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Dr. Chia Produces New Form of Oxymatrine

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Cort, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Japanese Research Effort

    Hi Shiso, I'm getting a kind of lukewarm feeling about the much lauded Japanese Research effort on ME/CFS. They didn't really show much at the Reno conferences; just investigating a few traditional energy supplements - it didn't seem like much.

    What is your impression coming from over there?
  2. shiso

    shiso Senior Member

    Japanese ME/CFS research

    Hi Cort,

    I too get the impression that the recent ME/CFS research effort here is lukewarm, if that. Research seems to be more focused on "fatigue" in general, rather than ME/CFS.

    My layperson search of Japanese websites and material available to the public reveals little evidence of recent progressive research into ME/CFS. Of course, it could just be that the research just doesn't make it out to the public. There's definitely no Japanese website like yours, no national organization for patients like the CAA, and the few websites run by patients report news from the States and Europe, not Japan. (I seriously don't know how regular Japanese ME/CFS patients deal!)

    I've read that when CFS first made an international buzz in the 90s, the Japanese government set up a special task force to investigate CFS, set up diagnostic criteria and a bunch of real research articles about biological abnormalities found in CFS patients cropped up around the same time. I don't think the task force exists anymore, even though there is a lot money spent on reducing the impact of "fatigue" on public health which as we know isn't the same thing.
  3. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Thanks Shiso - tough place to have ME/CFS indeed! I'd love to hear what your impressions of your November visit if you feel inclined to tell them. Good luck with it.:eek:
  4. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Dr. Chia On Oxymatrine, Autoimmunity, ME/CFS and FM

    Dr. Chia posted a lengthy response to some of the questions asked regarding the last Oxymatrine post. (I added the headers)

    Dr. John Chia:

    Interferon and Oxymatrine: First of all, oxymatrine or equilibrant is used alone without interferon in almost all of the patients. I only used interferon-alpha 2a to help reducing the muscles pain often worsened by the use of oxymatrine. Interferon was used in patients who had major relapses immediately following discontinuation of this immune modulator and marked increase of myalgia with restart of 1/2 tablet of the herbal product. The use of interferon helped the patient to get back to full doses of oxymatrine within a 2-3 week period. The use of interferon does not increase the overall response to the herbal product.

    Fibromyalgia and ME/CFS: Altered Immune Responses - What I have learned from the use of the immune modulator is dose titration. The needs for patients are usually different depending on the symptoms.

    The tolerance issue depends on ones immune response, the tissue viral load and the organs involved. As we have shown with the cytokine gene expression studies, patient with severe fibromyalia actually did not have quite as bad Th2/Th1 imbalance, as comparing to patients with debilitating fatigue without as much myalgia. Conversely, the viral proteins seen in the stomach biopsy are much more abundant in CFS patients than that in fibromyalgia patients (unpublished data). CFS and fibromyalgia are probably the two ends of the same spectrum: one end has much more viruses but little immune response, the other end has few viruses in the tissues but very severe and yet ineffective inflammatory response. I have often seen patients progress from severe CFS to fibromyalgia over several years.

    FM and ME/CFS: Dosing - This may be the reason that fibromyalgia patients do not need much more immune stimulation. I use the herbs at very low-doses in these patients hoping the complex immune response can rebalance itself. In my experience, higher doses would only produce more inflammatory symptoms (myalgia etc.) and not better than lower doses.

    Autoimmunity and Oxymatrine: (Dr. Chia suggested that patients with autoimmune tendencies should not take Oxymatrine. ) Autoimmune tendency means a strong family history of autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, autoimmune thyroiditis (especially Graves disease), multiple sclerosis, and if the patients have joint pain with positive rheumatoid factor and persistently positive ANA. With the use of other potent Chinese herbs and oxymatrine over the last several years, we have seen two patients develop rheumatoid arthritis (presented at the Reno meeting and London IiME, London meeting).

    I believe that the main reason that CFS patients are symptomatic are due to continuing inflammatory response toward viruses living within the cells, enteroviruses in most of the cases I see. The attack is dominated by Th2, which needs to be shifted toward Th1, as is with the use of the herbs. However, an excessive shift toward Th1 in a patient who has autoimmune tendencies could potentially start off an unregulated Th1 response (autoimmune response) that will require immunosuppressant to rebalance the immune response. This is why the herbal product should not be used in patients with autoimmune tendency.

    Enteroviruses trigger Autoimmune Responses As Well:
    We have clearly documented certain enterovirus infections triggering autoimmune responses in some patients that require steroids and other immunosuppressive drugs to control the overreactive and damaging response. Some simple markers for this type of response are high erythrocyte sedimentation rate, c-reactive protein and sometimes high white blood count. Immunosuppressive therapies are detrimental in CFS patients, as I have learned many years ago. Virus-induced immune response can be partly autoimmune in nature, as being argued for type 1 diabetes and chronic viral myocarditis. Steroids and other immunosuppressive drugs are of no benefits, and in fact harmful in these diseases.

    Acute rheumatic fever is clearly an autoimmune disease induced by Group A streptococcal throat infections. When the immune response occurs against certain protein sequences of the bacteria (M protein) that are similar to human proteins in the brain, joints and heart, then the patient would develop chorea, carditis and arthritis. The mainstay of treatment is anti-inflammatory drugs for the inflammation, but one has to give antibiotic to kill off streptococcus in the throat. If the inciting pathogen is killed, then the autoimmune response would usually subside within a few months with anti-inflammatory treatment.

    Can you imaging how we would feel if there are viruses surviving in our muscles, brains, hearts and gastrointestinal tracts triggering ongoing immune responses?

    Lack of Effective Enteroviral Drug:
    What has been difficult to sort out the dominant role of enterovirus or the immune response is a lack of an effective antiviral drug. If intracellular enteroviruses are attracting and directing (believe it or not) the immune response, then suppression of virus activity will allow cessation of immune response. We clearly have seen this concept proven correct in HIV/AIDS patients. Few years from now, we hope to have drugs to arrest the viruses that are making our immune response angry. Before that happens, the debate on virus or immune response will continue without end.

    Interestingly, the use of antibiotics for Mycoplasma has no clear benefit in most patients with CFS/fibromyalgia and GWS. This may mean that Mycoplasma is not important in these diseases. The benefit seen in some patients may be due to the way the antibiotics (doxycycline, zithromax) modulate the immune system rather than the antimicrobial effect, as we have seen in patients with rheumatoid arthritis.
  5. kolowesi

    kolowesi Senior Member

    Central Texas
    Cort Dr. Chia's answers

    This is just invaluable!

    Thank you so much, for knowing which questions to ask and for getting these answers for us.

    Even though I've been dx'ed with "mild" lupus, I'm still considering oxymatrine. I have viral, bacterial, fungal, and microbial infex.

    I've had autoimmune flares from transfer factor (not supposed to happen), from allergy shots, from immune boosters (particularly the combo of Del-Immune V and ImmunExtra), from exposure to tobacco, from certain hormones (pregnenolone and estriol), from sun exposure.

    Antibiotics have always helped my autoimmune, and I'm interested that he says it's the immune modulation rather than the bacteriostatic action.

    Now that I am taking high dose antibiotics for Lyme, I'm feeling worse, but so far, no autoimmune.

    Much to chew on. Many thanks.

  6. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Latest from Sophora

    Latest message from the producers of Equilibriant:

    Thanks for passing on the feedback. We are currently working out the issue.

    Users, who are experiencing difficulty ordering, can call 310 683 9701.
  7. Jim

    Jim Senior Member


    i will probably give this herb a shot, tho i am curious about how those with an auto-immune problem may not be good candidates for it. so, i was wondering if the following immune system profile would fall under an auto-immune one. test results have been:

    * high RNase L activity
    * high elastase
    * slightly high b-cells
    * low natural killer cell activity

    as for family history, the only example of auto-immunity is that my mother has grave's disease.

    if anyone has a sense if the above makes me an auto-immune case, an thus perhaps not a good candidate for this herb, feel free to let me know.


  8. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Dr. Chia on Autoimmunity

    Forgot to post this from the blog.

    Dr. Chia posted a lengthy response to some of the questions asked regarding the last Oxymatrine post. (I added the headers)

  9. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    Last couple of times I took Doxy, I felt much better.....This was with a definite negative Micoplasma, CPN,and Lyme. I wonder if I would still get that response after being on Vistide now for 9 months and killing mega virus' and with labs showing dramatic immune system re-balance. I lean towards a still unidentified infection as the reason for my positive response to Doxy. But, it is very interesting that so many people do respond to it. If Doxy's positive action is just the re-balancing to of Th1 & Th2, then something like Naltrexone may work just as well for me without wiping out all the gut flora, and further damaging the Leaky Gut I am trying to heal. Or maybe this Oxymatrine is a possibililty. I need to ask Dr Peterson next week. Or has someone done this?
  10. slevah



    I'm new here and hope I am not out of line; but, I'm bothered by two things: 1) there is titanium dioxide in it which is considered a carcinogen and has become controversial (I'm trying to avoid/purchase nutriceudicals without it) ;and 2, the price for the number of tablets you get. The price I could overcome if it works, but I don't really want to ingest the titanium dioxide.
  11. kolowesi

    kolowesi Senior Member

    Central Texas
    Equilibrant and autoimmune

    My antrum biopsy came back positive for enterovirus and CMV. I have been trying Equilibrant for a week, just one tablet a day. The person on the phone warned me "Start slowly."

    Also, a friend from the HHV-6 forum (Jstefl) has seen promising results over 6 months. He was taking NT Factor along with oxymatrine. He said he should have started at a lower dose, and to give it time.

    Recently, he painted his deck, fixed his truck, upped his daily walk to 4-5 miles, etc.

    I tried to get him to come over to this forum, but he's too busy:):)

    Some thoughts on the autoimmune: I've had positive ANA most of the time and positive RF (rheumatoid factor) once. When in a flare, I have the butterfly rash across my face, joint pain, hair loss, scalp pain, low-grade fever, even worse fatigue and depression.

    My autoimmune triggers are things like certain forms of estrogen, sunlight, and tobacco smoke, but also, some immune boosters.

    I was dx'ed with "mild lupus," and my dad had ankylosing spondylitis.

    This year I found out I have Lyme. I've been taking doxycycline (for autoimmune and mycoplasma) on and off for years, and it always helped, but it wasn't a Lyme-killing dose. Now I've been on a killer dose (haha) for 6 months.

    Flagyl gave me bad arthritis, extreme joint pain and stiffness, but no swelling. My usual autoimmune is swollen joints, and I didn't have the facial rash, or other symptoms, so I think the drug was killing Lyme Bb cysts in my joints. I cut back the dose and take it 1 week out of the month.

    OK, sorry I wandered off here, but it's complicated. I think the Lyme bacteria was causing a lot of my autoimmune and that I will be able to address enterovirus now that I've been on Lyme tx for a while.

    We shall see.

    FWIW, high RNase-L, low NK cell function, etc. are not autoimmune as my doc would define it. Rather, look for positive ANA and RF and/or positive antibodies to double-stranded DNA. I do have a couple of other things, slight Hashimoto's and coagulation defects, but those seem to be under control.

    The titanium dioxide might be an issue, wonder why it's in there? I'm not MCS now, though I used to be, so it's not bothering me. Maybe give them a call and ask about MCS?

    Sorry I can't remember everyone's names. My brain fog is not better yet.

  12. consuegra

    consuegra Senior Member


    In regards to the caution expressed by Dr. Chia for using Oxymatrine with persons with "autoimmune tendencies" I imagine that he would express the same caution in using Isoprinosine, Transfer Factors and Nexavir?

  13. Cloud

    Cloud Guest

    I've never been able to take "Immune Stimulants", but do very well on certain Immune modulators.
  14. Frank

    Frank Senior Member

  15. undercover707


    Ordering did not work for me

    I had the same expirience as "kolowesi". I contacted the customer support.
  16. kolowesi

    kolowesi Senior Member

    Central Texas
    Equilibrant update

    As for ordering, they contacted me by email when they picked up my repeated attempts to order online. I requested a phone call and was called within an hour. I received the product 2 or 3 days later.

    After 9 days at 200 mg, I discontinued because of some autoimmune signs. They receded immediately, then I caught the flu, so it's hard to know what was what.

    I am still not back on my feet from the flu or who knows what, and have just started xifaxan for the H2S problem. That will be a one week treatment (and a lifelong diet change).

    After I get past xifaxan and whatever this flu thing is, I will try Equilibrant at 100 mg per day.

    Yes, S504476, that product you found looks quite similar. The only caveat I would add is that Dr. Chia said the source matters. I don't know if he meant the source for the oxymatrine he used to use, or the source for shrubby sophora itself. Also, Equilibrant contains olive leaf. Not sure if the mushrooms are the same either. But a good find, quite possibly.

  17. undercover707


    The website credit card payment does not work. I contacted the customer support and this is what they replied within one hour:

  18. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Oxymatrine Special for Phoenix Rising Forum Participants

    Just got this email from Andrew Chia. The oxymatrine website is fixed and they're offering a bit of promotion for us :))). If you're planning to check out Oxymatrine this might be a good time.

  19. mojoey

    mojoey Senior Member

    awesome cort

    thanks for posting this
  20. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Anyone try this w/out a stomach biopsy?

    is anyone trying this empirically, w/out testing, w/out a biopsy?

    It seems it can be heavy going from the feedback I've read. I'd like to try it .. but can't see myself doing the stomach biopsy that Dr Chia normally requires.


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