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Economist Article: Blood Simple?

A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
I am concerned that we may be a little too enthusiastic in our rebuttal of Dr. Mead's opinion. While I agree with 90% of what yall have brought up--healer, heal thyself!--I don't think we should assume that we know what Dr. Naviaux would (will?) find if/when he contrasts ME/CFS, dauer, and PTSD--as he apparently feels needs to be done. Dr. Mead certainly seems to think she knows what the outcome will be, and it is one more problem with her argument. But...lets not emulate her.

ME/CFS was left to the psych world for the last 30 years. PACE and things like the Lightning Process were the best they could come up with. It's a null field. A rejection of psychological approaches is not based on prejudice, it's the only responsible course of action.

These fantastic claims about curing ME/CFS with psychotherapy are not credible without supporting evidence. Indeed, history shows that claims like these are made for any disease where the biological basis is not understood, and biologically based treatment isn't yet available.
 

Chrisb

Senior Member
Messages
1,051
I thought it of interest that Dr Mead claims only to have been studying the effects of traumatic life events etc on chronic fatigue. There is no indication that she has studied such effects even on those with CFS, under any criteria.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
I don't think I was too harsh at all. Specifically, I suggested that GOOD talk therapy has a place in chronic illness -- not because it will cure anybody, but because having chronic illness is f$(*$)(# stressful.

The issue isn't that she's a psychotherapist. The issue is that she's implying that there are therapies based totally on the mind that can cure ME/CFS. And posting them on an article about biomedical research, where desperate patients will read her comment. And that she's offering her services to cure ME through these therapies in a clearly commercial way, since she's got a book in the works.

No: a thousand times no.
 

aaron_c

Senior Member
Messages
691
Specifically, I suggested that GOOD talk therapy has a place in chronic illness -- not because it will cure anybody, but because having chronic illness is f$(*$)(# stressful.

The issue isn't that she's a psychotherapist. The issue is that she's implying that there are therapies based totally on the mind that can cure ME/CFS. And posting them on an article about biomedical research, where desperate patients will read her comment.

I agree with this entirely. And I agree that sinking money into research on any kind of talk therapy seems likely to be a waste of money. But if Dr. Naviaux feels that ME/CFS should be compared to PTSD before he draws any conclusions, I think that, at least in communicating our argument to a wider audience, we should wait as well. I think arguing that Dr. Mead has overreached and is offering a cure when she can't even cure herself is a much better line of argument than saying that we know that there will be no similarities between trauma response and dauer/ME/CFS. After all, Dr. Naviaux's study has made many of us excited that perhaps our illness is caused by some switch being kept on that should have been turned off--and that is exactly the description that somatic psychotherapists use when describing trauma.

As should be obvious from my prior comment I don't think we will find the mechanism to be the same, but it is interesting that dauer/ME/CFS affects many of the same pathways that the cell danger response (associated with PTSD) does, just in the opposite direction. Which is all to day that there is a chance that we will have some little piece to learn from the science of trauma--although most probably not in the way that most psychotherapists think.

I understand I'm walking a fine line here, and I see now that many of us will prefer to see my point as too fine a distinction to matter.

The issue is ... that she's offering her services to cure ME through these therapies in a clearly commercial way, since she's got a book in the works.

I see your point, and appreciate the time you took to point it out to me. Without the book, there would be no commercial interest.

As I said before, I agree with 90% (95% now :) ) of what has been said. And @JaimeS in particular I appreciate your witty and informative posts both on PR and in response to many ignorant comments elsewhere.

This is awkward because PR is home for many of us. Yet we have access to none of the tools that normal friendships have to reaffirm connection (or tolerance) following a disagreement. I hope yall will accept my criticism in the spirit it was meant and that PR will continue to be a place where respectful disagreements can exist.

Yall are my second or third family. And if you're gotten this far, thanks for hearing me out.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
I think arguing that Dr. Mead has overreached and is offering a cure when she can't even cure herself is a much better line of argument than saying that we know that there will be no similarities between trauma response and dauer/ME/CFS.

I did say that, tho.

I understand I'm walking a fine line here, and I see now that many of us will prefer to see my point as too fine a distinction to matter.

"Prefer to see" or believe it's the case, lol? But seriously, I see what you mean. And certainly there are a few physicians and researchers well-respected by patients who study trauma as well as ME/CFS (e.g. Klimas).

As I said before, I agree with 90% (95% now :) ) of what has been said. And @JaimeS in particular I appreciate your witty and informative posts both on PR and in response to many ignorant comments elsewhere.

This is awkward because PR is home for many of us. Yet we have access to none of the tools that normal friendships have to reaffirm connection (or tolerance) following a disagreement. I hope yall will accept my criticism in the spirit it was meant and that PR will continue to be a place where respectful disagreements can exist.

Yall are my second or third family. And if you're gotten this far, thanks for hearing me out.

:hug::hug::hug:

Thank you for this. I swear, this place keeps me grounded sometimes. Especially working at #MEAction -- you would not believe the comments I have to delete some days. That I can come here and debate together without rancor means a lot to me.

-J
 

aaron_c

Senior Member
Messages
691
I did say that, tho.
I know that, and you said it well. As I have said before, I like almost all of what your wrote in this instance. I hope you won't read my criticism of one specific point as targeted more broadly at the rest of the response. In this case I was trying to say that I thought that those points (that you made) alone would have been more than sufficient to discredit her viewpoint.

"Prefer to see" or believe it's the case, lol?
You are right: "Believe it is the case." The argument is ultimately subjective. My bad. :)

I just want to confirm that, after I've had a disagreement with someone on here, I carry a grudge to the day I die. :)
I laughed quite a bit reading this one. I have been warned!

Thank you @worldbackwards and @JaimeS. Smileyhug indeed. :hug:

On another note, Dr. Mead has responded to JaimeS. In part:

I agree with Jaime on many points. Will power, good habits, meditation and other tenets of mind body holism and approaches aimed at stress reduction are rarely sufficient to cure chronic disease and it is insulting to suggest that those of us with a chronic illness are sick because we aren’t trying hard enough, have serious personality flaws or are “hysterical.”

...

I do indeed have a book about the connection between chronic illness and trauma. Like everything else on my site, it’s free.

She defends the argument that trauma is a risk factor for ME/CFS. I see there is at least one study that agrees with her...the only problem I can find with the study is that they used CDC definition and didn't exclude for depression. Hopefully I'll have some time to look at this later today.

On a more reflective note, I have been thinking about this whole thing and I think my viewpoint has been shaped by conversations with a lawyer I know. They are the kind of person whose viewpoint can be changed with a well-reasoned argument, but the instant I enter grey areas without acknowledging the potentially valid counterarguments I lose all credibility in their eyes because I overstated my case, and they then wonder what else I have exaggerated.

But I do know that public discourse ranges all the way from inchoate screaming to thoroughly referenced tomes that only a handful ever read--and that those and every strategy in between work to convince some section of the populace.

I'm not making a point here, just saying "oh!" to myself.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
She defends the argument that trauma is a risk factor for ME/CFS. I see there is at least one study that agrees with her...the only problem I can find with the study is that they used CDC definition and didn't exclude for depression.
It's only been shown in poorly defined patients in retrospective studies. There was a large prospective study done at some point, which pretty well trumps the crappy ones.

An integral part of science is not cherry picking the results which suit their arguments.