Dr. David Bell on Chronic Lyme disease and ME/CFS

[Sushi]

Ask the Doctor: Can ME/CFS Be Caused by Lyme Disease?

By David S. Bell MD

Question: 1) Can Lyme disease result in permanent ME, even if all signs of the bacteria are gone? Can the Borellia bacteria that causes Lyme Disease also cause ME? Which is worse: severe ME, or severe Lyme Disease?....

In the intervening years, I saw many persons who had been diagnosed with chronic Lyme. The symptom pattern, along with the onset pattern, response to antibiotics, and questionable laboratory results led me to believe that there was no difference between ME/CFS and chronic Lyme. I have no doubt, however, that some persons with ME/CFS have their disease initiated by the Lyme organism.

read more at the link above.

 

[duncan]

Well, it's good that he got at least some of it right.

 

[justy]

Well, it's good that he got at least some of it right.

which bits did he get wrong Duncan? I thought it was a good answer - honest and the most we know at the moment. As he says a a shame they didn't do further work and publish anything on the samples at the time - a missed opportunity only in retrospect I guess.

 

[duncan]

I have no idea what I was speaking to.

Let me see if I can remember.

ETA: Ok I remember. He equated chronic Lyme with ME/CFS. I think this is worth challenging.

But I agree with most of what else he says, e.g. Lyme like many viruses can lead to or trigger ME/CFS

 

[duncan]

Confusing chronic Lyme for ME/CFS is different than saying they are one and the same. I think it is easy to confuse the two. Many individuals diagnosed with chronic Lyme may have ME/CFS, and visa versa. You can also have both simultaneously, as some of us on this forum can attest.

But acute Lyme that devolves into chronicity after treatment - or despite it - is chronic Lyme. The active agent behind the symptoms is Borrelia in chronic Lyme. Late Stage Lyme that does not respond to treatment is chronic Lyme. PTLDS is a different matter that may or may not be based on reality.

At least, that's how I see it.

But just like certain viruses, Lyme can lead to ME/CFS. When it triggers ME/CFS, the symptoms are not attributable to Borrelia.

Distinguishing the two becomes problematic in the face of dicey diagnostics. Swollen knees and PEM and NK function are a few things that address that.

I hope I am making sense here and not pissing anybody off. Bad brain day; hard to tell. This is all just my probably incoherent opinion.

 

[msf]

My incoherent opinion (I like this disclaimer) is that ME is a combination of a chronic bacterial infection and the resulting autoinmune/immunological changes.

 

[duncan]

Intracellular infections, in particular, make things a little hairy.