Folic Acid vs. Folinic Acid

[dannybex]

It was trial and error, trying this form, then that, then this, then going back to that...along with the various b12's, and various amounts of b12, folate. Finally, I re-read the study by Jill James on methylation issues in autistic kids, where she used folinic and TMG to correct/improve their methylation status -- I had never used TMG before. And since no adverse effects were reported in that group of kids, I figured I'd give it a good try. I did, and can tolerate them both very well. Night and day difference compared to 2011 and 2/3rds of 2012.

 

[Lotus97]

Priobiotics are tricky. If I recall correctly bacteria can create dozens of different folates, including methyl folate. Folinic acid is plant folate. Methyl folate is animal folate - the best source is possibly meat. Folic acid should be considered a drug not a vitamin. The vitamin for humans is 5 methyl tetrahydrofolate.

I found out from Rich that vegetables have both folinic acid and methylfolate. I assume most if not all foods have some combination of both kinds of folate. My guess to why Freddd can tolerate meat is because meat is very low in folate so it wouldn't have enough folinic acid to give him any problems.

 

[cph13]

Well that's interesting. In Feb. I took some MSM that same week I just for 1-3days. I was ill from Feb. to April, maybe the end of May. I am doing SMP/mixed I am doing marvelously and I am taking methyfolate daily, of course with my mcobalymin b12 (and all the co factors I just haven't gotten to the lcarn.fumerate and tmg yet. I am being very cautious).
Does Rich (RIP) mention that veggies are sprayed or treated with folic acid? I don't know why juicing would be such a problem for me causing extreme weakness, low mood, extreme lethargy, lack of desire, bowl issues. I was basically bed bound for 6 days and functioned at my job just one day a week for those months. I couldn't food shop NOTHING....Any takers on this question?

 

[Lotus97]

Well that's interesting. In Feb. I took some MSM that same week I just for 1-3days. I was ill from Feb. to April, maybe the end of May. I am doing SMP/mixed I am doing marvelously and I am taking methyfolate daily, of course with my mcobalymin b12 (and all the co factors I just haven't gotten to the lcarn.fumerate and tmg yet. I am being very cautious).
Does Rich (RIP) mention that veggies are sprayed or treated with folic acid? I don't know why juicing would be such a problem for me causing extreme weakness, low mood, extreme lethargy, lack of desire, bowl issues. I was basically bed bound for 6 days and functioned at my job just one day a week for those months. I couldn't food shop NOTHING....Any takers on this question?

I'm not sure why they'd cause a problem for you, but I can't imagine veggies sprayed with folic acid. For Freddd, folinic acid blocks methylfolate absorption, but Rich believes this is rare in the CFS/ME community. Maybe you have the same issue as Freddd, but you could test this out by taking folinic acid and see if it causes the same problems.
Hi, Freddd.

I find this puzzling. The main folates found in vegetables are 5L-methyl tetrahydrofolate and folinic acid, both of which are readily used in the bodies of most people. Folic acid does not occur naturally.

As I've suggested, I suspect that you have what appears to be a rare deficiency in the enzyme MTHFS (methenyltrahydrofolate synthetase) which is the enzyme that normally converts folinic acid to methenyltetrahydrofolate, from which it can normally be converted to other forms of folate, including 5L-methyltetrahydrofolate. I think that explains why your body is not able to use folinic acid, and in fact why it blocks your folate metabolism, as folinic acid is known to inhibit the SHMT reaction, which is the main reaction that converts THF to 5,10-methylene tetrahydrofolate, which in turn can be converted to 5L-methyltetrahydrofolate.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[cph13]

Hello Lo, Thank you, again! Perhaps this is not as rare as Rich (RIP) thought. I would now NEVER use folic acid...I don't need to know. Juicing is something I just don't need to do.I have come so far; testing with folic acid would be counterproductive for me "at this time". I am so NOT curious.
Be well Lo
Happy healing

 

[Lotus97]

Hello Lo, Thank you, again! Perhaps this is not as rare as Rich (RIP) thought. I would now NEVER use folic acid...I don't need to know. Juicing is something I just don't need to do.I have come so far; testing with folic acid would be counterproductive for me "at this time". I am so NOT curious.
Be well Lo
Happy healing

I was referring to testing with folinic acid, not folic acid. I can understand not wanting to try a test that might you feel bad, but personally I would want to know why the veggies were causing that reaction. The only way to know is by ruling out certain possibilities. Which vegetables were you using in your juice? Not all veggies are high in folate so that would give you an idea if that was what was causing the reaction. And there are other foods besides vegetables with natural folate such as whole grains, beans, and some nuts and seeds. I assume you don't eat any white bread/pasta because that does have folic acid added to it. Although folic acid doesn't block methylfolate for everyone, it's probably good to avoid that unless you feel like doing tests because there does seem to be evidence that folic acid does block methylfolate in some people. I've found that 1000 mcg of folic acid does not seem to block methylfolate for myself. Freddd has done extensive testing on himself with both folinic acid and folic acid, but how many other people here have done the same? Until this happens, I will trust Rich on this, but you could be one of the few unlucky ones Dr. Neil Nathan who applies Rich's methylation protocol (along with more standard treatments) to some of his CFS/Fibromyalgia patients says that 70% improve and 20% have nearly a full recovery. I'm not saying that a lot of the patients wouldn't also improve with Freddd's protocol instead, but I am saying that it doesn't seem like many had a problem with folinic acid which was used in the treatment.

 

[Lotus97]

Hello Lo, Thank you, again! Perhaps this is not as rare as Rich (RIP) thought. I would now NEVER use folic acid...I don't need to know. Juicing is something I just don't need to do.I have come so far; testing with folic acid would be counterproductive for me "at this time". I am so NOT curious.
Be well Lo
Happy healing

Hmmm, according to dbkita plant folate might act differently than supplemental folinic acid.
Folinic acid is a 5-formyl derivative of THF. The folates in vegetables are not folinic or folic acid (a fully oxidized synthetic folate, i.e. pteroylmonoglutamic acid). This is a notorious misconception in the research community. The folates in food are metabolites of THF packed within polyglutamates. In the intestinal lumen these polyglutmate dietary forms are broken down into monoglutamate variants which can then be converted to DHF and then THF by their respective enzymes. The DHFR enzyme is not present in humans for the synthetic folic acid it is present for processing dietary folates. Folinic acid is readily converted to 5,10 methylene THF without use of DHFR. That being said dietary folates parallel more with folic acid than with folinic acid with one crucial difference ... they can be processed in the intestinal lumen and the liver. Folic acid (I am pretty sure) being fully oxidized must be converted in the liver.

I don't think this changes the fact that high dietary folates could be an issue for some people who can not make use of them, have intestinal wall damage, or critical needs for 5mthf but let's be honest while maybe garden feasts are not a good idea, it is not wise probably to eschew vegetables entirely as a general rule.

 

[Victronix]

FYI, in today's news, a Norwegian study 6 yr study with over 80,000 kids . . .

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/12/folic-acid-autism-risk/1911043/

Study links folic acid to lower autism risk
Liz Szabo, USA TODAY5:22p.m. EST February 12, 2013
Women who took folic acid supplements before and during pregnancy were about 40% less likely to have a baby later diagnosed with autism, according to a new study. . . But Halladay notes that taking folic acid doesn't guarantee that women won't have a child with autism. Some women in the study still had an autistic child after taking the supplements.

Folate, the natural form of folic acid, is found in lentils, spinach, black beans, peanuts, orange juice, romaine lettuce and broccoli. Most people don't get enough folic acid from food, however. . . . doctors recommend all women of childbearing age take 400 micrograms of folic acid a day. In the USA, grains such as flour, rice and cereal have been fortified with folic acid since 1998. Norway does not add folic acid to foods.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I wonder what their results would have been if they had used folinic acid or methylfolate. Some people, especially women, cannot metabolize folic acid.

 

[Asklipia]

Does Rich (RIP) mention that veggies are sprayed or treated with folic acid? I don't know why juicing would be such a problem for me causing extreme weakness, low mood, extreme lethargy, lack of desire, bowl issues. I was basically bed bound for 6 days and functioned at my job just one day a week for those months. I couldn't food shop NOTHING....Any takers on this question?

Hello cph13,
I just saw your very perceptive post and I have some answers :

- Yes veggies are sprayed in shops with a "hydrating" substance to keep them looking fresh. This is mainly water but contains a gum (guar or other) to make sure that the water sticks to the vegetables. This gum is full of an MSG-like substance. That is what I call a fake folate, a kind of folate that is not natural (well, everything is eventually in Nature, but I mean not fit to be eaten) and is in competition with the folates you need to live.
Inducing what Freddd calls "paradoxical folate deficiency" I believe.

- Juicing such vegetables is obviously worse because you get more concentration of this. Even juicing your own garden's vegetable concentrates folates so much that if your body is unable to process folates due to years of fake folates poisoning, you will be sick.

- Folates are addictive. They give a kick to the sympathetic system which is enjoyable, especially to people who lack B12. Vegetarians are particularly at risk. I know that I am not getting popular by saying this, but never mind!

- And even worse for my popularity : I believe that a lot of the problem of not being able to process folates started with adding fake folates to food in the 19th century. The more time passes, the more people get resistant to these fake folates and new fake folates have to be developped. Now is metformin etc. Well, it might or it might not be the answer to folate deficiency/intolerance. Time will tell. They may just be another step in the wrong direction. Unfortunately we won't know so soon.
Personally I prefer this solution :
Make someone else process the folates. Time proven method.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/diy-methylfolate-factory.21827/#post-333896
Lots of good wishes!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[cph13]

Oh, did I FINALLY, fall asleep on the job. 8-{ Somehow I missed these posts. Thank U all for your words of wisdom.
I especially loved Asklipias' "TIME PROVEN METHOD", LOL

Thank you ALL
Happy, healthy healing,
Hugs