Dr. Rind's latest revelations about "adrenal fatigue"

[heapsreal]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying "adrenal fatigue" dosen't exist. I'm just saying your adrenal glands don't get fatigued themselves. Rather, they are doing whatever they are told to do or not do, unless it is primary disfunction, i.e. Addison's.

It's clear that adrenal fatigue symptoms exist, but if the adrenal glands were able to get fatigued, then diseases like Cushing's Syndrome could not exist because eventually the adrenal glands would were out from producing so much cortisol.

yes, apparently the PVN or the paraventricular nuclues, is a part of the brain which controls adrenal function or release/supresses cortisol function is involved in what we call adrenal fatigue. Im guessing its dysfunctions is either a possible injury to the PVN or maybe its some type of fuse where it goes off as a protective mechanism but we somehow cant switch the power back on, thats just a guess though. Issues can still happen with the adrenal glands themselves but apparently its more likely the dysfunction of the PVN that causes low cortisol or irregular cortisol cycle.

Im guess this adrenal dysfunction can occur on its own, maybe a burn out type situation and probably also occurs in many chronic conditions. In cfs/me i think its probably a down stream secondary issue, many of us test low in cortisol and or dhea, so its a common abnormality found through testing?

 

[Sherpa]

@drob31 I understand what you are saying. I agree with you - I don't subscribe to the internet forum diagnosis of "one tired little gland" as causing all the havoc.

I am describing "adrenal fatigue syndrome" AFS - a complex system of chronic stress-induced HPA axis imbalances and deadlocked biological malfunctions that have been well documented and described by Dr. Michael Lam. His excellent book describes the progression of the syndrome, the multiple layers of dysfunction and the resulting nutritional imbalances, in a way that should prove satisfyingly informative to any open-minded doctor or sufferer wanting to understand what AFS is.. and what AFS is not.

 

[ukxmrv]

There were no studies to prove CFS was a "real" condition until relatively very recently. A significant percentage of medical doctors probably still don't think it is a 'real' condition. But people have been suffering from it for ages. It doesn't mean their agony is made up.

Those who live in glass houses (CFS) shouldn't be so quick or judgmental to throw stones at people suffering from other chronic, but not well understood, conditions.

I think you need to read more medical journals. There is research going back to the dawn of CFS including several criteria plus there was a body of research into ME before that. There were codes in the WHO ISD.

and what does "adrenal fatigue" have, any classifications? any international criteria? any research at all?

People with ME and CFS are exactly the ones who should be questioning these ideas. We are used to having flimsy, non-defined things like "functional somatic syndromes" thrown at us. Adrenal Fatigue could be another red herring and it doesn't benefit people if there is nothing there. I've spent 30 years having books recommenced to me on ideas that never amounted to more than a fringe belief.

Hopefully that will change over time for your symptoms and the cause. We can all hope for more research and certainty.

 

[drob31]

One thing that really made me think was when Dr. Rinds assistant (former astrophysicist, don't ask), mentioned that while I went through a few traumatic events, and this was 4 months ago, that people come back from war and don't have adrenal fatigue. That sort of put it into perspective.

 

[Ema]

there’s no persuasive data to demonstrate that blood or saliva tests provide any meaningful information, or are correlated with any underlying pathology.

Adrenal fatigue shouldn’t be confused with adrenal insufficiency, a legitimate medical condition that can be diagnosed with laboratory tests and has a defined symptomatology. Addison’s diseasecauses primary adrenal insufficiency and usually has an autoimmune cause

The first mistake is to treat data and not patients.

Pathology always exists on a continuum. To say that it doesn't in the case of adrenal dysfunction is ludicrous. Adrenals don't typically function perfectly one day and then realize when they have passed some arbitrary lab cutoff the next. The dysfunction is progressive and doctors should recognize the spectrum just as they do with the pancreas/diabetes. The warning signs are there many years in advance.

A leading cause of Addison's for many years throughout recent history was actually infection. Cytomegalovirus in particular is known to cause AI and many of us have chronic CMV infections. There's no reason to think that other infectious processes wouldn't similarly affect the adrenals.

 

[Beyond]

Thats a good point, however I stay on a neutral ground and say that both scenarios are possible: you can get "adrenally fatigued" via chronic stress and also you can have something that is causing adrenal fatigue such as lyme. Scientists call this first scenario "depression" and it is a routinely studied phenomenon, such as the "chronic stress model of mice", this is, permanent malfunction of a couple of glands and organs as a result of chronic stress (they torture the animal said with all honesty). Interestingly enough they pretend emotional depression which is a very different thing is the same as this "physiological depression" which I no doubt identify with "adrenal fatigue".

For instance, high cortisol is a hallmark of "major depression" in humans. It is all very complex, but I wonder how many of these people have low serum DHEA, pregnenolone and progesterone and low saliva cortisol (that means adrenal fatigue 100% sure, I have all of these sadly).

 

[bertiedog]

With regard to the interesting comments above I was wondering about burnout. Wouldn't this definitely contribute to underfunctioning adrenals if it had been going on for many years from a variety of causes? If the adrenals weren't functioning well then it would impact the thyroid too so one would then get a double whammy and have all sorts of problems (not necessarily ME/CFS though).

Pam

 

[South]

@drob31 So drob31, can we ask what Dr. Rind's advice was in your case...or if you'd rather not discuss your own case, do you know what his advice is to many of his other patients who come in with adrenal symptoms? Test for pathogens and then use products to kill those pathogens?

Does he have any insight into doing such testing and pathogen treatment that other doctors don't have, is something I wonder.

 

[South]

Since Dr. Rind was adult enough to admit verbally that he changed his opinion on something he'd previously publicly published, is he also adult enough to change the content of his website? I just looked, and his website's adrenal page still only discusses supplements for sale like glandulars, vitamin C, etc, and makes no mention of testing for infections as a way to heal the adrenals. I hope he doesn't have a financial interest in Dove brand of supplements featured on his website.

I'm going to be a negative Nelly here. I don't like doctors who won't admit when they are wrong, in full. His adrenal page still states "Providing the body with proper support in the form of vitamin supplements can significantly decrease, if not completely eliminate, low metabolic energy and its symptoms.".

 

[drob31]

@drob31 So drob31, can we ask what Dr. Rind's advice was in your case...or if you'd rather not discuss your own case, do you know what his advice is to many of his other patients who come in with adrenal symptoms? Test for pathogens and then use products to kill those pathogens?

Does he have any insight into doing such testing and pathogen treatment that other doctors don't have, is something I wonder.

He has nothing. I no longer see him. He said I had lyme with no testing, and based it on treating it empirically.

 

[aquaster]

I posted another thread about my visit with Dr. Bruce Rind the other day, however I wanted to shed light on his latest thought processes when it comes to treating thyroid/adrenal dysfunction, and perhaps diagnoses of CFS like issues.

You may have seen Dr. Rind's temperature graphs, they are all over the place, and also his website has a plethora of information about metabolic issues, including adrenal and thyroid issues:

http://www.drrind.com/

Some of his work is pretty well known when it comes to treating thyroid and adrenal issues. However, it seems as Dr. Rind's opinions of these things has evolved over the years. He's not the same Dr. Rind that you read about on his website. Given my lab work, which for the most part is within normal boundaries (low t3, anomalous cortisol rhythm) Dr. Rind doesn't look to give me thyroid meds for my thyroid or even support my adrenals with glandulars. Rather, he states that I have hypothyroid symptoms possibly because my adrenal glands are malfunctioning (nothing new), and that is not solved by giving me a supplement, rather he believes something is taxing the adrenal gland, such as a deficiency, toxicity, or infection (bacteria, virus, auto immune reaction). He thought my adrenals were being taxed because of mold or lyme. I'm investigating this now, but it makes a very important distinction:

Your adrenal glands don't get fatigued. They're dysfunctioning for a reason. Solve the mystery and everything is healed. It flys in the face of what countless ND Dr.s are saying about treating adrenal fatigue and it taking 2-3 years to heal. Just be patient for a couple of years, sleep 10 hours a night, never drink caffeine, never stay up late, never go out partying, never stray off your diet, take 100 supplements produced by a company that I make money from, then in 3 years, you'll be healed.

So according to this thought process: There is no such thing as adrenal fatigue, coming from one of the original "adrenal fatigue" doctors.


I'm not saying I agree with him, but based on his analysis of me, he felt there was an underlying condition. I know I have elevated kryptopyrolles, and am compound heterozygous for MTHFR, but is that really enough to tax my adrenals? Perhaps not, but maybe it's a bunch of small conditions that are giving me little "paper cuts."

In any case, this really made me re-evaluate treating adrenal fatigue, and how using glandulars and taking massive doses of vitamin C, and having Dr. Lam tell you that you'll get better in 3 years if your lucky may not be the correct path. It assumes your adrenals can't fix or right themselves as quickly as any other organ can.


Thoughts? Do you believe your adrenals need a long period of time to heal? Or do they need a "burden" to be lifted from them?

Yep, Dr. Rind is my doc and I also have AF. I have spent the last year with him trying to find the "root cause" of my AF (mold? Lyme? heavy metals?). Nothing has helped and I'm as low energy as ever.

 

[drob31]

Yep, Dr. Rind is my doc and I also have AF. I have spent the last year with him trying to find the "root cause" of my AF (mold? Lyme? heavy metals?). Nothing has helped and I'm as low energy as ever.

Has he tested you for autoimmune conditions?

 

[bertiedog]

Yep, Dr. Rind is my doc and I also have AF. I have spent the last year with him trying to find the "root cause" of my AF (mold? Lyme? heavy metals?). Nothing has helped and I'm as low energy as ever.

I have virtual adrenal insufficiency but despite medication for this I suffered in the way you mention feeling exhausted without doing much. What has worked for me to turn things around was loosely following the Cowden Protocol for Lyme (there is a thread on this). I started it last September and started getting improvements in energy within 3 months and this improvement has continued. Before I started it I would get lots of dizziness and overstimulation of my central nervous system but this only rarely happens now.

Last year I did have the LTT test for borrelia from Infectolab and got 3 positive results plus the co-infection Ehrlichia. The only downside of Cowden is it can be expensive but they do run a scheme where one can get it a reduced prices. Nutramedix are the manufactures of the herbals.

Pam

 

[Kir]

One thing that really made me think was when Dr. Rinds assistant (former astrophysicist, don't ask), mentioned that while I went through a few traumatic events, and this was 4 months ago, that people come back from war and don't have adrenal fatigue. That sort of put it into perspective.

To say that people when have been to war don't come back with adrenal fatigue is not only incorrect, but beyond generalizing. Not everyone who has been to war comes back with PTSD either, but a huge majority of them do. I spoke to an expert once who treated vets and he said that PTSD was often linked to a sudden or cumulative onset of severe adrenal exhaustion, brought on by trauma, and in their case, war. As someone who is married to a vet with PTSD and AF issues, the two have been linked. With all due respect your doctor's assistant should have remained an astrophysicist, and not speculated on things he clearly does not know about. All of my AF issues started after traumatic events in my life and I have been told that I have a form of PTSD as well.

 

[drob31]

To say that people when have been to war don't come back with adrenal fatigue is not only incorrect, but beyond generalizing. Not everyone who has been to war comes back with PTSD either, but a huge majority of them do. I spoke to an expert once who treated vets and he said that PTSD was often linked to a sudden or cumulative onset of severe adrenal exhaustion, brought on by trauma, and in their case, war. As someone who is married to a vet with PTSD and AF issues, the two have been linked. With all due respect your doctor's assistant should have remained an astrophysicist, and not speculated on things he clearly does not know about. All of my AF issues started after traumatic events in my life and I have been told that I have a form of PTSD as well.

I agree with you. I think the point I was going for was that stress and AF issues aren't just a permanent reaction, but rather, there is an underlying issue that causes them to persist.

I no longer see Rind (or do I agree with his practice).

 

[heapsreal]

I agree with you. I think the point I was going for was that stress and AF issues aren't just a permanent reaction, but rather, there is an underlying issue that causes them to persist.

I no longer see Rind (or do I agree with his practice).

Also other occupations like police, ambulance etc dont necessarily have ptsd but do have hypervigilance, where they have multiple adrenaline rushes per shift, where someone in a normal occupation may get the odd adrenaline rush once a week say when someone cuts them off in traffic etc.

hypervigilance is a good thing to have in these jobs but i think long term can cause fatigue states such as adrenal type fatigue. Added to that mess is shift work and sleep deprivation. I believe all of that combined has more to do with burn out seen than ptsd type effects or seeing horrific situations.

im in emergency type work, now part time. Many say how do i do it with cfsme, well i dont know but i think when the heat is on the adrenaline gets me through. I often find after doing a job with high pressure, i than go into a slump and its hard to concentrate especially trying to do paperwork afterwards. I'm also a vegetable on days off, so its a constant push crash .

Why do i do it, i dont know. I dont think I could get disability for cfsme. I guess im a stable push crash. Maybe all the things i do are helping me to keep functioning and i do take alot of ttreatments etc. I do like what i do but also its easier said than done to just change jobs.

One day something will snap i guess but im holding out until i can get my kids through high school. 2 yrs to go than I will make a big decision on what i will do.

 

[ahmo]

I'm also a vegetable on days off, so its a constant push crash .

 

[heapsreal]

The working vegetable. Haha
i think theres a few of us

 

[Tourist]

I posted another thread about my visit with Dr. Bruce Rind the other day, however I wanted to shed light on his latest thought processes when it comes to treating thyroid/adrenal dysfunction, and perhaps diagnoses of CFS like issues.

You may have seen Dr. Rind's temperature graphs, they are all over the place, and also his website has a plethora of information about metabolic issues, including adrenal and thyroid issues:

http://www.drrind.com/

Some of his work is pretty well known when it comes to treating thyroid and adrenal issues. However, it seems as Dr. Rind's opinions of these things has evolved over the years. He's not the same Dr. Rind that you read about on his website. Given my lab work, which for the most part is within normal boundaries (low t3, anomalous cortisol rhythm) Dr. Rind doesn't look to give me thyroid meds for my thyroid or even support my adrenals with glandulars. Rather, he states that I have hypothyroid symptoms possibly because my adrenal glands are malfunctioning (nothing new), and that is not solved by giving me a supplement, rather he believes something is taxing the adrenal gland, such as a deficiency, toxicity, or infection (bacteria, virus, auto immune reaction). He thought my adrenals were being taxed because of mold or lyme. I'm investigating this now, but it makes a very important distinction:

Your adrenal glands don't get fatigued. They're dysfunctioning for a reason. Solve the mystery and everything is healed. It flys in the face of what countless ND Dr.s are saying about treating adrenal fatigue and it taking 2-3 years to heal. Just be patient for a couple of years, sleep 10 hours a night, never drink caffeine, never stay up late, never go out partying, never stray off your diet, take 100 supplements produced by a company that I make money from, then in 3 years, you'll be healed.

So according to this thought process: There is no such thing as adrenal fatigue, coming from one of the original "adrenal fatigue" doctors.


I'm not saying I agree with him, but based on his analysis of me, he felt there was an underlying condition. I know I have elevated kryptopyrolles, and am compound heterozygous for MTHFR, but is that really enough to tax my adrenals? Perhaps not, but maybe it's a bunch of small conditions that are giving me little "paper cuts."

In any case, this really made me re-evaluate treating adrenal fatigue, and how using glandulars and taking massive doses of vitamin C, and having Dr. Lam tell you that you'll get better in 3 years if your lucky may not be the correct path. It assumes your adrenals can't fix or right themselves as quickly as any other organ can.


Thoughts? Do you believe your adrenals need a long period of time to heal? Or do they need a "burden" to be lifted from them?

I'd love to chat with you about dr rind--I just saw him and am on the fence about going back

 

[aquaster]

I am a patient of Dr. Rind's. From my experience of having "adrenal fatigue" (low cortisol all day, i'm a flatliner), for like at least 6 or 7 years now...No, it doesn't get cured from sleeping a lot, taking glandulars, salt, vitamin C, no caffeine, clean diet with lots of veggies, protein, and good fats, reducing stress, blah blah blah. Yes, all of those things make me feel like I'm not going to fall off a cliff and I'd feel MUCH worse if I didn't do them, but in NO WAY have they moved the needle on my cortisol production or chronic fatigue. I do believe I have something underlying that is dragging down my adrenals. The question is, WTH is it. I've done lots of things, had lots of tests. But there has yet to have been a smoking gun. Could candida being doing all of this? Is it the bad gut bugs that showed up in my stool test? I'm working on both of those things and have been for a while but that hasn't fixed it as of yet either.

One thing that Dr. Rind has me on now is Bravo Probiotic Yogurt. It's supposed to make GcMAF in your gut, whatever that is. Perhaps some people here knows more about that then I. But apparently in helps the immune system so it can fight what infections might be hanging out, causing problems. I have definitely noticed die-off with the Bravo so I feel some hope that it might be doing something.

Emily