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Extreme sensitivity to MSG causing severe insomnia - any ideas?

Discussion in 'Hypersensitivity and Intolerance' started by Mary, Jan 5, 2018.

  1. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    @perchance dreamer - you know what, I just realized that vinegar is on the list I linked in the first post above. I was trying to find out why, and found this very interesting article about glutamate, vinegar, etc.: https://missionheirloom.wordpress.c...u-heard-us-say-free-glutamate-and-no-vinegar/

    So it's possible that it wasn't the citric acid I reacted to the in the mustard, but the vinegar, or both.

    I don't know if I would react to the vinegar in your mayonnaise. This article did say that apple cider vinegar has the least glutamate.

    @halcyon - you might find the above article interesting - it talks about how free form glutamate does not need to cross the blood brain barrier to affect us:

     
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  2. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    oh yes, I relate totally to this, exactly this, including the middle of the night thing. and then after 3 to 4 hours, finished with the sleep... For me, the middle of the night waking up is related to detoxing problems. Liverphase one being too fast and phase two not keeping up. Thereby dropping nasty toxins in my blood. You sweat when you wake around 3? heart going too fast? just asking...

    for the calming down the glutamate route I use glycine ( 3 grams) taken about an hour before I retire to my bed. Plus I use 300mg of natural GABA when I lay dow my head. (+ I also use 5HTP, but that has no relation to the glutamate thing as far as I know, but helps relaxing and is precursor to melatonin)

    and I have a supplement that is created to calm down the glutamate route and the dopaminergic disbalance. as you're from California you probably cannot buy it overthere,

    can give you the ingredients if you like, its herbal extracts:

    and I'll look out for citric acid ( now that I read it something I reacted badly to springs to mind... what an amazing forum this is)


    that biggie may be peanuts... and in general just all fermented foods.
     
  3. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    Hi @Sundancer - sounds like we are going much the same route :) I started taking 3000 mg glycine before bed a few years ago, plus I take more in the middle of the night. I also take l-theanine (for the brain to produce GABA) and plain GABA. And 5-htp before bed.

    Now, I have just learned that low magnesium is related to middle of the night insomnia. I thought I was taking adequate magnesium but hair analysis has just showed that my calcium/magnesium ratio is very heavily skewed in favor of calcium and it was recommended that I stop calcium supplements, temporarily at least, which I have done. And I have jacked up my magnesium at night - 400 mg magnesium glycinate before bed and 200 to 400 more in the middle of the night. And I have finally started going back to sleep in the middle of the night, instead of being awake for hours (!) It feels too good to be true! Crossing my fingers ...

    I also learned something interesting about msg - taurine is supposed to help with msg neurotoxicity - and B6 is necessary for the body to make taurine I already knew I needed a fair amount of B6 from Nutreval testing of 2010, and have been taking 100 mg P-5-P a day in divided doses, 50 mg each with breakfast and lunch. So I've just upped my P-5-P to 150 mg., still with breakfast and lunch because ironically enough it gives me insomnia at night.

    And B6 is necessary for proper magnesium absorption and utilization. It all ties together - so now I'm thinking that my extreme msg sensitivity may be due to low B6, when I feel up to staying awake 3/4 of the night, I'm going to try an experiment and see if I react as strongly to msg now that I have increased my B6 and magnesium.

    I generally wasn't waking up at 3:00 a.m., I was already awake from 12 or 1. And my heart didn't race and I generally didn't have night sweats - and because I'm sleeping better with more magnesium and less calcium, I think I found the culprit!

    For what it's worth, glycine initially caused a huge detox reaction for me, but starting very low and slow I was able to gradually build up my dose. I liked it so much for sleep, I wanted to keep taking it. Also, inositol and glutamine also helped with detoxing. I used to have detox symptoms much of the time, I reacted to so many things, and I don't any more. I think my detox pathways are finally working properly. Here's a very interesting article about Phase II liver detoxification, which mentions these 3 nutrients, among other things: https://www.diagnose-me.com/treatment/liver-detoxification-phase-II-support.php
     
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  4. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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  5. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    and found this in another thread
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nic-fatigue-syndrome.56944/page-2#post-956401

    <<<<New
    Chronic lithium treatment was found to robustly reduce glutamate-induced excitotoxicity mediated by N-methyl-D-asparatate (NMDA) receptors. This effect was at least partly due to lithium’s ability to inhibit the influx of calcium, which mediates NMDA receptor activity.

    lithium orotate helps protect the brain from negative effects of calcium>>>>

    is there anyway to directly quote from another thread? or to direct to a post elsewhere?

    OH, and reading these things about calcium, that maybe the reason i did react so bad on calciumsupplements. Shortly after I started to drink goatsmilk, that went well so I thought this way I ave my calcium. But now I've tightened my diet, part of that is reducing the lactose...I'll be careful monitoring waht happens to the body when I start it....
     
  6. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    Hi @Sundancer - If you highlight the text in a post that you want to respond to, a little drop down menu will appear at the bottom of the text and you can select either "multiquote" or "reply". I always hit "reply" and the highlighted text then appears in the reply box below so you can respond just to it. And you can do that as many times as you want, reply to several different sections, in one post.

    I don't know how to use the "multi-quote" feature, but think I should :whistle: It's supposed to be easy to do, but I have not taken the time to figure it out. (though others here are whizzes at it!)

    If you want to quote from a different thread, I'd first post the link like you did above, and then highlight the desired text and copy it into your new post. You can then put it in quotes by highlighting the quoted text, and then selecting the fourth tab from the right in the formatting options above (not counting the 2 on the far right). When you select that fourth tab, then select "quote" and it will put the highlighted text in quotes.

    Re calcium and magnesium - my calcium was not that high on hair analysis - in the low to mid-normal range, and my magnesium, though low, was just inside the normal range (at the bottom). But the problem apparently is the ratio of calcium to magnesium, and I don't think a blood test will show this, or it might be possible to do but you would need to do some calculations, I don't know. So you might consider getting a hair analysis done. I used an on-line company which turned out to be very good. My prior doctor did this every year but he died a few years ago. If you'd like more info on this, I can send you a PM (private message).

    Re your B6 and the tingling - I've never had that problem. Maybe others here can help.

    I did have problems with excess glutamate at night after tapering off of lorazepam and a few things that helped were high dose vitamin C, Resveratrol and calcium pyruvate, all of which are glutamate scavengers. However, I've kept on taking these things for many months and have just realized in the last few days that although calcium pyruvate initially helped me, long-term it was not a good idea - too much calcium, especially at night! :bang-head:

    Interesting about lithium - I do take 5 mg. lithium orotate, more might have been useful last year but my glutamate issues seem to be resolved now.
     
  7. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    like this, that's easy :)

    found that one, is easy too, on the right side down, you click ' multiquote' then put your cursor in the messagebox and click on the " insert quotes" button ( that button is only there when you have quoted something first.)

    err...fuzzy head, fourth button from the left...oh my..

    yay, i did it, thanks :thumbsup: ( is true though, since I take methylcobolamine I sleep much better :))

    I do not have a real doctor, just my GP. Real doctors are not to be had overhere, so trying to puzzle out on my own. But know that calcium is low, for the simple reason that I hardly use calcium rich food now that I stopped the goatsmilk.

    I am considering now to test things, but first I need money. Trying to get a loan from the bank. Probably it will work out. But I have to find out exactly what i sign before I sign and my head is still a bit too fuzzy.

    But if I get that loan I will do some testing and see that i find someone that can help me with these things. I did find a lady that maybe will able to help me, but...money first. And then thinking on what is useful. I want my MTHFR checked, and COMT. I've been reading like an idiot the last weeks, and it feels to me like there the root of many troubles lies...

    I've been searching today, did not find answers. I do think the tingling comes from a severe shortage of B12 that has been building up for years. GP thinks it comes from High B6, wich I understand, as too high levels of folic acid are renowned for their danger to create neuropathy. But, I take the P5P version, which I think should not lead to tingling.

    I did make a thread on my B12 adventure + the problems I encounter but got no reasons. Maybe I should make a short post with only the B6 thing in it, in the title too.

    For me the question is: why does my body not use this B6. It has need for it, somewhere there is a cofactor missing that my body needs to utilize the stuff.

    I feel it might be zinc or calcium, I feel sure I'm deficient in both of them. But had bad reactions on them earlier. So sometime in the next week I'll try them again in small doses,and see what happens. But cannot find a thing about it on internet.

    oh, and when I find that missing link, it might give an enormous kick in the methylation too I think. With it's own set of bodyproblems....

    tapering of lorazepam, you have my respect. yes that will set all kind of devils loose in the body.

    I'll look up calciumpyruvate, sounds interesting ( when one has a calciumdeficiency that is ;))
    Reservatrol not my thing, I cannot handle anything that comes from grapes...??? our bodies are so strange...

    I'm happy with this forum, with you, with people who get me and also search for the things that can help the body regain some balance.:love:
     
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  8. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    Hi @Sundancer - B6 is not folic acid or folate. B6 is pyridoxine. Folate is vitamin B9, and B9 can mask or hide a B12 deficiency. And folic acid, which is synthetic, can actually cause a folate deficiency because it competes for absorption with folate. So in general people should avoid folic acid. There's no need to take it in place of folate and it can actually cause harm. It's recommended to always take B12 with folate, because folate alone can mask a B12 deficiency.

    The tingling very well could be due to a B12 deficiency. My sister who was a vegetarian for many years developed tingling and numbness in various parts of her body which resolved when she started taking B12.

    Re your high levels of B6 - I don't have the answer but I know that B6 is necessary for proper magnesium utilization - perhaps more magnesium might help with this?

    I'm wondering about something - high B12 on blood work does not necessarily mean that someone has too much B12, it can be a sign of B12 deficiency. The B12 is high in the blood because it's not getting into the cells or being properly metabolized. So I'm wondering if the same thing is true of B6 which might explain your high B6 on blood work? I'm just guessing here - don't take this as a fact!

    And again, make sure you're talking about high B6 and not folate, which are 2 different things.
     
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  9. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    I'm waay to high on both.
    I created a B6 thread for it, got some answers ( what an amazing community this is!) and tentatively conclude that both are to high because of B12 deficiency

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/question-about-b6.57798/#post-956839

    I do take liberal amounts of magnesium, and since I take B12 the tingling has gone up, now in the soles of the feet too... maybe it has to get worse before it gets better ( thats what my dad used to say when I was ill as a kid...:love:)
     
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  10. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    Okay, good! Do you take a B complex? just to cover all the bases --
     
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  11. Sundancer

    Sundancer Senior Member

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    It's the Bcomplex thats responsible for these high bloodlevels. So now I take the other B's in amounts that make sense to me. ( the amount of caps accompanying my breakfast has risen again)
    And we will see what the next bloodtest will say about it.

    If it is related to methylation, then the levels will go down quickly, if not, well, then something else is going on.
    But for now I feel pretty good, taking B12 is just what I need. Now carefully add the needed minerals, thats a base I haven't covered yet.
     
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  12. Carnation4000

    Carnation4000

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    Does anyone have any ideas about how I might be able to reduce this sensitivity? My main symptom is extreme insomnia, not being able to go to sleep until after 3:30 a.m. I've read that low B6 may help alleviate this, but I already take 100 mg. a day (if I take if at night, IT causes insomnia for me! :bang-head:)
    ............................................................................................................................................................................................

    Hi Mary - I totally identify with this glutamate sensitivity. My genetics mean I'm more likely to have high glutamate but I recently made everything worse. I started taking collagen to help heal inflammation with my gut lining that was causing restless legs syndrome. I felt better at first but then my Restless Legs went insane, and I couldn't stop it. What a horrible nightmare. I stopped the Collagen but have continued to have issues. While researching this craziness I saw the newer research pointing to glutamate as a reason for restless legs. Turns out the collagen seriously raised my glutamate. Now I'm hypersensitive, and it seems like MSG or some form of it is in everything.

    Glycine, GABA, and Theanine can all turn into glutamate, especially if someone is already sensitive to glutamate.

    The things helping me turn Glutamate into GABA are tiny amounts of B6 (P5P), Taurine, and Elderberry. Valerian also helps but I'm allergic to it unfortunately. I know you've already discussed some of these.

    Some other things helping me: Tart Cherry, Olive Leaf, Magnesium, Grape Seed (not at night), Potassium, and Nettle.

    Some GABA/Glutamate info: https://www.wellnessresources.com/n...in-stimulation-anxiety-and-other-consequences, http://www.theautismexchange.com/or...1/articleid/1020/balancing-gaba-and-glutamate, https://chriskresser.com/beyond-msg-could-hidden-sources-of-glutamate-be-harming-your-health/, http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/how-to-increase-gaba-and-balance-glutamate/, https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...fs-puzzle-the-neuroinflammatory-series-pt-ii/
     
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  13. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    Hi @Carnation4000 - thank you for all the links! I found this one especially helpful: http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/how-to-increase-gaba-and-balance-glutamate/

    I didn't know that GABA and l-theanine and glycine could all be converted into glutamic acid - sometimes I feel like we are doomed! I also found on my own that taurine helps for a little while but then it too leads to excess glutamic acid.

    I am going to investigate a keto diet. I eat low carb, high protein but have never done a strict ketogenic diet which is supposed to help per the article above.

    Oh and I discovered something else I was inadvertently doing to sabotage myself - I had been taking B5 (pantothenic acid) for years for my adrenals. And then learned recently that it depletes taurine and taurine helps with MSG toxicity ... arghhh! So I've stopped the pantothenic acid.

    I don't have RLS but have read that magnesium can help with it - maybe more magnesium would help you?

    It is all such a balancing act - like we're on a high wire and have to be so careful how everything affects everything else --

    Thanks again :)
     
  14. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I am also extremely sensitive to MSG if it is added to food at a restaurant and I am unaware, within a minute of eating it it is like a gun going off in my head and I get extreme dizziness followed by a 24 hour migraine. My heart also goes crazy and I have to take a beta blocker to calm everything down. It's a horrible experience.

    My question is about citric acid however. I was doing a very high dose Vitamin C protocol, around 15000 grams daily but it has completely messed my gut up and also I was getting daily headaches/migraines.

    At doses as high as I was taking, could there have been a lot of glutamate around which would explain how bad my heads have been? I also found that I got migraines from hydrolysed collagen powder which involves glutamic acid. I do have SNPs that stop me converting glutamine to GABA as one should.

    Pam
     
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  15. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Forgot to say that during these weeks on the high dose Vitamin C protocol my sleep was way worse than normal. On many nights I felt a bit wired and couldn't get to sleep until 2 - 3 am and this would only be due to the 25 mg Lyrice and bit of clonazapan. With the latter I just couldn't get off to sleep at all.

    It was a horrible experience that messed my gut up, sleep and migraines and has left me with an adrenal crash which I can see was building up over the past month.

    Pam
     
  16. Carnation4000

    Carnation4000

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    Mary - you are speaking the awful truth!! Yes, sometimes it just feels like I'm doomed.

    I try and be so careful with any supplements, research like crazy before I try something. Even so, like you with the pantothenic acid, I find out the one thing interferes with the other....Noooooooo!!!!

    I have not seen anything about the possibility of Taurine turning into glutamic acid so this is so very helpful to know!! So many articles say "Take Theanine! Take Theanine!" over and over. But I know from experience, yes, it can turn into glutamate and just make everything worse - sigh -

    I'm almost swimming in magnesium so I'm OK on that front - ha ha.

    Actually my restless legs have been better ever since I started focusing on glutamate. But accidentally eating some can sure bring it back. I seem hypersensitive right now but hoping I can calm down a little.

    And just have to say - for anyone dealing with sensitivities, especially glutamate or histamine, Hydolyzed Collagen Powder is NOT our friend!!!
     
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  17. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    Many do well with taurine, so don't not take it because of what I wrote. We are all so different! And at one time taurine did help me. So it might help you. I will re-try it again some time and maybe my body will have changed such that I can I take it (I hope! ;))

    And I do still seem to do well with glycine and theanine. I have just discovered that I should not take the magnesium citrate I have been taking - citrates have something to do with msg or glutamate = argghh! And I've just stopped magnesium glycinate because I found out it was raising my blood pressure. So am going to magnesium chloride now - crossing my fingers!
     
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  18. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    That is a very high dose of vitamin C. This article mentions citrate and citric acid as being linked to MSG, so your vitamin C could very well have contributed to your headaches: https://migraine.com/blog/hidden-sources-dietary-triggers/ and this list I quoted earlier in this thread: http://www.truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html

    And your insomnia, unable to fall asleep and feeling wired until 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. sounds just how I feel when I accidentally ingest something related to MSG.
     
  19. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Thank you @Mary for posting about your experiences with MSG because I would never have learned about this possible connection.

    My sleep issues didn't start until I had started Dr Myhill's high dose Vitamin C protocol. She told me it would get rid of any Candida or bad bacteria I had and also kill SIBO. Well it did the exact opposite for me. All of these became a huge issue for me whereas before I started it I was only mildly affected plus I quickly developed those daily migraines.

    I haven't had more than 2000 mg vitamin C since Tuesday and I haven't needed any medication for migraine for nearly 72 hours which feels like a minor miracle. I also found out I couldn't tolerate any coconut products because they caused severe diahorea and possible aggravated the migraines too (could have just been the Vitamin C with the migraines though). Whereas I used to be able to tolerate organic whole milk just fine after all that has gone on I am now sensitive to that too!

    To think I paid £300 to be made way worse than when I started! Thankfully my gut is now settling down with some gentle herbs and Saccromyces Bollardi and L Plantarum but it will take longer for my adrenals to recover. Today was the first day I have felt slightly well for over 2 weeks.

    Pam
     
  20. Mary

    Mary Forum Support Assistant

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    @bertiedog - wow, that's rough - sorry to hear all that! I'm sorry also because Sarah Myhill is one of the few doctors who knows anything about ME/CFS and at least wants to help us.

    I wonder if the severe diarrhea could have been caused by the vitamin C also - because that's what high dose vitamin C can do, cause diarrhea.

    Coconut oil actually helped me with candida. It was very effective. Initially it caused a severe herx reaction so I had to go slowly with it, but gradually worked up to 2 tablespoons a day.

    Also low stomach acid has been linked to SIBO - low stomach acid allows the overgrowth of bacteria and many people with ME/CFS are deficient in stomach acid. I take betaine HCL with all meals that have protein, which is a bit hard to digest and of course fat. Fruit and salads are pretty easy to digest.

    I hope you recover quickly -
     
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