Every single time I eat in the morning symptoms get worse

[Justin30]

Have you tried cooking all food?

Fruits, vegetables, protein all cooked. This is part of the recomendations made in the SCD Diet for SIBO.

If you have POTS or a form of Dysautonomia do you drink plenty of water with electrolytes prior to eating? Do you take anything for POTS if you have it?

Have you removed all slow digesting food such as red meat, bacon, patatoes, pork, wheat and grains from your diet? This puts more demands on the amount of blood required in the GI track.

 

[cigana]

I don't have a solution, but I do have exactly the same problem as you.
I don't think it's related to SIBO or leaky gut. Anything triggers it (except liquids). It happens too quickly for it to be related to the gut per se, I think it's related to changes in the autonomic system when food is detected in your stomach.
I went for a year eating only one meal a day.
Like @Dufresne I found relief from all symptoms by avoiding mold (being in a pristine environment).

 

[mgk]

Do any of you with this problem have high blood sugar levels or insulin resistance? The fact that the symptoms go away when fasting makes me wonder whether it has something to do with the hormonal changes that occur during a fast, especially low insulin.

@Dufresne: What you said about feeling worse before even swallowing reminds me of the fact that the body releases insulin when it detects that food is on its way, even before absorption. I can't remember where I read it, but it had something to do with salivary amylase. I'll post a link if I find it. Of course, salivary amylase would only be relevant to starch, but maybe it's true for other nutrients as well.

I have the problem too and I notice the same thing: worse when I eat, better when I clear out my bowels, better when fasted. I'm not diabetic but there's definitely something wrong with my blood sugar levels. My fasting is high at 110-120 and my postprandials aren't great either.

 

[cigana]

Do any of you with this problem have high blood sugar levels or insulin resistance? The fact that the symptoms go away when fasting makes me wonder whether it has something to do with the hormonal changes that occur during a fast, especially low insulin.

I've had my blood sugar tested many times and it is always normal.

 

[mgk]

I've had my blood sugar tested many times and it is always normal.

Do you mean blood glucose or other markers like HbA1c, fasting insulin, glucose tolerance test? If you're talking about blood glucose: mine was in the normal range for years, albeit closer to the high end of the range but still normal.

I bought a glucose monitor and started tracking it more closely when another person with G6PD deficiency tipped me off that a lot of his problems were caused by poor blood sugar regulation. That's when I discovered that it was all over the place. Right after waking up, it's usually in the 110-120 range, then as the hours wear on, it falls to the normal range. I think this is why my numbers were normal for so many years: they were falling to the normal range by the time I got my blood drawn.

I can't do an HbA1c because of my blood conditions, but I did an oral glucose tolerance test with 75g glucose. When fasting it was at 93, 1hr at 195 (!), 2hr at 110. The mixed meal postprandials I kept track of at home were even worse because it wasn't coming down as quickly, rising to 170ish at 1hr and staying above 150 for hours after that.

If you suspect poor blood sugar regulation, I'd suggest doing an HbA1c or a glucose tolerance test. Blood glucose varies too much to be an accurate diagnostic in my opinion. It will only raise warning bells if you're lucky and have your blood drawn right after waking or when you already have a case of diabetes.

 

[cigana]

Do you mean blood glucose or other markers like HbA1c, fasting insulin, glucose tolerance test? If you're talking about blood glucose: mine was in the normal range for years, albeit closer to the high end of the range but still normal.

I meant blood glucose, tested fasting at the hospital and I have my own glucose test which I used to test throughout the day for a while.
Thanks for your suggestions re the other markers - something to think about!

 

[JaimeS]

I'm the same. Talk about a convincing diet -- feel crappy every time you eat and put off eating.

There are some things that don't make me feel awful, but they're few and far between. We were discussing those here, and ended up talking about The Perfect Health Diet, which does recommend fasting once a week as part of its regimen. (If we're healthy enough for that, of course!)

-J

 

[Dufresne]

I just finished watching the following Younger interview and I think there might be an explanation in there for this fasting/eating phenomenon. At around 30:00 he speaks of how microglia can become primed by higher leptin levels. But that the problem is not just a matter of leptin, but rather leptin and something else activating microglia together, eg leptin and lipopolysaccharide.

This jibes with my experience and explanation (detailed in earlier post) of how fasting (decreasing leptin levels) could significantly reduce or even eliminate symptoms, and then eating (increasing leptin) could trigger them. However, again, it's not just leptin, there obviously has to be another irritant. In my case it's mycotoxins (similar in inflammatory effect to LPS) and toxins and inflammation from TBD's (also similar in effect).

What I'd like to know is how soon after eating leptin levels begin to rise.

http://selfhacked.com/2016/03/29/dr...ch-on-cfs-neuroinflammation-pain-and-fatigue/

 

[JaimeS]

If our issue were high leptins, wouldn't we tend to be obese? Some of us are overweight, some of us are underweight, and some of us are average weight. Me = average weight, healthy for my height.

Or are you saying we're overly sensitive to leptins?

-J

 

[Dufresne]

If our issue were high leptins, wouldn't we tend to be obese? Some of us are overweight, some of us are underweight, and some of us are average weight. Me = average weight, healthy for my height.

Or are you saying we're overly sensitive to leptins?

-J

Leptin is not the problem. Younger has merely found it's level corresponds significantly to fatigue in those with ME/CFS: on days where leptin levels were higher, patients reported feeling worse. It's relative. I don't know if his work suggests those overweight, with higher levels would have more serious manifestations of the disease. I doubt this is the case.

Of course his working theory of ME/CFS is that microglia are somewhat agitated and that this leads to neuro-inflammation and many of the symptoms of the disease. That unfortunately leptin has an effect on microglia that reduces its activation threshold and/or amplifies their inflammatory activity. You'll have to watch the video or read some of his interviews for how he describes it, but that's the gist of it.

The real problem is what irritant we have that healthy people don't. Let's say mycotoxins, LPS, or some kind of infection; anything that microglia would respond to. However leptin can turn up the volume and increase the sensitivity of microglia. Therefore one could notice an exacerbation in symptoms after a meal. And seeing as fasting causes leptin levels to decrease one might see an improvement in such symptoms when they don't eat, as many here seem to.

Leptin levels and leptin sensitivity can be influenced by a number of things. Two off the top of my head are circadian rhythm and diet. Maybe this is one of the reasons many of us do better on a low-carb diet. Certainly sleep never hurt any of us with this disease.

 

[mgk]

Leptin responds way too slowly to be related from the research I've looked at. For example, take a look at the following chart from this study:

It's not mentioned on the chart but the text says that the fast was broken at 0900 on day 2. Even 4 hours after refeeding (the 1300 point), it's still around 60% lower than baseline, and takes 24 hours to get back up to normal. When I did a 36 hour fast, my symptoms came back within 30 minutes of breaking it. There's always the possibility that our leptin levels are out of whack and don't compare to that of healthy people though...

 

[Dufresne]

Thanks for the info. I was somewhat doubtful about leptin being the culprit, as symptoms return so quickly after eating.

Does anybody have any ideas about how the act of eating could ignite immunity not related to the food itself?

 

[JaimeS]

Thanks for the info. I was somewhat doubtful about leptin being the culprit, as symptoms return so quickly after eating.

Does anybody have any ideas about how the act of eating could ignite immunity not related to the food itself?

That's a really good question. For people with low blood volume and/or poor circulation, the diversion of blood flow to the gut could be an issue in and of itself.

Doppler utrasonography has made it possible to record blood flow to the digestive tract (the superior mesenteric artery) directly and continuously in unanaesthetized, healthy humans. Several research groups have demonstrated how blood flow to the tract increases gradually and markedly after a meal, and more so after a big meal than after a small one. The increase in blood flow reaches its maximum after 20-40 minutes and lasts for 1.5-2 hours. In the postprandial period there is a parallel and similar increase in cardiac output; the meal thus imposes an increased work load on the heart.

from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10095388

So, if after eating you simply feel more exhausted, have a greater number of hypoperfusion-ish symptoms and don't necessarily experience bloating or gas or immune-type reactions, PWME's usual blood flow issues might be the culprit...

-J

 

[Dufresne]

That's a really good question. For people with low blood volume and/or poor circulation, the diversion of blood flow to the gut could be an issue in and of itself.

from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10095388

So, if after eating you simply feel more exhausted, have a greater number of hypoperfusion-ish symptoms and don't necessarily experience bloating or gas or immune-type reactions, PWME's usual blood flow issues might be the culprit...

-J

I can get the onset of extreme fatigue anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes following a meal. This time frame fits with the blood shunt study above. I never had much doubt it was a circulatory issue as vasodilators like garlic, arginine, and magnesium make this problem worse; while vasoconstrictors (NRI's) resolve the issue. Though this is unrelated to the immunological flare that occurs shortly after eating.

 

[Dufresne]

Another trick I’ve used to diminish symptoms when in a pinch was keeping my eyes closed. If I kept them closed during a long car ride my EMF sensitivity would be cut by at least half. My fasciculations would also be reduced. In fact even now when I wake and am just lying in bed with my eyes closed I notice my calves twitching less. But as soon as I open my eyes they start dancing. Both fasting and keeping eyes closed improved the same symptoms, only to differing degrees. (Again these symptoms are really the result of toxins and pathogens.)

Perhaps this relates to what those with severe ME/CFS often experience with sensory over-stimulation/excitotoxicity. Interestingly these people often have terrible problems eating, usually due to food sensitivities. I’ve significant trouble with this, myself.

I believe there’s a sort of neuro and immune hypersensitivity at play here; a nasty merry-go-round of oxidative stress leading to sensitivities and the sensitivities leading to more oxidative stress. In my case I’ve no doubt it’s perpetuated by pathogens.

 

[JaimeS]

My fasciculations would also be reduced. In fact even now when I wake and am just lying in bed with my eyes closed I notice my calves twitching less. But as soon as I open my eyes they start dancing. Both fasting and keeping eyes closed improved the same symptoms, only to differing degrees. (Again these symptoms are really the result of toxins and pathogens.)

Or the energetic attempt to focus. The more exhausted I am, the harder it is to focus my gaze. When I first took a new form of B12, my eyesight sharpened dramatically. This was not a symptom I was keen to share with others (because WHAT.) until I read in Freddd's protocol that this is considered standard. The world gets brighter and steadier, the senses sharpen. So. Weird.

There are things we don't think of as requiring effort that do, until we become ill. Keeping your gaze focused on the right thing must actually utilize more energy than we suppose.

Perhaps this relates to what those with severe ME/CFS often experience with sensory over-stimulation/excitotoxicity.

It does seem easier for us to become overstimulated. Glutamate excitotoxicity maybe?

I do feel pathogens are the primum mobile, though.

-J

 

[knackers323]

all the same here. feel better when dont eat. obviously have to eat so the best diet is veggies and meat, paleo. after few weeks need to add some carbs.

occasionly feel better after using my bowels. the toxic poisoned fatigue feeling improves instantly.

for such a quick response what could the cause be? probably not a bacterial dybiosis problem but who knows.

dont always notice the effect though.

weirdly as others have also said i feel better with less sleep. begin to feel worse in a natural sleep deprived way but the cfs exhausion feeling improves.

what the hell is this illness

 

[Elph68]

I have worked out that after any sort of meal - it doesnt matter what kind of meal - it can be absolutley anything - my brain fog and M.E. and fatigue will get worse. Every morning i generally wake up with a better clarity of mind - low energy - but feeling okay, if i starve myself this feeling will last until the moment i eat. Ive tested myself for SIBO which i dont have. I do have leaky gut but ive tried everything I can to tackle it and it wont go

Does anyone have any ideas? or has anyone experienced the same thing and managed to solve it? Ive been pulsing ABX and probiotics with KDM but its not helping

Eating food raises the blood glucose levels and provides food that bacteria such as staph and strep can turn into biofilm production .... this is a normal byproduct of metabolism .... staph in particul causes an activation of the immune system when it converts glucose into staph slime ..... this over reaction of the immune system to staph slime is well documented in the literature .... an overactive immune system is a common link in CFS .... eating food increases blood glucose levels which leads to an increase in staph slime which leads to an over reaction in the immune system which leads to symptoms ..... just my 2 cents .....

 

[Jwarrior77]

Any updates to any of this or what helps? I have the exact symptoms/presentation and more that probably won't make sense if I describe it. It's absolute hell. I think this is from the liver/gallbladder not detoxing/excreting bile properly along with some sort of brain/vagus nerve agitation when you begin eating something. Have any of you found anything that helps?