Doxycycline -- effect on intestinal flora

[jen1177]

I've taken antibiotics for years for various reasons. Since I've worked in healthcare for many years and see first hand the consequences of taking the antibiotics, I've always taken probiotics, and more recently Kefir, WITH any antibiotic to ensure I have constant replenishment of good bacteria.

A friend of my parents is about to have the fecal transplant from his wife after suffering for a very long time with C. diff.

I have been taking probiotics for over a decade...they used to have an effect, but now they don't seem to do anything but cause bloating or have no effect at all. I tried taking probiotics while on doxy but I got very sick (flu-like) each time so I stopped. I figured the AB was killing off the probiotics immediately and the die-off was making me sick.
Now I'm pursuing home made yogurt (from almond milk--I can't eat dairy or soy) and home made sauerkraut. And also taking new probiotics that I've never taken before like soil based ones (Prescript Assist) and this other probiotic mixture I found at a health food store that has lots of strains I've never heard of.
I have thought about a fecal transplant, but the sad thing is I don't know anyone who is healthy or who I'd feel comfortable having as the fecal donor. Plus I read that it only brings minimal improvements if any at all. I've been considering making my own home made probiotic enema, but I'm not there yet.
Oh, man. Good luck to us all.

 

[jen1177]

i have read about some of the "bad" bacteria can become a problem for some on certain ABs. the sacchromyce bouldarri is recommended, among other things. Are the probiotics really the same as that we got from our mom, and food growing up. Can we really get back to where things were before AB treatment ? .

Yeah, I wonder if a lot of my chronic health problems were caused by being on ABs a lot when I was a kid and then also a teenager for acne. I have tried taking Sacchro. boulardii a couple of times. It seems to make me flush (feel hot and turn red). This concerns me. I guess I should try it again, though. I am pursuing a lot of other probiotic sources...I went into detail in a previous post reply to JT1024 in this thread. I think it's right above this post.

Anyway, good luck to you and thanks for the suggestion.

 

[jen1177]

For me it wasn't enough to take probiotics after a course of AB's. This stopped having any effect after about 10 years. This was after I tried some of the different AB regimes (pulsing and switching). The reaction for me was not just the gut symptoms but an all over worsening of my health.
I'm very sceptical of the Herx effect as explaining all the bad reactions we get from them.

It wasn't until I hit on the combo of Valtrex, Imunovir and then added AB's that I could get through a course of them feeling a little better than when I started. That still left the stomach issues to deal with and the MAF314 is helping.

We are all guinea pigs here to some extent. Really sorry Jen, that you have been put through this.

Yeah, I'm with you on the skepticism about Herxing.
And the same thing happened to me with probiotics...they used to have a beneficial effect as far as keeping my bowels a little bit more regular and having less acne and allergies...but now they don't seem to do much.
Antivirals are one of the things I have not tried yet. I should probably look into it...
Feel better and thanks for the reply.

 

[Lotus97]

Probiotics caused a herx in me. Some of the symptoms of herx are explained though. The herx causes inflammatory cytokines and the inflammatory cytokines cause the symptoms. Also, various neurotoxins are released when pathogens are killed.

 

[ukxmrv]

The symptoms of the herx and the herx actually occurring is just a theory in CFS and ME. We don't know what happens in the bodies of PWCFS and ME who take drugs. The reactions could be anything.

 

[Lotus97]

The symptoms of the herx and the herx actually occurring is just a theory in CFS and ME. We don't know what happens in the bodies of PWCFS and ME who take drugs. The reactions could be anything.

It might be true that something that feels like a herx is actually from something else, but as far as Herxheimer reactions causing inflammatory cytokines I think that's pretty well established.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8769625
Pentoxifylline fails to prevent the Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction or associated cytokine release.
Abstract
The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction (JHR) observed after antibiotic treatment of relapsing fever caused by Borrelia recurrentis is associated with the systemic appearance of cytokines. The decrease of cytokine production and block of JHR was attempted by administering pentoxifylline prior to antibiotic treatment. Fifteen patients with confirmed relapsing fever were infused intravenously with pentoxifylline 90 min before intramuscular injection of penicillin; 4 patients were not treated with pentoxifylline. All patients developed JHR to varying degrees. Treatment with pentoxifylline failed to prevent fever, increase in pulse, respiration, or blood pressure, or decrease in white blood cell count. No reduction of circulating levels of tumor necrosis factor, interleukin 6, or interleukin-8 was observed with pentoxifylline treatment. Pentoxifylline did not prevent clearance of the B. recurrentis spirochetes. Thus, pentoxifylline treatment of patients with relapsing fever fails to prevent or diminish JHR or the associated cytokine release observed after appropriate antibiotic treatment.

 

[ukxmrv]

I'm not saying that the Herx reaction doesn't exist. Years ago I read up on all the history around how it was named/discovered at. If you look back over time you'll see how the effect was explained away by different reactions on the body (and the same with the Lyme reactions). They didn't have the testing we have today. As an example when does a JHR become IRIS.

What I am saying is exactly what you quoted of mine. We don't know what happens in the bodies of PWME and CFS who take drugs. Reactions could be anything. Something good, something bad, something dangerous.

(and BTW 15 patients isn't enough to "well establish" anything)

 

[adreno]

The Hadza people seem to do fine without bifido bacteria. Makes me wonder if they are really needed?

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140415/ncomms4654/full/ncomms4654.html

 

[valentinelynx]

I strongly recommend taking saccharomyces boulardii (Florastor) if you are taking antibiotics that may cause C diff (most of them except metronidazole).

Also, I'm pretty sure that Protomyxzoa Rheumatica is a figment of a certain person's imagination. Sigh, there I've said it.