If you do use potassium, know what you're using it for and what your symptoms are. For me, tachycardia and hypertension result from low potassium. I don't have a blood pressure cuff, but I can take my pulse. Write down your resting pulse (or equivalent indicator). Take some potassium, from whatever source (there's about 600 mg in coconut water) and write it down, too. An hour later, do the same. I could see what it took to get my pulse back into a normal range from where it was.

So, that's my two cents worth. You'll get lots of help here, but think through it yourself before taking action. What works for some of us doesn't work, and can actually hurt, others of us.

If you're taking methylfolate and methylB12 separately, take the folate in the morning, as it tends to increase energy, and the B12 later in the day, because it tends to do the opposite. At least for me, and I've heard for others. If I wait to take the folate until later, I may not sleep well.

Here's an idea: You can reformulate the compounded stuff yourself. Put a drop in two tablespoons of water, mix (you may have to shake vigorously to emulsify if it's an oily mixture) and take a fraction (depending on how much you want) to hold in your mouth, swishing for good contact. Then swallow, on an empty stomach. You'll probably get less than the fractional dose you intend, as some will be wasted by stomach acid or left in the container.

 

[Sea]

I've been wondering about this, thank you! I can't stand coconut water, so I would love a different option for potassium. Do you happen to know a good starting dose for potassium? Re: niacin, I am scared of taking it because I have histamine intolerance. I don't know if anyone knows about a different option...? Again, thank you.

I use the NOW brand potassium gluconate powder (I also get it from iherb). One "dose" is half a teaspoon in a glass of water and is the equivalent of the amount of potassium in about half a banana, but much more quickly absorbed and usable than potassium in food.

 

[heyitisjustin]

I use the NOW brand potassium gluconate powder (I also get it from iherb). One "dose" is half a teaspoon in a glass of water and is the equivalent of the amount of potassium in about half a banana, but much more quickly absorbed and usable than potassium in food.

I believe that dandelion root is also high in potassium. But like bananas its probably hard to get an exact dose

 

[Johnmac]

It's best to take the B12 first followed by folate (or at the same time, just not the folate hours before the B12) to avoid methyl trapping.

From memory, Freddd says the opposite - folate first.

Can anyone provide some clarity on this one?

 

[ahmo]

This is from the summary in Guide to FP:

Deadlock Quartet: Methylfolate MethylB12 AdenoB12 L-Carnitine Fumarate

Getting Started:

1) L-methylfolate, 200mcg 4 times a day, total 800mcg; Taken away from Potassium.

30-60 minutes after Mfolate:

2) Methyl B12 1mg + Adeno B12 a crumb from 10mg tablet, in pouch of gum line, so dissolves slowly over 1+hour

3) Potassium: Start-up and each dosage increase will usually lead to symptoms including nausea, itching, heart palpitations, weakness, muscle spasms or cramps. Typically these symptoms will occur by the 3rd day after starting folate/B12. Try approx 300 mg K+ every 2 hours until deficiency symptoms relieved. You will likely need at least this much the following day. Symptoms may shift within hours.

High doses of B1,2,3 can make this need for Potassium insatiable. 25mg or less of B complex/day, in a divided dose, is preferable.

4) L-Carnitine Fumarate (for a smaller number of people, Acetyl-L Carnitine is effective) Dr’sBest855mgcapsuleyields500mgcarnitine. 1capsule/day.

If you have anxiety and tend to over emphasize fears then you might consider microtitrating with the Jarrow Liquid carnitine (freebase). With that you might start at 150mcg a day whereas with the LCF maybe 64mg to start with (1/8 capsule)

This is from aturtles summary, FP link 3 in my sig.

Some short Freddd posts from Dec - Feb 2014 that cover a lot of fundamentals about how he sees methylation work. I recommend these to everyone interested in his approach.

• Step-wise start-up made simple, overview, "penetrative dose" comments
• Start-up experiences, MeCbl, AdoCbl, Potassium. About Low & Slow, "overmethylation", etc
• Freddd's experience with Serum->BBB->CSF -- nerve healing. Central Nervous system healing.
• Metafolin without B12 not a good idea -- "Folate can start reactions going that have to have B12 the warned against onset of Sub Acute Combined Degeneration (demyelination from methyltrap)."
• B12 without metafolin -- "I really don't know" -- one of the reasons that I respect Freddd's research is that he's willing to say this.

And this is from sheclimber's FP summary, #1 in my sig:

PROTOCOL OUTLINE

1. Remove all supplements containing Hydroxocobalamin, Cyanocobalamin, Folic Acid, Glutathione, and Glutathione precursors such as NAC, Glutamine, and undenatured whey.
   
   
2. Supplement with Basic Cofactors for about a week.
   
   
3. Titrate B12s and adjust Methylfolate and Potassium (and possibly B1, B2, and B3) as needed to
   
   eliminate deficiency symptoms.
   
   
4. Titrate L-Carnitine Fumurate (LCF) to effectiveness.
   
   
5. Titrate SAM-e.
   
   
6. Titrate Trimethylglycine (TMG, aka Betaine). If it does nothing, discontinue.
   

 

[Johnmac]

Thanks @ahmo.

I notice if one of those lists of freddd's that he has (after the DQs & basics):

6. SAM-e is titrated

7. TMG is titrated. If it does nothing, discontinue

8. Biotin is titrated

I had never noticed this, & have never used the above. Are they still part of the protocol?

 

[ahmo]

@Johnmac That's why I posted all 3 versions. I don't recall Fred talking about TMG or biotin in any case but someone asking for advice about. But not as part of the protocol. I do know SAMe comes in somewhere later, if necessary, but I've never used it, so am unclear about it. I have very poor recall, so once something worked, or didn't work, for me, the supporting info pretty much evaporates.

 

[Johnmac]

Ta @ahmo.

Tho it looks to be part of the protocol in that Freddd post. Maybe an old one.

I'm on biotin (it's part of the pyroluria treatment), & haven't noticed any effect - on pyroluria or anything else. Probably won't re-purchase, as the only pyroluria supps that appear to do anything are zinc & B6. (I don't even need P5P, it seems.)

I'll try SAMe soon - very cautiously, as it can send you psycho, they say.

 

[ahmo]

I used biotin all along, until at some point I only needed the small abount in my B Comp.

 

[heyitisjustin]

From memory, Freddd says the opposite - folate first.

Can anyone provide some clarity on this one?

From http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...tocol-penetrative-dose-questions.34260/page-2

Freddd said: ↑
The MeCbl has to come before the methylfolate to protect your neurology.
What is the neurological risk that this protects from? Can you elaborate?

Hi SwanRonson,

If l-methylfolate (and the worning goes back to folic acid and why the doses were set to 400mcg with 800mcg as the maximum so as to prevent people from correcting their blood errors with folate only and not take the B12 for the nervous system. Folate can start reactions going that have to have B12 the warned against onset of Sub Acute Combined Degeneration (demyelination from methyltrap).

ahmo I am confused... He seems to be saying both things.

 

[ahmo]

ahmo I am confused... He seems to be saying both things.

For me, this is a flag to revise my wording, in the first set of instructions I posted. My problem is that my focus, attention, concentration are compromised, as with many/most of us. The part of the compilation A Guide to FP that gave me the most trouble, was summarizing that very first paragraph. Because I, too, searched and searched.

I started B12 alone at some point, I believe, and had a bad reaction. Iwould have to scour old notes to verify this. But in that case, I took it alone for a month. My current understanding would advise start MB12 for a day or 2, then add Mfolate, and then, if you have no negative reactions, start increasing doses.

 

[heyitisjustin]

For me, this is a flag to revise my wording, in the first set of instructions I posted. My problem is that my focus, attention, concentration are compromised, as with many/most of us. The part of the compilation A Guide to FP that gave me the most trouble, was summarizing that very first paragraph. Because I, too, searched and searched.

I started B12 alone at some point, I believe, and had a bad reaction. Iwould have to scour old notes to verify this. But in that case, I took it alone for a month. My current understanding would advise start MB12 for a day or 2, then add Mfolate, and then, if you have no negative reactions, start increasing doses.

Does it matter which one you take first during the day?
I thought during the day you were supposed to take folate first or both at the same time.

Thinking about it, it looks like most people are taking several doses throughout the day so I am not sure how this would play out.

I am surprised taking doses past lunch this doesn't mess with peoples sleep. I seem to have a hard time sleeping when I take some of the methylation supps too late. I will have to experiment more with timing.

 

[ahmo]

When I took sublingual, I took B12 + folate AM, midday, and folate alone PM. Now, using transdermal, I take B12 + folate AM, folate only PM.

 

[surfbaby]

When I took sublingual, I took B12 + folate AM, midday, and folate alone PM. Now, using transdermal, I take B12 + folate AM, folate only PM.

Hi ahmo,
I am brand new to this forum and have had no forum experience for 10 years due to vision loss/sensitivity to computer screens from uveitis. It's difficult, but after surgery I can finally see well enough to look at the screen minimally, but don't know what I'm doing, so please excuse! I have gotten the most help from your posts, so hope you don't mind that I'm starting here. (I could not find the Write Something box on your profile page. If this post goes to the wrong place, maybe someone could tell me how to send you a post?)

History: Asthma since childhood, then triggering of CFS, fibromyalgia, and multiple chemical sensitivities after series of multiple accidents, injuries, and surgeries in the 80's. Got much better from nontraditional allergy shots from England called EPD but the FDA disallowed them into US in the mid-90's, and the new US version called LDA (formulated by my long-time environmental/allergy MD) never worked for me (mid-2000's). Meanwhile a protocol of high dose folic acid in conjunction with these shots caused a severe B12 deficiency that led to body-wide neuro damage.

Took daily injections of MB12 to try to stop the rapidly spreading neuro damage that could develop into subacute combined degeneration. The eye problems made it hard, but in 2004 I joined my only other forum called BrainTalk, and the member who helped me the most was a very intelligent, informed man named Fred! After rereading some old posts I am certain it was Freddd! Methylation never came up, but with Fred's help I got on sublinguals and some of the other items in his current protocol (no Methylfolate, but he may not have known about MF back then).

The obvious severe neuro damage got better, so I stupidly stopped taking MB12 several years later because of side effects, and I had to focus on dealing with worsening eye disease. Also intense fluctuating hormones from peri-menopause made it hard to know what was causing my symptoms. Then after dropping to under 90 lbs, I found out 3 years ago that I had high levels of arsenic from brown rice, one of the only foods I could tolerate with my IBS. Had to wait to start EDTA chelation IV's until I could gain some weight and get stronger.

Started EDTA very slowly April 2015 at half dose, but every time we did it too often or increased dose too fast, I felt like I was getting brain damage, tho IBS and some other symptoms improved. Finally stopped in Aug 2015 after total of 8 IV's when several people told me to try glutathione to heal my detox pathways before more chelation. After 3 weeks on low doses of S-acetyl glutathione, I couldn't handle the detox, so stopped it. However thankfully a google search on acetyl glutathione led me to Rich and this forum, which led me to Freddd's Protocol!

I started FP slowly 3 weeks ago, but was looking at older posts at first, so it took awhile to do it right. At first I mostly used the guide called Active B12 Therapy and Methylation FAQ (An Index to 'B-12 the Hidden Story'), until your posts eventually led me to your Guide to FP. Start up was a little rough, but not as bad as many other people. AdB12 has caused most side effects (tight chest, increased asthma, too speedy/hot) even starting at 1/4 of Country Life 3,000 mcg (waiting for Anabol order).

I had problems with it 10 years ago too. Trying 1,500 mcg twice a week for now, but can tolerate it only if I take it late at night when really tired! Otherwise I get unbearably speedy if I already have decent energy. Will try crumb of Anabol with MB12 when it arrives. The first time I added MF, I felt like something turned on. Several recurring muscle/joint pains came on at once, even a very old low back pain, but not nearly to the original intensity, and they all passed quickly.

When I increase MB12 and/or MF (not sure which one yet) too quickly, I feel some of those pains slightly coming on again, especially in my lower legs. Never experienced any muscle cramping or other noticeable low potassium symptoms. I have been taking a little potassium citrate anyway, and also eat wild salmon regularly that is high in potassium. I have a 10 MEQ potassium chloride RX on hand just in case.

I have had soft stools/borderline diarrhea daily, but that started before FP, and recurs due to IBS, but not usually for this long without some normal BM's in between, so could be from FP too. Angular chellitis flared up, but is now healing after 1 week on MF. I have a little more fatigue now (except for when I feel too speedy from AdB12, B-Complex, or LCF, which us even worse than the fatigue), but that's getting less intense and passing more quickly. Sometimes I feel really out of it and can't think straight, but other times my brain is working a lot better and my memory has definitely improved.

Currently taking: 1/2 Enzymatic Therapy 1 mg MB12 3x/day (1.5 mg total daily), 1/2 Country Life AdB12 2x/week until Anabol comes in next week (both dissolved 45+ min),1/2 Solgar 400 mcg MF 3x/day, (600 mcg total daily + 100 mcg MF in 1/4 Pure Encap B-Complex (still too strong for me, looking for alternative), 1/8 LCF (might try Acetyl but somewhat tolerating 1/8 LCF for now).

I hope you don't mind that I have several FP questions:

1. Is MF absorbed better with or without food? In the Protocol and Start up section of the Active B12 therapy and methylation FAQ, Freddd says "Methylfolate appears to be absorbed better without food but with food works ok." However in sheclimber's My Understanding of FP, in section 3c it says "Methylfolate is absorbed better with food, but is ok without." So complete opposite. Due to my eye issues, I can't scour the forums as much as I would like to see what updates or changes have come out since the latest revision of these guides, and they are both invaluable.

2. Do I take MF 30-60 minutes prior to MB12 as per your Guide to FP? There was conflicting information in sheclimber's guide at the end of Step 3 under Some Thoughts on MeB12 Timing and Dose. "Freddd: The MeB12 has to come before the methylfolate to protect your neurology.
So swallow the folate and putting the ENZY in your mouth at the same time will work well on both counts."

3. If taking the Anabol AdB12 crumb with each MB12 doesn't work for me, how much of the tablet (or estimated mcg) should I take per week to be in proportion to taking 1.5mg to 2 mg of MB12 per day?

4. It says that the Acetyl L-Carmitine works better for 10% of people. Do you have any idea what criteria applies to that 10%, like do have to have some special type of gene mutation? I was thinking of trying it, because I have a lot of brain issues, and I don't love the LCF. While I normally have some fatigue upon excessive exertion, I bounce back quicker than I used to, and my energy is fairly good at certain times of the day. Of course I would love to have energy like a normal person, but I have to take the AdB12 and LCF in minute amounts and/or late at night when I'm so tired they don't get me so revved up.

5. I keep reading about donut hole folate deficiency, but I don't really understand it. Can you explain a little?

Thanks so much for taking the time to read my post, and I really hope to hear from you soon! I also hope to connect with Freddd at some point, although it looks like he hasn't posted recently. Aloha!

 

[ahmo]

@surfbaby Sounds like you're really on top of this. congrats on getting yourself through some rough times.

Is MF absorbed better with or without food?

My impression is without. Well, that's especially borne out by my experience that taking it sublingually means I'm using 1/2 the amount I was when swallowing it.

Do I take MF 30-60 minutes prior to MB12 as per your Guide to FP?

Another flag for me to correct in my doc. I take mine at the same time.

If taking the Anabol AdB12 crumb with each MB12 doesn't work for me, how much of the tablet (or estimated mcg) should I take per week to be in proportion to taking 1.5mg to 2 mg of MB12 per day?

Fred's most recent comments re AdB12 were that he found it better absorbed when taken on a day without folate. I've been doing it this way for about a year. He suggested 30-50mg, I don't know how he came to those amounts. I take 40mg AdB12 once/week, 2 mg Mfolate/day and 2-2.5mg MB12. Starting off with crumbs is perfect. I cn't tell you much about AdB12, but can link you to an article if you want. It's working w/ ATP, rather than methylation.

It says that the Acetyl L-Carmitine works better for 10% of people. Do you have any idea what criteria applies to that 10%, like do have to have some special type of gene mutation?

No idea. It didn't work for me, along w/ at least one other form, but LCF clearly did.

I keep reading about donut hole folate deficiency, but I don't really understand it. Can you explain a little?

No, sorry, I don't have a handle on how to differentiate that from paradoxical folate deficiency. I looked a bit in my notes, can't go further at present. Here's a good post that might give you enough info.

 

[surfbaby]

I was ecstatic to hear back from you so quickly! Thank you for answering my questions and the link about folate deficiency. I would definitely also like the link to the article about AdB12 and ATP. Also could you send me a link to any of the comments Freddd made about taking the AdB12 on a day without folate? The AdB12 was the first thing I did in the Startup, so even without folate I had a bad reaction to it. A couple years ago I tried Life Extension ATP that had proprionyl-l-carnitine also, and it didn't do anything for me, but that might not mean anything.

Sorry I didn't realize my post was so long! I got a little carried away after not having anyone to talk to about this. Also for past few years I have been doing this neural retraining program (brain rewiring for healing CFS, etc.) where you're not supposed to talk about your symptoms (obviously not working as well as FP!), so it all came out like a floodgate. I will try to do shorter posts, as my eyes really suffered from it. I hope I can continue to post regularly going forward, but it's difficult because I'm not sure what I'm doing. Only one eye works, and it starts burning after staring at the screen, so it makes it difficult to figure things out. Do you mind if I ask you some questions about posting as well as FP? Sorry if I sound like such a dummy. I actually used to be really smart!

1. What was the significance of putting @surfbaby at the beginning of your post? If I put at @ahmo at the beginning of a post to you, what would that do? Why does a rectangle pop up with @ahmo in it when I just wrote that? I have used the @ on Instagram, but I don't really know everything it does. I used to be the "go to" computer person years ago before the eye thing happened to me, so after not being able to be on the computer regularly for so long, it's a bummer to be starting over. I am using an iPad so I don't know if that makes a difference, because I still can't find the Write Something box on your profile page.

2. How do I go about starting a new thread? I don't even know which forum we're on. Is it Treatment and Therapy or Symptoms? And do you have to choose one before you post a new thread? Also where do I go to look for new posts about FP?

3. If I wanted to post a message directly to you or some other member, is that even possible, or do you have to get permission or be followed or a follower first?

4. When you answered my questions, how were you able to insert a copy of my question (or just a portion of it ) right above your answer?

5. I just opened a new bottle of Enzymatic Therapy MB12 and realize it is much stronger and takes longer to dissolve than my previous bottle which I had around for awhile. So now I'm having symptoms at the 1/2 tablet 3x/day dose I was on with the old bottle. I have to go to the doctor and market tomorrow and won't be able to do that if I'm symptomatic, so do you have any suggestions on how to work around this? I don't want to go all the way back down to 1/4. I tried the chewing and swallowing towards the end, but that just gave me a sudden burst of feeling horrible. (I haven't quite figured out the brightening thing yet.) For now my plan is to take the smaller halves I cut (they're not all exactly the same size), or maybe spitting it out a little early?

6. I will go back to taking my MF and MB12 at the same time. Per your previous post above, is there a reason you take your PM dose of MF without the MB12? Are you still doing transdermal, if so what is the advantage, and does that mean some kind of patch? What brand of sublingual MF do you take, and what is the advantage? I'm such a newbie that's probably way beyond me, and I'm still trying to figure out whether to take MF/MB12 three or four times a day. I did 4X for a while but it was hard to fit that last one in. I read something about Freddd or someone else not feeling as well when they go more than 6 hours apart, but I can't remember where. Also I hope it's ok that I have been substituting the amount of MF in my B-complex for the equal amount in the Solgar, otherwise the extra gives me symptoms for now, but I do have to take the B-complex with food.

You really made my day, and I so much appreciate how kind you are to help people! I hope someday I can do the same.

 

[ahmo]

@surfbaby creates an alert for you, in the upper right corner of your page. Alerts = threads. The other prompt next to it is for your private messages, conversations. You can click on that tab, and then, at bottom of window, start new conversation'. There you input person's name. The other way to start a conversation/ private message/pm, is to click on someone's avatar. this then offers a series of choices, including profile page, and start a conversation.

The questions you're asking belong in the forum we're in, look beneath the title of the thread, and you'll see, in grey, "Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation'". At the top and bottom of each page there's the word forum, which takes you to the front page, w/ all forums listed. In each of the forums, you'll find a prompt to start a new thread.

There's a prompt at top of each page to watch thread, which means you'll get an alert when any new comments are added. If you don't go to the forum, or Mark All Forums Read in top tabs, then you won't get future messages.

Here's the link to AdB12 article. Sorry, this is all I can manage today, I've been out, will get back to you tomorrow.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile..._Synthases/links/0fcfd50912fdd0587a000000.pdfHypotheses in the Life Sciences Volume 2 Issue 2 pp 31-54

The Very Large Gorilla Sitting in the Room? Adenosylcobalamin is the Missing Link: its Radical and Tetrahydrobiopterin are the Principal in vivo Catalysts for Mammalian Nitric Oxide Synthases.