The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Fecal metagenomic profiles in subgroups of patients with ME/CFS

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Kati, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    I'd like to see more emphasis on individual patient measures than group differences. I suspect sub-groups are masking many potential significant differences from controls.
     
  2. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    This paper I referenced earlier in the thread http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...patients-with-me-cfs.51002/page-5#post-842084 suggests that endurance exercise results in (both negative and positive) alterations to the microbiome affecting some of the species mentioned in the Hornig paper.

    By implication the differences seen in the ME/CFS microbiome could be due to inactivity. Ideally they would need to exclude that possibility.
     
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  3. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    And then there would need to be hundreds if not thousands of patients to add to statistical power to what we all have in common (test wise, not symptom wise) and tease out the subsets.


    We always seem to be limited by money.
     
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  4. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    I was thinking more in terms of examining individual data sets to see if there are any unusual patterns. It may be that in some individuals certain measures are elevated and in others lowered. In a straight group comparison the two 'sub-groups' would cancel each other out.
     
  5. justy

    justy Donate Advocate Demonstrate

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    Sorry not sure what you are asking, don't know much about what you are discussing - sounds feasible. WHat I am talking about is PROVEN traslocation - bacteria that should not be there showing in the blood. This is what I have.
     
  6. ash0787

    ash0787 Senior Member

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    my concerns -

    how does this tie into multiple onset triggers ? how fast could a stomach ecosystem change which is extensive enough to cause disease causing change take place ?

    by what possible mechanism could this tie into rons discovery ? could there be some sort of toxin these bacteria are producing which can disrupt the metabolism of the individual muscle cells in such a way ?

    could such a scenario persist despite varying patient lifestyles including starvation and even targeted interventions aimed at the stomach ?
     
  7. Manganus

    Manganus Senior Member

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    Are these lipopolysaccharids anchored on living bacteria, or are they assumed to be free proteins in the intestinal fluid?

    Those lipopolysaccharids that are argued to trigger not only an innate immune response, but also argued to cause gaps in the endothelial wall.

    That's what I try to understand.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
  8. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

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  9. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Cort writes that Lipkin will be publishing a follow-up study shortly which will discuss possible treatments -

    http://simmaronresearch.com/2017/04/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-microbiome-gut-subset/#comment-16973

    It would seem that Dr Lipkin thinks that there will be two distinct treatments that might be helpful if ME/CFS patients do indeed shows the problems mentioned in the study discussed above. One involves drugs that modulate the immune response whereas the other will benefit sufferers with drugs that modulate neurotransmitters.

    I find this very interesting because I definitely fit the picture having had Campylabactor poisoning in 1998 and being unable to work by 2000. My Genova GI effects stool test done late 2015 are typical of Lipkin's findings with low abundance of the beneficial bacteria despite a good high fibre diet and me having taken lots of good probiotics.

    Pam
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
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  10. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    They have found both high and low cytokine levels in cfs. They found high levels of some cytokines in cfs patients of 3 years or less (short duration) and low levels of the same cytokines in patients with long duration of illness, greater than 3 years. Taken as a whole, which most studies have done, they would cancel each other out. Showing the same cytokines, as neither high nor low, but in the normal range.

    LINK
     
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  11. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    I agree and I understood but I also think that bigger samples are needed to truly understand our heterogenous patient population.
     
  12. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    But that doesn't explain how we can have symptoms without cytokines...
     
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  13. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    I'm waiting for someone to blame midochlorians.
     
  14. Solstice

    Solstice Senior Member

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    Whoever thought those up should be court-marshalled..
     
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  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    Well, there is a bacteria named after them which can infect the mitochondria :nerd: I know of at least one ME patient who has tested positive at a lab in a German university.
     
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  16. Manganus

    Manganus Senior Member

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    Hey, Valentijn!
    That was interesting.

    (In a general scientifical sense, I mean.)

    But then... who the heck were the midochlorians?
     
  17. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    The pseudo-explanation for Jedi powers, created in Episode I of Star Wars.
     
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  18. Solstice

    Solstice Senior Member

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    AKA the worst thing to happen to the franchise, that episode one.

    To stay on topic, I wonder if filgotinib could "break the chain" as they say, in the future. Stop LPS/inflammation then our immune system returns to normal and our gut resets too. I'm a layman though, so half the stuff posted in this forum is way over my head.
     
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  19. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member

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    Hi, from memory Chris Armstrong (Melbourne University) proposed that switching to burning amino acids as an energy source (rather than glucose) would lead to a less acidic gut with consequent switch in gut bugs (to a pro-inflamatory microbiome). Check out his 2016 webinar and subsequent publication. Interestingly, Chris suggested that once you've the disrupted metabolism (burning protein rather than glucose) then you get the disrupted microbiome which maintains the disrupted metabolism (viscous circle).

    Also, folks at the IMO (Ron Davis among others) have been looking for something in plasma which is switching the cellular metabolism (from burning glucose to amino acids - I assume) - there's a recent video online, and blogs on this site, covering this . Finding that would appear to be interesting; since turning it off would presumably allow the microbiome to return to normal.

    PS - I think someone suggested that Davis's team first identified the metabolic switch to burning amino acids. I'm pretty sure it was Chris Armstrong (among others); however, the paper just didn't get picked up until the publication by Davis's team regarding altered metabolism in ME/CFS. Check out the webinar.

    Good to see this gut bugs paper but when are we going to see the diagnostic tested mentioned here? Also, is the bug test expensive i.e. if it could be used to diagnose?

    Sorry for the rushed email.


     
  20. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    This is very interesting. My wife does not have IBS, but there are common foods we have learned she must avoid, else she does end up with severe stomach/gut issues ... if she indulged in some foods she would have persistent IBS-like symptoms, and in some cases become very ill indeed. Homing in on what foods need avoiding is actually very very tricky, and I suspect that many/some of the ME/CFS sufferers presenting with co-morbid IBS, could in fact be people who have not identified the foods they need to avoid or be very careful about. Ordinary, normally good, foods such as:-

    Bananas
    Tomatoes
    Sweet peppers
    Chilli peppers
    Soya

    So I wonder here if the 10% are people who have the potential for IBS, but have learned what foods they need to avoid?
     
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