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Dr. Says Lyme disease does not exist

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
I am not a huge fan of the sexual transmission debate, in part because of some of what Kina has alluded to. I also personally felt the press release had a couple lines that bordered on sensationalism.

I DO think some serious additional research should be thrown that way, since it does seem possible that sexual transmission can occur, but perhaps not very often.

Placental transmission would be a distinct issue, imo.

Kina, the epidemiology of Lyme is a house of cards. To support the epidemiology, one would have to embrace the 2T. Not even some of the architects of the next Guidelines appear willing to do that unconditionally, as evidenced by the recent Lantos et al study that claimed 80% of 2T positives in some areas of NC might be false positives because, well, it's North Carolina, for goodness sake, so there you go.
 
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kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
I don't see anywhere in the abstract of this study where they actually researched 'sexual transmission'. They researched the presence or absence of b burgdorferi in bodily fluids -- they did nothing to see if the bacteria was transferred to a fetus.

The abstract did not say that Lyme disease is sexually transmitted, it said it could be. That's very irresponsible when you aren't actually researching sexual transmission.

Viability does not equal infectivity or virulence and they did nothing to show this.

I think at this point in time, with evidence that shows it is not sexually transmitted, it is irresponsible to make a claim about sexual transmission especially when the study didn't even research sexual transmission.

Kina could you show me..us...the evidence that Lyme is not sexually transmitted ever. instead of just saying that.
 
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kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
I have watched 'Under our Skin' -- I don't remember the baby -- did they do a test on the baby and mother to show they both had active lyme. I found the movie to be extremely one-sided. I like documentaries that discuss both sides.

From what I have read, there seems to be research on pregnant mice who are inoculated and shown to be positive -- the offspring were not positive. This is from multiple studies. The epidemiology for lyme disease does not support the hypothesis that lyme can be sexually transmitted. Please, instead of saying "I have heard", why not produce the research so we can discuss it.

Heres some more Lyme Disease research on fetal death and transmission transplacentially
http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/ly...-fetal-pregnancies-death-lyme-studiesarticles
 

kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
I am not a huge fan of the sexual transmission debate, in part because of some of what Kina has alluded to. I also personally felt the press release had a couple lines that bordered on sensationalism.

I DO think some serious additional research should be thrown that way, since it does seem possible that sexual transmission can occur, but perhaps not very often.

Placental transmission would be a distinct issue, imo.

Kina, the epidemiology of Lyme is a house of cards. To support the epidemiology, one would have to embrace the 2T. Not even some of the architects of the next Guidelines appear willing to do that unconditionally, as evidenced by the recent Lantos et al study that claimed 80% of 2T positives in some areas of NC might be false positives because, well, it's North Carolina, for goodness sake, so there you go.
Hey Duncan,
The topic of 2t testing, so much reliance on the testing that is proven to be completely inaccurate (I already posted the plos one paper multiple times,that after 27 weeks treated monkeys ,Elisa 100% inaccurate) .This has huge implications to show a plosable reason why so many people are missed. No one would automatically be tested for Lyme just for being born ,which could make an unknown disease living in there body go a long period of time before becoming active or chronic.By the evidence of that study, the Elisa would most likely come up Neg. It was only more accurate on people that where just bitten.Also the topic of irresponsible practice in research or medicine makes me think of the IDSA. They make one irresponsible propagandized statement after another. Example: Talking about people claiming to be sick with Lyme: Quote.Wormser
"They didn't have anything. Not a positive test, a bulls eye rash... nothing. Those people have been referred to as having post Lyme symptoms,or post Lyme syndrome".
Quote: Shapiro,"There has never been a study showing Transmission Trans placentialy"...Well, I just posted a bunch.

1#You don't need a bulls eye rash. 2# The CDC even says Lyme is a clinical diagnoses. 3# (have been referred to) I don't even know what that means. Who referred ??? That certainly isn't referencing research data. That's the IDSA Their supposed to be the top of the food chain, Helping us. There is more than 100 symptoms ,co infections, CD-57 etc. that's not nothing, and for the IDSA to just brush it off and say hundreds of thousands of people are DEPRESSED.
So to me, Transmission trans placentialy ,just wouldn't be noticed like syphilis. I just posted multiple papers showing research, and I'm finding many more.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Nods.

I think it was MacDonald also who documented fetal bb infections upon autopsy, but I could be wrong.
 

kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
Absolutely. He is a pathologist and a career Alzheimer's / Lyme researcher, And does a lot Pathology that others would just brush off, but there is many more,believe it or not even Reumatologist -Alan Steere has been sited in research which is bizarre because he has been one of the biggest deniers of Chronic Lyme
 

kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
I have watched 'Under our Skin' -- I don't remember the baby -- did they do a test on the baby and mother to show they both had active lyme. I found the movie to be extremely one-sided. I like documentaries that discuss both sides.

From what I have read, there seems to be research on pregnant mice who are inoculated and shown to be positive -- the offspring were not positive. This is from multiple studies. The epidemiology for lyme disease does not support the hypothesis that lyme can be sexually transmitted. Please, instead of saying "I have heard", why not produce the research so we can discuss it.
A little more info: The National Institute Of Health.
If you are pregnant, be especially careful to avoid ticks in Lyme Disease areas ,because you can pass on the infection to your unborn child.
http://www.stopthelymelies.com/lyme-disease-101/transmission-controversies
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
Watch under our skin. they show the Baby being born with Lyme.
I will more carefully read the article when I got time,but I have heard of many Doctors and researchers saying their is multiple studies showing transmission transplacentialy , and fetal death,
of fetuses borne dead infected with Borrellia.
Here's one just to get started
http://teratology.org/updates/64pg276.pdf

Sorry to be confusing. Sexual transmission and placental transmission are two distinct things. If a pregnant woman becomes infected with some bacteria or some viruses during pregnancy, the chances are quite high that the infection can be transferred to the fetus eg,

This kind of transmission is much different than sexual transmission. I do not doubt that a mother getting infected during pregnancy can affect the fetus.

Kina could you show me..us...the evidence that Lyme is not sexually transmitted ever. instead of just saying that.

All I can do is present what evidence is available on the Internet. Thankfully, somebody has written some blog articles regarding sexual transmission of Lyme which entailed going through the research .i.e, not anecdotal.

http://campother.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/part-1-sexual-transmission-of-lyme.html
http://campother.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/part-2-sexual-transmission-of-lyme.html
http://campother.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/part-3-sexual-transmission-of-lyme.html


A little more info: The National Institute Of Health.
If you are pregnant, be especially careful to avoid ticks in Lyme Disease areas ,because you can pass on the infection to your unborn child.
http://www.stopthelymelies.com/lyme-disease-101/transmission-controversies

I am not disputing that.

certainly in Australia whole families are being diagnosed with Lyme Disease.
http://www.pr.com/press-release/634666
I know this is just a pres release but it does cover some of the background
..
Sexual transmission is possible with HIV so why not Lyme??

HIV is a virus. A totally different thing.
 

kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
I don't see anywhere in the abstract of this study where they actually researched 'sexual transmission'. They researched the presence or absence of b burgdorferi in bodily fluids -- they did nothing to see if the bacteria was transferred to a fetus.

The abstract did not say that Lyme disease is sexually transmitted, it said it could be. That's very irresponsible when you aren't actually researching sexual transmission.

Viability does not equal infectivity or virulence and they did nothing to show this.

I think at this point in time, with evidence that shows it is not sexually transmitted, it is irresponsible to make a claim about sexual transmission especially when the study didn't even research sexual transmission.

So the study says research suggests that Lyme disease(not proves) that Lyme disease can be sexually transmitted. I would interpret the word suggests as, not an absolute ,I don't want that to be true, My father was infected with Lyme disease, Not my mother, she got sick after having three children that were symptomatic since birth. That is not a double blind study, but ,When a baby is born with Lyme disease, it came from either the mother or the father.
The study douse talk about mothers and fathers being infected with the same strain,(many Lyme Doctors see this every day) and takes a very detailed look at how long the bacteria lives in bodily fluid, It would stand up in Biology that a corkscrew bacteria that can drive its self into nerves, bones,tendons and into or through the BB Barrier, placental barrier and get into any part of the body including the brain,could very realistically pass into another human, especially in a sexual circumstance,from man to woman,or vice versa.
The word Tropisms in medicine referring to pathogens that want to do damage to certain parts of the body ,like Hep-c -liver or syphilis entire body ,but causes genital outbreaks.
Lyme, a close cousin isn't so obvious, in any aspect of the human infection as Treponema. Lyme goes to the Brain and causes some types of Alzheimer's (Alan Mac Donald 101). It also can cause damage to every system of the body.
Treponema causes general paresis (a carbon copy of Alzheimer's).
It is not a stretch, in any sense ,that it could be passed on the same way.
Human experience, has a place in medicine, and double blind ,controlled studies can be engineered to get the outcome
they are interested in defending. A good example of that is Embers vs Klempner.
The IDSA and the CDC have done a great propaganda campaign. They have the majority of the medical field (sometimes arrogantly believing their information ,even though it has been proven to be false.
Lyme is not instantly chronic and obvious ,like Treponema. So doctors aren't looking for it.
The two tier testing is a joke. and doctors are pre programmed to brush it off. The CDC numbers are all over the place,and in the Western Blot some of the numbers are very specific and don't cross react, but you still need 5 bands positive and a pos Elisa to be acknowledged as being positive by standard testing,
Soo!!! My opinion based on truth and the bigger picture, Its not far fetched to say many things are possible with this disease.
 
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kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
I don't see anywhere in the abstract of this study where they actually researched 'sexual transmission'. They researched the presence or absence of b burgdorferi in bodily fluids -- they did nothing to see if the bacteria was transferred to a fetus.

The abstract did not say that Lyme disease is sexually transmitted, it said it could be. That's very irresponsible when you aren't actually researching sexual transmission.

Viability does not equal infectivity or virulence and they did nothing to show this.

I think at this point in time, with evidence that shows it is not sexually transmitted, it is irresponsible to make a claim about sexual transmission especially when the study didn't even research sexual transmission.
 

kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
Kina I took a look at the pages you supplied. One thing that did catch my attention is that it named different bodily fluids that DNA was never found in, breast milk, other without getting graphic. That is completely contradictory to the findings of the research paper I supplied. witch doesn't talk about finding DNA but actual spirochetes.
 

GcMAF Australia

Senior Member
Messages
1,027
Maybe the deniers could speak to those families who are suffering instead of blindly following the dogma, mayvbe talk to Lyme sufferers and find out what is the real experience on the ground. Whole families are affected by Lyme.
300,000 official positive diagnosis every year, up from the purported 30,000 per year.
These are CDC figures. Maybe 1 in 1000 Americans infected per year.
I believe that is more than the number shot and killed
 

kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
Maybe the deniers could speak to those families who are suffering instead of blindly following the dogma, mayvbe talk to Lyme sufferers and find out what is the real experience on the ground. Whole families are affected by Lyme.
300,000 official positive diagnosis every year, up from the purported 30,000 per year.
These are CDC figures. Maybe 1 in 1000 Americans infected per year.
I believe that is more than the number shot and killed

Just, think about it, they cultured live spirochete bacteria in vaginal secretions in 100% of women diagnosed with Lyme and men 50% off the time. Would you be willing to take your chances knowing this.I think it would be very irresponsible to not tell this to people so they could make their own choice. Dr Striker goes on to say, more work needs to be done.
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
Maybe the deniers could speak to those families who are suffering instead of blindly following the dogma, mayvbe talk to Lyme sufferers and find out what is the real experience on the ground. Whole families are affected by Lyme.
300,000 official positive diagnosis every year, up from the purported 30,000 per year.
These are CDC figures. Maybe 1 in 1000 Americans infected per year.
I believe that is more than the number shot and killed

Yes but if a virus can be transmitted why not a intracellular bacteria? or an extracellular bacteria!! ??
That is my point

HIV is 90 percent transmitted by sexual contact. Do you not remember HIV when it was first appeared on the scene. One patient, patient zero to 39 million dead due to a sexually transmitted disease. If the bacteria was sexually transmitted I think there would be a preponderance of science that would say so. But there isn't, so rather than say the science supports that lyme is not sexually transmitted (at this point in time), you resort to calling people deniers and blindly following dogma. I will clarify my comment: at this point in time scientific research does not support the hypothesis that lyme is sexually transmitted.

There are 36 species of borrelia and not all of them cause lyme disease. Leptospirosis is also caused by a spirochete and it's not sexually transmitted.

Just, think about it, they cultured live spirochete bacteria in vaginal secretions in 100% of women diagnosed with Lyme and men 50% off the time. Would you be willing to take your chances knowing this.I think it would be very irresponsible to not tell this to people so they could make their own choice. Dr Striker goes on to say, more work needs to be done.


https://www.survivingmold.com/community/health-hype-on-sexually-transmitted-lyme-disease

While they could be congratulated for establishing a preliminary finding on the matter in three patients, they failed to include key caveats, such as:

1. No peer-reviewed studies in rodents or other mammals have ever found credible evidence to show that infectious Lyme spirochetes are sexually transmitted.

2. We don't know how inoculation from an infected tick would compare to passive transmission via intimate contact. But we’re sure that intimate contact would include no tick salivary proteins to protect sexually transmitted spirochetes from the immune system of their new host. For Borrelia species, the immune evasion advantages of tick salivary proteins are well documented.

3. It is a law of microbiology that viability does not equal infectivity or virulence. If it’s possible to transmit viable Lyme spirochetes via intimate contact, perhaps spirochetes transmitted this way might only be able to cause infection in a host with a serious form of immune compromise.

4. If sexual transmission of Lyme disease were common, the prevalence of Lyme disease would be orders of magnitude higher than it already is, based on known transmission by blood-sucking arthropod vectors, yet the epidemiological data on Lyme disease do not support the idea of “sexually transmitted disease.”
 

kungfudao

Senior Member
Messages
137
Location
Los Angeles
HIV is 90 percent transmitted by sexual contact. Do you not remember HIV when it was first appeared on the scene. One patient, patient zero to 39 million dead due to a sexually transmitted disease. If the bacteria was sexually transmitted I think there would be a preponderance of science that would say so. But there isn't, so rather than say the science supports that lyme is not sexually transmitted (at this point in time), you resort to calling people deniers and blindly following dogma. I will clarify my comment: at this point in time scientific research does not support the hypothesis that lyme is sexually transmitted.

There are 36 species of borrelia and not all of them cause lyme disease. Leptospirosis is also caused by a spirochete and it's not sexually transmitted.




https://www.survivingmold.com/community/health-hype-on-sexually-transmitted-lyme-disease
You are correct in saying, it has not been proven definitively. It also hasn't definitively been unproven,
Being the kind of bacteria (spirochete),It being found in bodily fluids, Breast milk (which has shown transmission) a long history of patient and Doctor reports, The inconsistency of the IDSA CDC, and also the published research, especially the findings that have been presented(live Borrelia Burgdorferi in sexual body fluids). I think the outcome of this research to be a step forward,and we should be on high alert.
 
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I got Lyme disease, anaplasmosis, babesia, chlamydia pneumoniae from my boyfriend and started to be ill after 1-2 weeks of our relationship. I have had even the same bands in WB tests that he has (Igenex). He has all this infections over 20 years. I had been in a hell after 2.5 months until beginning of a treatment. We kissed and had safe sex. I am new in the USA, and I was a resident of a megalopolis in Europe. I have never had this symptoms in my life before this relationship, I was checked for American types of infections, I have never had a tick bite, I spend my life studying and working indoors, I have not had pets. So, yes, it is possible to transmit this infections through saliva and/or safe sex. Maybe our case will be helpful to some people. Also, one my Lyme doctor said that she had a couple with the same situation. He was an American, she was from Japan. She got Lyme disease plus others from him.