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Folic Acid Overdose and subsequent landslide

Discussion in 'Genetic Testing and SNPs' started by flong, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. flong

    flong

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    I just made a comment in another thread...but basically I started by taking about 420mcg and having major sleep disturbances, but feeling pretty good the next day. I skipped a day, then tried it again yesterday with the exact same result last night and today.
    I'm going to be looking for a supplement with a much lower dose. Dividing a 5mg b12 losenge into 50 equal parts isn't something I'm interested in doing! I'd like to start with 100mcg maybe every few days and see how that goes at first.
    Here's the thread... http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b12-and-insomnia.17904/page-6#post-951899
     
  2. flong

    flong

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    It's been a month, not too much has changed, I've held onto the current diet of only certain veggies, fruits, and ground beef and chicken, honey and eggs. That's it.
    Today I had my first grain in almost two months: GF oatmeal soaked in lemon juice and water overnight and drained this morning. I'm going to give that a day and see if there's any reaction to it, hopefully I can tolerate it now.
    I'm going to try the following formula in small doses at first... http://www.nfh.ca/products.asp?ID=224
    My ND has given me some samples to try...it includes B1 as @Eastman had suggested.
    The red alert alarm bells have quieted a lot, thankfully. Only if I take something or eat something or something is really off do they go off again. I'm hoping I get some peace after eating oatmeal today!
    I got results back from an echocardiogram and an electrocardiogram, and I have two issues: trace anterior pericardial effusion, AND trace tricuspid regurgitation. I don't have a family doctor and haven't talked to anybody about it, not sure what the tricuspid regurgitation means other than what Google tells me yet, just wanted to mention it here.
    In the meantime I'm hanging on and hoping things improve as I am kind to my system.
    You guys are the best! Thanks.
     
  3. flong

    flong

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    Two items here:
    1) I'm starting this product... http://www.nfh.ca/products.asp?ID=224
    Yesterday I tried about 5% of the capsule at most, and within 6 or 7 minutes I had a major energy rush, started to panic a bit, but then it seemed to subside within the hour, although I felt weird most of the day.
    Does anybody know what may have caused this? Or what taking this combo is supposed to do?
    2) I've been stuck on a 2mg dose of Wellbutrin for a few years (I have to have it made at a compounding pharmacy, since the smallest dose available here is 150mg)...I've tried unsuccessfully to come off it. When I stop it, I seem fine for a few days, then day three or four I start getting the worst "light as a feather" feelings, tingling, brain fog, anxiety, nausea, headache, insomnia. I've tried riding it out for almost two weeks once, but it kept getting worse and worse, so I went back on it and started feeling better within two or three days.
    I'm taking Nozinan (Methoprazine) now, also a tiny dose at 5mg. I tried coming off of it about a month ago and had a very similar experience, so I had to reinstate it as well. Has anybody heard of this major reaction? It's like when I took a micro-dose of the b12 and I was awake for days. What the heck is going on with my system?
    Thank you so much
     
  4. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Virginia, USA
    Did you do a liver panel? Yellowing of the skin is called jaundice and it means the liver is complaining about "something." If I had jaundice, I'd visit a gastroenterologist yesterday.
     
    pattismith likes this.
  5. Galixie

    Galixie

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    Did your ND run a full iron panel (serum iron, ferritin, TIBC, and saturation percent)?

    Anemia of chronic disease is a non-iron-deficiency anemia as well. In that instance, the body has enough iron but the immune system supresses transportation of the iron to be used in blood production. It might explain why your cells are normal sized.

    In pernicious anemia, the cells are usually larger than normal. However, your high folate level might be partially masking pernicious anemia. Are you being tested for parietal cell or intrinsic factor antibodies?
     
  6. flong

    flong

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    I'm not being tested for any of that, but I'll ask about everything you mentioned when I go back to my ND in two weeks. The tests are generally expensive in Canada and not covered, but if they're going to help my ND (and the people here) solve some of this puzzle I'll gladly do them.
    Blood production seems to be an issue: it seems like I don't have enough blood to get the proper nutrients around...so blood production seems to be an issue in itself and yes, my RBC folate level is still very high.
    There very well may be an immune system link here too: it's to the point where I seem to get a major reaction from almost everything I introduce, vitamins, drugs, most food, etc.
    This post has really given me a lot of amazing info. It feels like I'm getting much closer to figuring this thing out, and I have a feeling someone here is going to hit the nail on the head soon.
    Thanks so much.
     
  7. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    Sorry to come in late.

    And I agree hugely with what @nanonug said - get liver function tested if you have yellow skin. jaundice is not a good thing to have.

    In the meantime, I would try vitamin C in whatever form is tolerated.

    I don't know about your other meds, but this http://www.nfh.ca/products.asp?ID=224 contains:
    • Acetyl-ʟ‑carnitine hydrochloride
    • Quercetin
    • R‑α‑Lipoic acid
    • Grape seed (Vitis vinifera) extract
    • Vitamin B1 (thiamine hydrochloride)
    • PQ10 (emulsified coenzyme Q10)

    Some people can't tolerate ALA (the R‑α‑Lipoic acid) - especially if they have mercury issues. I actually won't buy any supplements with ALA listed because of that (and because I had to throw some out because of the ALA and the resulting decline).

    Others don't do well on PQ10/CoQ10 - my mother is totally intolerant of it, and I can't do more than a few days - and we're not the sick ones (I'm here as a carer). It's too stimulating.

    Even ALCAR can also be too stimulating, and B1 can too.

    And they're just the ones I know about.

    So you definitely had a great result - an energy rush. But what was the nature of that 'weird for the rest of the day' feeling? Weird as in unaccustomed energy, wired, or anxious, or wiped out?
     
  8. Lisa108

    Lisa108

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    Just to add my two cents... pernicious anemia is caused by b12-deficiency. Without b12 your body cannot convert folic acid into its metabolically active form.
    B12 deficiency can cause jaundice, too. (But let your liver be checked just in case...)
    And neurological symptoms. And anxiety, depression, dementia, etc...

    The enlargement of blood cells is happening quite late in the course of disease and can also be masked by the simultaneous occurence of iron-deficiency (like @Galixie already said, and I'd also do a full iron panel!).

    The "normal" lab tests here in germany are definitely not enough to rule out b12-deficiency. I added a test called "holo-TC", which shows the amount of the metabolically acitve form of b12 in your body.

    In my case, I self-injected hydroxycobalamin, wich worked fine for me. Others here on the forum use B12-oils ( a recent thread is a good help here).

    Vitamin B1 is something I will look into next. Thank you, @Eastman.

    Good luck! Lisa
     
  9. flong

    flong

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    The weird feeling I got for the rest of the day was a big rush of energy, brain fog, and trouble sleeping. I get that reaction from lots of stuff these days...most recently I got it from eating ground coconut. Coconut water is fine, but the meat I can't have.
     
  10. flong

    flong

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    Over and over again I keep coming back to low b12. But my levels are apparently fine. I'm almost sure this is where the trouble is somehow. My folate level is super high, but it doesn't mean it's being absorbed properly, in fact I don't think it is. I have a double mutation on the SLC19a1 G80A gene, and I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I think it has something to do with it. I can't take b12 (methylcobalamin) because it keeps me awake and feeling weird for days at a time.
    I'm going to ask for a full iron panel, and I'd like to thank you all for driving that home. It also seems like it's very much related.
    Thank you all so much, I'll post results as soon as I get them.
     
    Lisa108 likes this.
  11. flong

    flong

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    I've really gone back in my history and thought about the slow and steady deterioration of my physical and mental health since I was a kid. Things got significantly worse each time I had an infection, or some major health event, and there usually wasn't a full recovery. Ever. My physical and mental health have gotten worse over the years...I've always felt a bit "poisoned", but especially now.
    Even though I rarely do it, if I take half of a 200mg of Advil, I feel great, sleep like a baby, have a good appetite, etc. Until it wears off. Obviously a sign of chronic inflammation right?
    I'm going to have the Organic Acid Test soon. I'm hoping I get some answers, maybe some real treatment options will come of it.
    I'm wondering how much of my present condition has to do with having things like mono in 2001, or H1N1 in 2009. Both shocks to my system, and both resulted in major reactions in which I never seemed to fully recover.
    The whole thing is kind of a mess in my mind. I just know there must be some kind of links between all this stuff.
    I know since I started taking probiotics about 4 months ago, many of my symptoms have improved noticeably. But I'm wondering what kind of shape my gut flora is in...if I had to guess, I'd guess it's still a disaster and has been for a long time. Is the Organic Acid Test going to be able to tell me something about gut health?
    I'm going to ask for a full iron panel when I see the doctor in one week. Things are slow here in the health care system, and I have to pay for a lot of it out of pocket.
    Hoping for the best.
    Thank you kindly for all your answers.
     
  12. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    Have you had your active B12 and total B12 both measured? You can have loads of total B12 but not enough active.
     
  13. shoponl

    shoponl

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    If anything, I'd guess the B6 was component most likely to cause problems. 100mg/day of the other Bs is reasonable, relatively speaking; but 100mg/day of B6 is significant. Most people can excrete B6, but for others it accumulates and causes odd neurological problems and fatigue. Even after blood levels return to normal, symptoms linger until all of the stored B6 is used.

    I think I had B6 toxicity a couple of years ago. After much experimentation, I found that several Allithiamine (Ecological Formulas 50mg), reversed my symptoms reliably. Potassium salts (gluconate, chloride, etc.) also helped.

    There are a few Facebook groups on B6 Toxicity; you might see if your symptoms match theirs.
     
  14. flong

    flong

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    The supplement I was taking included b6 in the form of 100mcg pyridoxine hydrochloride. I actually don't know if that's a good form of b6 or not, but I do know that almost a month after not taking it anymore, my b6 levels came back three times higher than the "safe range". My RBC Folate came back very high too.
    The supplement contained 1mg of folic acid. As I mentioned in another post, I have a double mutation in an SLC gene that dictates folic acid metabolism. I still don't understand exactly how it works, but I've been told to avoid folic acid at all costs.
    The supplement also included 100mcg b12 in the form of methylcobalamin, which I understand is a good form of b12. My blood level was always normal, even right after stopping the supplement. I have since tried to take the b12 on its own a few times which resulted in insomnia and major edginess and anxiety for several days.
    Thanks so much for the info. I'm going to look into all of that...I'm not on Facebook but I might be able to find it anyway.
     
  15. flong

    flong

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    The only form of b12 I've taken is methylcobalamin. I seem to react very strongly to it. Even tiny amounts (100mcg) seem to cause major anxiety, insomnia and other stuff very quickly. I don't know of any way of testing different types of b12. In Canada it looks like we only have one test for b12, and it doesn't specify what form it's in. Same with the folate test. RBC folate. That's it.
    However, I'm taking the Organic Acid test soon, and I think there will be a lot of info coming back soon. When it does I'm guessing we'll have a lot to talk about!
     
  16. shoponl

    shoponl

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    Three times higher than upper end of range, and a month later? That's fairy definitive.

    The FB group is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/646501652136321 if you share your story and test results, they can probably help you. When I was in the group, they were stressing hydration with light exercise(to flush out the B6 from muscles). And time.

    Please consider taking Allithiamine and potassium daily, as they really did help me.

    Good luck! :)

    *edit: 100mcg or mg of B6?
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  17. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    Liver is the first concern of course! But you can also have pseudo-jaundice with a perfectly fine liver panel;


    I have a tendency of yellowish of my skin since I am young and my plasma is yellow.
    I just received my beta-carotene blood test, it says it is high, and hypercarotenemia causes pseudo-jaundice.

    One possible cause of hypercarotenemia is hypothyroidism. I have the low T3 syndrome (although always have had fine thyroid panels), so most likely the cause in my case is a tissue hypothyroidism.

    @flong, sorry I didn't read all your posts, how is you liver panel? and your thyroid panel?
     
  18. flong

    flong

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    Another thing that keeps coming back is the possibility of hypothyroidism, actually for the last 20 years almost. My family doctor wouldn't do the T3 test when I asked for it. I'm not familiar with "tissue hypothyroidism", going to look it up now.
    Liver came back fine and so did the regular thyroid test, but the tests are basic. No panel. I'll be seeing my ND tomorrow, maybe she'll order those two for me, I'll ask. I'm looking into getting a full iron panel as well.

    As far as the yellow skin, I have no idea. I get the feeling it's not a problem with my liver, though I haven't had a full liver panel either! I eat a lot of carrots now. I also seem to have some kind of iron issue. But without the tests I'm not really able to give much more info just yet.
     
    pattismith likes this.
  19. flong

    flong

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    I'm getting the Organic Acid test probably tomorrow. As I understand the test will be able to tell me the two main things I've been wondering: different levels of B vitamins, and different levels of certain gut bacteria. I know there's a problem with both of these. Taking that b100 supplement really pushed this problem over the edge, and I'm really looking forward to getting a better look at what's screwed up.
    There are genetic elements to this too. Two double mutated genes I've got are SLC19a1 G80A which has something to do with folate, and MTRR A66G which has something to do with b12. I know I absolutely can't take methylcobalamin, and I'm guessing it's all related. Even if I take as little as 100mcg of methylcobalamin I can't sleep for days. Could someone please explain a little bit about this? I imagine I'm going to have to do some fine tuning after I get the OAT test back, but if I can get any info about those two genes I'll take it.
    Thanks!!
     
  20. flong

    flong

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    I got the Organic Acids Test back. There certainly is a lot to cover here, so I'll just post the ones that were indicated as high or low. There were 9 of 76 indicators of either low or high (L and H).
    I am all ears when it comes to this stuff, if anyone has some input it is more than welcome!

    Intestinal Microbial Overgrowth:
    Carboxycitric Reference Range <20, mine is 65
    2-Hydroxyphenylacetic Reference Range 0.03-0.47, mine is 0.69
    4-Hydroxybenzoic Reference Range <0.01-0.73, mine is 0.89

    Oxalate Metabolites:
    Glycolic Reference Range 18-81, mine is 105

    Mitochondrial Markers - Krebs Cycle:
    2-Oxoglucaric Reference Range <18, mine is 25

    Mitochondrial Markers - Amino Acid Metabolites:
    3-Hydroxyglutaric Reference Range <4.6, mine is 6.7

    Pyrimidine Metabolites - Folate Metabolism
    Uracil Reference Range <6.9, mine is 8.2

    Nutritional Markers:
    Vitamin C (Ascorbic) Reference Range 10-200, mine is 0.49

    Amino Acid Metabolites:
    Mandelic Reference Range <0.09, mine is 0.15
     
    ljimbo423 likes this.

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