International ME/CFS and FM Awareness Day Is On May 12, 2018
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Fecal metagenomic profiles in subgroups of patients with ME/CFS

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Kati, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I"m not aware of Lipkin writing about SIBO specifically, just an altered microbiome.


    I would like to see a study like that also! From all the reading I have done, there are varying degrees of SIBO. Some people can have SIBO and not have any significant degree of leaky gut.

    Others can have SIBO and a leaky gut that ranges from mild to severe, with various degrees of bacterial translocation (ie.-LPS). There are of course many factors, that you are probably aware of, that make one more or less vulnerable to the severity of SIBO and a leaky gut.

    Many of the triggers of CFS are also known to cause or worsen, SIBO/dysbiosis and a leaky gut. Excessive stress from everyday life, a viral or bacterial infection, a car accident or the loss of a loved one,etc. can have a big impact on the microbiome and a leaky gut.

    These triggers might, in some cases, be the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. Here is paper talking about stress and an altered microbiome.

    Chronic stress also can cause or worsen a leaky gut -

    LINK

    ETA: Thanks for the hesperidin and lps link- I will definitely read!
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
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  2. Kati

    Kati Patient in training

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    Thanks @aaron_c for the heads up and sorry for missing in action. I have updated the original post and title
     
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  3. Manganus

    Manganus Senior Member

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    Sorry to have to ask, but in my understanding it's a huge difference between, on one hand, free LPS that may be dissolved in the intestinal fluids and get squeezed through thin gaps of the intestinal wall, when too many tight junctions have given up, resulting in a gap between the epithelial cells, and on the other hand whole bacteria, that ends up outside of the intestin, in the tissues, gets into the lympatic system, and possibly into the blood stream.

    Without doing the math, I think the dimensions of the gap that bacterias can pass through must be magnitudes larger that that kind of gaps that LPS may get filtered through.



    [​IMG]
     
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  4. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    My concern is mostly that prior to a fecal transplant I am supposed to take antibiotics--but I'm not clear on what antibiotics I should take. Like Solstice, I am under the impression that some antibiotics are better at killing some bugs than others. So this gives me an idea of what bugs I should make sure that my antibiotic can kill.

    Maybe it's not that simple? But that was my thinking.
     
  5. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    I have this too. I'm a bit of a lightweight with alcohol, although I don't know if that's ME/CFS or just how little I drink. But I get more energy from just a glass or possibly two of wine (that's as much as I ever drink). Even after the "drunk" wears off, for the next 24 hours my energy is way better!

    I've always figured that this "cure" would have diminishing returns, so I haven't really done much with it. It would be interesting if there were some kind of connection to the metabolics of my gut bacteria.
     
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  6. aimossy

    aimossy Senior Member

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    Oh your right - blast!! :)
     
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  7. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    This study is not exactly what you are looking for, but it might be something you want to look at, if you haven't already.
    LINK

     
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  8. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

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    I truly believe that in my case, it was antibiotics - Penicillin to be exact - that caused my ME/CFS.
     
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  9. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    As my wife sometimes says;)
     
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  10. Cheesus

    Cheesus Senior Member

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    @Manganus

    It is actually quite normal to have bacterial translocation from the gut into the bloodstream. If you run shotgun metagenomics on the blood of a healthy person, you will find a diverse array of microbial DNA.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26865079
     
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  11. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    So... I truly appreciate they did this study (especially from still having IBS-D), but I can't find anything very actionable, to be expected. The gut is out of my league and my only working solutions involve drastic avoidance.

    Is there anyone who's researched the gut populations enough to have any practical ideas based on the distributions, like aaron posted? There was a member @Vegas who seemed to know what he was doing, but he hasn't posted lately... I'd like to know what he thinks...
     
  12. Murph

    Murph :)

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    Just wanted to shout out to @ljimbo423 for the link above. That's a good paper that I'd forgotten, and very relevant here.

    Following maximal exercise challenge, there was an increase in relative abundance of 6 of the 9 major bacterial phyla/genera in ME/CFS patients from baseline to 72 hours post-exercise compared to only 2 of the 9 phyla/genera in controls (p = 0.005).

    There was also a significant difference in clearance of specific bacterial phyla from blood following exercise with high levels of bacterial sequences maintained at 72 hours post-exercise in ME/CFS patients versus clearance in the controls.

    These results provide evidence for a systemic effect of an altered gut microbiome in ME/CFS patients compared to controls. Upon exercise challenge, there were significant changes in the abundance of major bacterial phyla in the gut in ME/CFS patients not observed in healthy controls.

    In addition, compared to controls clearance of bacteria from the blood was delayed in ME/CFS patients following exercise. These findings suggest a role for an altered gut microbiome and increased bacterial translocation following exercise in ME/CFS patients that may account for the profound post-exertional malaise experienced by ME/CFS patients.

    This chart shows certain bacteria in the blood at baseline and 15 minutes post exercise.
    Screen Shot 2017-04-28 at 7.13.29 AM.png
    --

    Also, as far as thinking about why changed gut bacteria might be relevant, we should keep in mind the vagus nerve as well as the gut wall.

    I was briefly involved in a Twitter exchange with Michael van Elzakker, Harvard Postdoc and ME/CFS researcher. He says "Vagus nerve samples the enteric microbiota on an ongoing basis; probably some peoples' ME/CFS symptoms are driven by inflammatory gut flora."

    The vagus nerve links the gut and the brain (which is itself an immune mediation centre) and could in theory cause the brain to trigger systemic effects.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
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  13. AndyPR

    AndyPR Senior Member

    You might find this article (http://neurosciencenews.com/parkinsons-vagotomy-6518/) based on this paper (http://www.neurology.org/content/early/2017/04/26/WNL.0000000000003961.short) interesting then.
     
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  14. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Joke? Or are you avoiding the obvious implication of the sentence I quoted from the paper, which was that they are interested in the gut in ME because it might be a way of controlling the severity of the illness?
     
  15. M Paine

    M Paine Senior Member

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    Compared to controls typical markers for inflammation are often elevated in ME/CFS patients (CRP, IL-6, neopterin etc..). It's not that these patient groups don't have elevated markers for inflammation, rather that they cannot identify a consistent pattern.
     
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  16. Gemini

    Gemini Senior Member

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    Or right....

    This 2-minute video is worth a watch: describes a triggering infection, think of the ME/CFS "hit-and-run" theory, which then causes microbiota dysfunction and translocation leading to chronic disease (animal model); research published in Cell with commentary in Science:



    @Simon wrote an excellent post in 2015 about the findings:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...t-infection-in-mouse-study.40408/#post-650239
     
  17. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    Wound't we see more Chron's Desease here?? I do have colitis which is related, since the low bacteria Faecalibacterium is implicated in several other diseases.
     
  18. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Very interesting and relevant, thanks.

    A general question: how can LPS in plasma make you feel ill if there is no cytokine/C4a/CD14 response?
    (My understanding was that the immune response to LPS was what made you ill - is this not true?)
     
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  19. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    I'm suddenly much more interested in the vagus nerve hypothesis now!
     
  20. Marco

    Marco Grrrrrrr!

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    If they had set out plausible hypothesis supporting this I'd welcome it. I just don't see it in this paper.
     

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